YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[Lohoris]

Agreed on all points you make here. I doubt on # of individual direct customer numbers we are even close to 1/10th of BFL numbers.

Thank you for you service to our country.

Now how the hell did get through all that without swearing at each other. LOL

We must be the 2 politest people on BCT.

Yes it was refreshing to read this conversation, gg guys!
: )

[1714999298]

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[bcp19]

(I refuse to buy the overpriced toys AM sells)
[...]
I currently make more from 5 CPUs mining XPM than I will likely make from my Jalapeno when I receive it, but that matters not to me.

Please take no offence, but this sounds to me like a contradiction.

First you say you don't want "overpriced toys", then you say that it "doesn't matter to you" if you chose a suboptimal money-making strategy.

Either you are in it for the money (and you should use optimal strategy) or you are in it for the lulz (and "toys" should do just fine, especially if you can actually have them instead of being of imaginary thin air).

It's simple... when I purchased I had a choice between a $250 USB and a $274 Jalapeno.  I knew from my GPU that I'd never make 2BTC from that USB (It was averaging .005BTC which = 400 days with no dif inc).  I also knew there were 11 months of orders ahead of me on the Jala even though they were shipping (20 July at that time).  I could not afford anything but these 2 items, so I ignored the expensive toy that had people drooling and paying 2-3x AM's selling price and bought the Jala which was 15x as powerful.  I've left my GPU running(300MH) since my purchase and I'm at 0.67372445 BTC since 2 days before I ordered.

My computers will be running whether I mine BTC or LTC or XPM or even go back to Mersenne (kinda doubtful... I like seeing the pennies roll in).  The GPU is reaching the end of it's useful life and eventually I'll have the Jalapeno.  This is more of a game to me... see what I can do with it.  I nearly doubled my earnings by investing in AM shares.  I've had good and bad investments, but overall the game has been good to me.  I'm curious where this game will end up 10 or 20 years down the road.  Half the fun is getting there.

[Inaba]

The supply chain issues would also not work.  Chip technology today is in many different sizes.  180nm, 150nm, 110nm, 90nm, 65nm, 55nm 28nm.  I doubt you could send the same specs to 2 different foundries and get the same results.  I could be wrong.  But from the foundries they have to be sent to a bumping facility.  Somewhere in there the chips have to be 'binned'.  I asked a question about binning and was told Grade B and lower were only used on Jalapenos.  Grade A normally encompases only 60% of a wafer of chips, however I was also told that a majority of the Grade B were testing out at Grade A, so it sounds like they had a good FAB there.  From there you need to populate the boards.  Unless foundries have bumping facilities, you already have 4 different companies working together between the foundry, bumping fac, PCB manufacturer and the Assemblers.  And the product isn't even to BFL yet.

Your foundry is simplicity indeed when compared to a chip foundry.

You can't "send specs" to multiple foundries.  You have to choose a foundry before you even begin a project, because each foundry has their own tools, methods and expectations.  Once you choose a foundry, the only way you can switch is to basically start from scratch for the most part.  What many people seem to overlook is that BFL started out at 130nm (at one foundry), switched to 110nm, then to 90nm then to 65nm, with three foundry changes along the way.  The design process for the current generation chip started long before pre-orders were taken.

The comparison of Ridicuss' company and BFL is impossible on almost every level.  BFL did not have the resources, supply chain, personnel, etc... of a 60 year old company, nor does the established industry even exist that the mill enjoys.  65nm was brand new, state of the art just 7 years ago, not only is there not enough time to develop an industry similar to a steel mill around the 65nm node, the technology moves so fast that a robust industry like that would never even have time to develop. 

It's very easy to claim that "BFL should have done this. BFL should have done that. I would never do this.  I would never do that," but the simple fact of the matter is, pretty much any technology company that deals with end user customers on the scale of BFL or more has very little direct customer communication.  Why do you think this is?  It's not because they can't hire people to deal with them, it's because it's counterproductive, as we have now learned.  BFL is easily one of the most open privately held technology companies in operation today and by far and away the most open bitcoin ASIC developer and it's proven to be nothing but a detriment to our core business model. 

The reason you don't see the likes of Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, et al communicating with their customers is because it's harmful to their business (I'm not saying BFL is in the leagues of the above companies, by any means, just using them as an example).  They have the money and resources to engage their customers but they don't... they've already learned that customer engagement just leads to what we see here today.  Irrational, angry people lashing out as a coping strategy.

I tried and use a different tact when dealing with the exceptionally irrational person (usually not a customer), and it actually has it's merits but it's incredibly time consuming and probably on balance as a company grows I can't imagine it being a viable method as the customer base grows.  I do find it fascinating to watch the exaggeration, fabrication and misrepresentation of nearly every aspect of BFL grow almost daily.  Ridicuss' is a good example of either parroting what he's "heard" or exaggerating/fabricating imagined transgressions so that he can justify his actions to himself.  I have been impolite to very few actual customers, the majority of my ire has been directed at non-customers who are pot stirrers.  The few "customers" that have been the focus of my ire are the ones who are the most vocally irrational, rude and unacceptable of the bunch.  Again, I do enjoy pointing out the fact that I never start a vitriolic exchange, merely respond to it.  I've challenged every single nay-sayer to provide evidence that I've started an angry exchange and to date not a single person has been able to come up with the smoking gun.

The simple fact of the matter is, politeness and respect get the same in return.  Rude, irrational and angry gets what it deserves.  Be an adult and you'll be treated like one.  Be a spoiled, tantrum throwing child and you'll be treated like one.

[PuertoLibre]

The supply chain issues would also not work.  Chip technology today is in many different sizes.  180nm, 150nm, 110nm, 90nm, 65nm, 55nm 28nm.  I doubt you could send the same specs to 2 different foundries and get the same results.  I could be wrong.  But from the foundries they have to be sent to a bumping facility.  Somewhere in there the chips have to be 'binned'.  I asked a question about binning and was told Grade B and lower were only used on Jalapenos.  Grade A normally encompases only 60% of a wafer of chips, however I was also told that a majority of the Grade B were testing out at Grade A, so it sounds like they had a good FAB there.  From there you need to populate the boards.  Unless foundries have bumping facilities, you already have 4 different companies working together between the foundry, bumping fac, PCB manufacturer and the Assemblers.  And the product isn't even to BFL yet.

Your foundry is simplicity indeed when compared to a chip foundry.

You can't "send specs" to multiple foundries.  You have to choose a foundry before you even begin a project, because each foundry has their own tools, methods and expectations.  Once you choose a foundry, the only way you can switch is to basically start from scratch for the most part.  What many people seem to overlook is that BFL started out at 130nm (at one foundry), switched to 110nm, then to 90nm then to 65nm, with three foundry changes along the way.  The design process for the current generation chip started long before pre-orders were taken.

The comparison of Ridicuss' company and BFL is impossible on almost every level.  BFL did not have the resources, supply chain, personnel, etc... of a 60 year old company, nor does the established industry even exist that the mill enjoys.  65nm was brand new, state of the art just 7 years ago, not only is there not enough time to develop an industry similar to a steel mill around the 65nm node, the technology moves so fast that a robust industry like that would never even have time to develop.  

It's very easy to claim that "BFL should have done this. BFL should have done that. I would never do this.  I would never do that," but the simple fact of the matter is, pretty much any technology company that deals with end user customers on the scale of BFL or more has very little direct customer communication.  Why do you think this is?  It's not because they can't hire people to deal with them, it's because it's counterproductive, as we have now learned.  BFL is easily one of the most open privately held technology companies in operation today and by far and away the most open bitcoin ASIC developer and it's proven to be nothing but a detriment to our core business model.  

The reason you don't see the likes of Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, et al communicating with their customers is because it's harmful to their business (I'm not saying BFL is in the leagues of the above companies, by any means, just using them as an example).  They have the money and resources to engage their customers but they don't... they've already learned that customer engagement just leads to what we see here today.  Irrational, angry people lashing out as a coping strategy.

I tried and use a different tact when dealing with the exceptionally irrational person (usually not a customer), and it actually has it's merits but it's incredibly time consuming and probably on balance as a company grows I can't imagine it being a viable method as the customer base grows.  I do find it fascinating to watch the exaggeration, fabrication and misrepresentation of nearly every aspect of BFL grow almost daily.  Ridicuss' is a good example of either parroting what he's "heard" or exaggerating/fabricating imagined transgressions so that he can justify his actions to himself.  I have been impolite to very few actual customers, the majority of my ire has been directed at non-customers who are pot stirrers.  The few "customers" that have been the focus of my ire are the ones who are the most vocally irrational, rude and unacceptable of the bunch.  Again, I do enjoy pointing out the fact that I never start a vitriolic exchange, merely respond to it.  I've challenged every single nay-sayer to provide evidence that I've started an angry exchange and to date not a single person has been able to come up with the smoking gun.

The simple fact of the matter is, politeness and respect get the same in return.  Rude, irrational and angry gets what it deserves.  Be an adult and you'll be treated like one.  Be a spoiled, tantrum throwing child and you'll be treated like one.

Quoted for future references of false statements.

[Bicknellski]

Any more refunds given by BFL without having to resort to claw back techniques? Thought not. Shady.

[bcp19]

The comparison of Ridicuss' company and BFL is impossible on almost every level.  BFL did not have the resources, supply chain, personnel, etc... of a 60 year old company, nor does the established industry even exist that the mill enjoys.  65nm was brand new, state of the art just 7 years ago, not only is there not enough time to develop an industry similar to a steel mill around the 65nm node, the technology moves so fast that a robust industry like that would never even have time to develop. 

I have to accept blame for this one, I was under the impression that steel foundries had a much longer lead time.  I know from talking to my daughter that they do need a continuous supply of raw materials and that they run 7 days a week as the cost of refiring a cold furnace is far greater than keeping them running.  In my mind I envisioned a more complicated process taking days or weeks to complete.  Using that I figured an order made and begun, but not yet finished, would never get a refund if cancelled at this point due to the materials already being processed but not completed.

[Ridicuss]

The comparison of Ridicuss' company and BFL is impossible on almost every level.  BFL did not have the resources, supply chain, personnel, etc... of a 60 year old company, nor does the established industry even exist that the mill enjoys.  65nm was brand new, state of the art just 7 years ago, not only is there not enough time to develop an industry similar to a steel mill around the 65nm node, the technology moves so fast that a robust industry like that would never even have time to develop.  

I have to accept blame for this one, I was under the impression that steel foundries had a much longer lead time.  I know from talking to my daughter that they do need a continuous supply of raw materials and that they run 7 days a week as the cost of refiring a cold furnace is far greater than keeping them running.  In my mind I envisioned a more complicated process taking days or weeks to complete.  Using that I figured an order made and begun, but not yet finished, would never get a refund if cancelled at this point due to the materials already being processed but not completed.

Hey now, you cant have all the blame. You know math and electronics. I specialize in mining (not crypto) with many science based principals. I dont know how chip foundries work and it sounds very complicated on top of being brand new product I can actually see how things can get gacked very badly in short order. I apologize for my ignorance in the electronics part of the world. Thanks for the civil debate BCP!

Josh, I understand how you must feel being under attack most of the time but if you choose to treat those that are trying get at you like they are idiots, it really does make you look bad. The internet remembers my friend. I'm sure I have dues to pay in cyberspace that have not come around yet. But they will. And I will have to accept that.

[bcp19]

The comparison of Ridicuss' company and BFL is impossible on almost every level.  BFL did not have the resources, supply chain, personnel, etc... of a 60 year old company, nor does the established industry even exist that the mill enjoys.  65nm was brand new, state of the art just 7 years ago, not only is there not enough time to develop an industry similar to a steel mill around the 65nm node, the technology moves so fast that a robust industry like that would never even have time to develop.  

I have to accept blame for this one, I was under the impression that steel foundries had a much longer lead time.  I know from talking to my daughter that they do need a continuous supply of raw materials and that they run 7 days a week as the cost of refiring a cold furnace is far greater than keeping them running.  In my mind I envisioned a more complicated process taking days or weeks to complete.  Using that I figured an order made and begun, but not yet finished, would never get a refund if cancelled at this point due to the materials already being processed but not completed.

Hey now, you cant have all the blame. You know math and electronics. I specialize in mining (not crypto) with many science based principals. I dont know how chip foundries work and it sounds very complicated on top of being brand new product I can actually see how things can get gacked very badly in short order. I apologize for my ignorance in the electronics part of the world. Thanks for the civil debate BCP!

Josh, I understand how you must feel being under attack most of the time but if you choose to treat those that are trying get at you like they are idiots, it really does make you look bad. The internet remembers my friend. I'm sure I have dues to pay in cyberspace that have not come around yet. But they will. And I will have to accept that.

The animation is a bit long, but if you'd like to understand the chip creation a bit better(though still complicated)  you can check out http://www.umc.com/English/about/p_1.asp  The link to the Service flow is also informative.

[Xian01]

The simple fact of the matter is, politeness and respect get the same in return.  Rude, irrational and angry gets what it deserves.  Be an adult and you'll be treated like one.  Be a spoiled, tantrum throwing child and you'll be treated like one.

 I am Josh's complete lack of self-awareness.

[Bicknellski]

Still no refunds right? Still have to fight tooth and nail and file complaints to get a refund. That is the definition of shady.

[vayvanne]

Have sent complaints to FTC and BBB.
Will appeal to Kansas General Attorney soon.

[LostDutchman]

Inaba wrote:

"You can't "send specs" to multiple foundries.  You have to choose a foundry before you even begin a project, because each foundry has their own tools, methods and expectations.  Once you choose a foundry, the only way you can switch is to basically start from scratch for the most part.  What many people seem to overlook is that BFL started out at 130nm (at one foundry), switched to 110nm, then to 90nm then to 65nm, with three foundry changes along the way.  The design process for the current generation chip started long before pre-orders were taken."

Two words:

Competitive bidding.

One word:

Horseshit.

My $.02.



http://bflfraud.com/forums/index.php

[bcp19]

Inaba wrote:

"You can't "send specs" to multiple foundries.  You have to choose a foundry before you even begin a project, because each foundry has their own tools, methods and expectations.  Once you choose a foundry, the only way you can switch is to basically start from scratch for the most part.  What many people seem to overlook is that BFL started out at 130nm (at one foundry), switched to 110nm, then to 90nm then to 65nm, with three foundry changes along the way.  The design process for the current generation chip started long before pre-orders were taken."

Two words:

Competitive bidding.

One word:

Horseshit.

My $.02.



http://bflfraud.com/forums/index.php

You really should research chip foundries.  If you sent the same specs to 2 different foundries, the resulting chips would not be the same when completed.  In addition, not all foundries can handle everything down to 65nm.

If you really wanted to investigate... maybe you should goto the nearest post office there and ask the postmaster what kind of quantities they pick up from BFL daily.

My $.02.

[Bicknellski]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291205.0 <--- Need help getting a PayPal refund from BFL... check out this thread.

[LostDutchman]

This forum has been established to serve as a sort of memory hole for scam accusations against Butterfly Labs.

There is no intent to lure anyone away from any other forum, including this one and the forum linked to here is only intended to serve as a backup in case the proverbial defecation hits the air handler and various forum ADMINS and MODS are forced to remove posts.

We will staunchly resist any and all attempts to have posts removed and BFL supplicants will not be tolerated.

Our attorney has advised us that we are completely legal in this endeavour, so best wishes to you and yours and we are hoping for your financial restoration.

Go here:

http://bflfraud.com/forums/index.php

Thanks for looking!

[ipxtreme]

Just worked for me. Refunded both of my orders and upgraded shipping refunded. Never thought I would say this "thanks to PayPal".

[BTCscraper]

A few minutes ago, Paypal approved a reversal request for my 1st week of May order, 10 hours after I sent my request.

4 less jalapenos in the backlog.

[vulgartrendkill]

got the refund on my jala plus 2gh upgrde and also my 50gh single order all paid via paypal.

Now, in the mean time, someone at bfl has quickly deleted from their records that I purchased a 10gh upgrade ($500) and as they cannot find it on their records, they willl not refund me.

I have provided proof of the payment I sent and when but no joy.

I`ll give them a week to give me arefund then take further action.  Thats stealing.

[TLS freedom]

I just got the debt from BFL removed from my credit card!! Not hard. 

[svojoe]

If you paid with BTC like me,  Your hosed though I assume.... Like me...