YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[Bicknellski]

Reading comprehension, morans.

I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so

if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

(emphasis added)

I've made a lot of fiat money from BFL and if they deliver monarch and it has a superior hps/$ value to other offerings and I see that the queue is fulfilling well then yeah, I'll buy it. However, at this point in time it is clear to me that BFL has serious engineering gaps and for all I know are bleeding cash directly into Chapter 7 so no I am not going to put my money into a pie in the sky offering. When ASICs were first announced, the bump in hps/$ (4,000%) justified the risk of investment, a risk that paid off huge for me. The move from 65nm to 28nm isn't even a 278% boost. I've made more than that holding coins in the last month.

+1 measured and well thought out response. Take heed of what Fjordbit is saying. No hate, no bs, no axe to grind... just a clear risk assessment versus holding coin.

"so no I am not going to put my money into a pie in the sky offering."  <--- that is the line that needs to be highlighted for newbies coming into this forum who might consider BFL Monarch's.

If you are not basing decisions off the very limited number of people who actually gained off BFL equipment then you probably deserve to get ripped off.

[Bicknellski]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!

You would think right? My opinion this goes down as more evidence that BFL lacks an ethical foundation. They are untrustworthy and should be avoided.

[th3joker]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!

You would think right? My opinion this goes down as more evidence that BFL lacks an ethical foundation. They are untrustworthy and should be avoided.

It's all dependent on how far you are willing to push with PayPal etc, I just kept insisting and escalating it until I found someone who would help. We funded some through our bank account so it is definitely possible to get a refund if you kick and scream enough.

The experience leaves you somewhat jaded and it cost a lot of time and effort for many people including BFL, I guess they just hope you'll go away eventually.

Persist and you will get there eventually, complete waste of time and effort yes but if its worth not allowing a company with no moral compass to screw you over then go for it.

Shame on this forum for having their morality bought and sold for bitcoin fever. It's like the Wild West all over again. Gold Fever has nothing on bitcoin.

[vulgartrendkill]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!

You would think right? My opinion this goes down as more evidence that BFL lacks an ethical foundation. They are untrustworthy and should be avoided.

It's all dependent on how far you are willing to push with PayPal etc, I just kept insisting and escalating it until I found someone who would help. We funded some through our bank account so it is definitely possible to get a refund if you kick and scream enough.

The experience leaves you somewhat jaded and it cost a lot of time and effort for many people including BFL, I guess they just hope you'll go away eventually.

Persist and you will get there eventually, complete waste of time and effort yes but if its worth not allowing a company with no moral compass to screw you over then go for it.

Shame on this forum for having their morality bought and sold for bitcoin fever. It's like the Wild West all over again. Gold Fever has nothing on bitcoin.

I have still not received my refund of 500 dollars (for an upgrade on an order that does not exist since I have a refund of it.)

My payment was made by direct transfer.  stupid me for not doing my research.

But basically, what I've had done to me is theft. Plain and simple.

[th3joker]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!

You would think right? My opinion this goes down as more evidence that BFL lacks an ethical foundation. They are untrustworthy and should be avoided.

It's all dependent on how far you are willing to push with PayPal etc, I just kept insisting and escalating it until I found someone who would help. We funded some through our bank account so it is definitely possible to get a refund if you kick and scream enough.

The experience leaves you somewhat jaded and it cost a lot of time and effort for many people including BFL, I guess they just hope you'll go away eventually.

Persist and you will get there eventually, complete waste of time and effort yes but if its worth not allowing a company with no moral compass to screw you over then go for it.

Shame on this forum for having their morality bought and sold for bitcoin fever. It's like the Wild West all over again. Gold Fever has nothing on bitcoin.

I have still not received my refund of 500 dollars (for an upgrade on an order that does not exist since I have a refund of it.)

My payment was made by direct transfer.  stupid me for not doing my research.

But basically, what I've had done to me is theft. Plain and simple.

It's disgusting and quite frankly I would never deal with them again, because they're willing to lie, cheat and steal from their customers.

There should be no place in anyone's world for that kind of self serving parasitic behaviour.

Where are you based?

[vulgartrendkill]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!

You would think right? My opinion this goes down as more evidence that BFL lacks an ethical foundation. They are untrustworthy and should be avoided.

It's all dependent on how far you are willing to push with PayPal etc, I just kept insisting and escalating it until I found someone who would help. We funded some through our bank account so it is definitely possible to get a refund if you kick and scream enough.

The experience leaves you somewhat jaded and it cost a lot of time and effort for many people including BFL, I guess they just hope you'll go away eventually.

Persist and you will get there eventually, complete waste of time and effort yes but if its worth not allowing a company with no moral compass to screw you over then go for it.

Shame on this forum for having their morality bought and sold for bitcoin fever. It's like the Wild West all over again. Gold Fever has nothing on bitcoin.

I have still not received my refund of 500 dollars (for an upgrade on an order that does not exist since I have a refund of it.)

My payment was made by direct transfer.  stupid me for not doing my research.

But basically, what I've had done to me is theft. Plain and simple.

It's disgusting and quite frankly I would never deal with them again, because they're willing to lie, cheat and steal from their customers.

There should be no place in anyone's world for that kind of self serving parasitic behaviour.

Where are you based?

I'm in the UK.

The real shitter is that they emailed me to confirm the payment has been recieved by them.Now they deny all knowledge.
 Now I'm just ignored.

[canerandagio]

https://i.imgur.com/ePRen2o.gif

https://d2g892zuoe3k49.cloudfront.net/510b1ebd98d45c946c0001ae/335707206_700.gif

[ionstorm]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

UPDATE:
Civil complaint filed and accepted in my home state in Pennsylvania, also the Pennsylvania Attorney General is investigating, I'd be interested in accepting any Affidavit's or if anyone would like to be a witness PM me.  Being a witness would be better since affidavit's may not be admissible because they could be classified as hearsay.  So if you live close, let me know.  Also any advice or support would be appreciated.  Any small win here is a good thing, if I can get a Judgement against them others may take it as an example for their own cases.

[Xian01]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

UPDATE:
Civil complaint filed and accepted in my home state in Pennsylvania, also the Pennsylvania Attorney General is investigating, I'd be interested in accepting any Affidavit's or if anyone would like to be a witness PM me.  Being a witness would be better since affidavit's may not be admissible because they could be classified as hearsay.  So if you live close, let me know.  Also any advice or support would be appreciated.  Any small win here is a good thing, if I can get a Judgement against them others may take it as an example for their own cases.

PM me if there is any way my experiences with Butterfly Labs can be of help to you. I can't make any promises due to my present schedule, but would be interested in testifying in court for you at my expense.

Let me know how things go, and what dates you are likely to be in court if you need another voice.

[ionstorm]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

UPDATE:
Civil complaint filed and accepted in my home state in Pennsylvania, also the Pennsylvania Attorney General is investigating, I'd be interested in accepting any Affidavit's or if anyone would like to be a witness PM me.  Being a witness would be better since affidavit's may not be admissible because they could be classified as hearsay.  So if you live close, let me know.  Also any advice or support would be appreciated.  Any small win here is a good thing, if I can get a Judgement against them others may take it as an example for their own cases.

PM me if there is any way my experiences with Butterfly Labs can be of help to you. I can't make any promises due to my present schedule, but would be interested in testifying in court for you at my expense.

Let me know how things go, and what dates you are likely to be in court if you need another voice.

Thanks, I WILL be taking any and all offers for witness testimony, I requested a refund and cancellation of my order that was denied, this violated my state laws as well as FTC guidelines, also researching on other laws they have broken.  PM me

[Tigggger]

Thanks, I WILL be taking any and all offers for witness testimony, I requested a refund and cancellation of my order that was denied, this violated my state laws as well as FTC guidelines, also researching on other laws they have broken.  PM me

I wouldn't waste too much time gathering evidence, BFL will just string it out until the last moment then settle, no way are they going to appear in court and set a precedent.

[ionstorm]

Thanks, I WILL be taking any and all offers for witness testimony, I requested a refund and cancellation of my order that was denied, this violated my state laws as well as FTC guidelines, also researching on other laws they have broken.  PM me

I wouldn't waste too much time gathering evidence, BFL will just string it out until the last moment then settle, no way are they going to appear in court and set a precedent.

Hey guys, Please check out this web form and if you have a few minutes, please fill it out with your experiences with Butterfly Labs Inc, it will be forwarded to the Pennsylvania Attorney General as well as admitted as evidence in my case: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZRH841TzAhv8Bu7pcEW8id3UMAsO5iDvxUgw0LqZA0k/viewform

I'll be providing updates as the case moves forward.
Thank you

[Bicknellski]

After 8 weeks of no response from BFL to Amex and my refusing shipments of 11 singles I am happy to say that the chargeback process is complete and I am finally rid of BFL after 8 long months. Good riddance!

That is excellent news.

[vulgartrendkill]

I have also finally got my refund of $500.

This was after 4 months of waiting. I know not a huge amount, but still.

[vayvanne]

My story yet paused on receiving miners at the end of November (after 7 months since my last order was made). One of 5 LSes was DOA, another one was not hashing at full speed. Sent emails to BFL, it is a week already without a reply.
AGO did not help to get refund as they took more than 2 months to reply and just forwarded to me again BFLs "all sales are final" term.
Judging on a screw dropped out from inside of one of miners I think the received miners will not last very long as poor quality.
Finally got banned yesterday on BFL forums without reason been explained I suppose by SLok.
So at the moment, no refund, obsolete, failure and broken devices, no support, that is the Butterfly Labs.

[BKM]

Here is a little cautionary tale about chargebacks and the lesson learned:

I ordered a total of 12 Single SC 60's in March of 2013.

Waited, waited.... watched and waited. Due to the opacity of the approach of reporting shipments by paid date, my general discontent and getting caught up in the charegback wave of August / September I actively pursued charging back my orders which were made via PayPal and funded by American Express. I think PayPal ran out of BFL holdback funds so that was a dead end and they suggested I try Amex one more time. I did and to my great surprise they accepted the dispute even though it had passed the 90 day cut off. I thought they were doing a great favour and that I would be sure to "win" because of all the issues...... What they failed to mention is that they had no recourse to the merchant after 90 days and that their role would only be that of an intermediary in the process of communicating with BFL. The disputed charges were accepted on September 25th.

BFL shipped my first order of one miner on October 11th. Ten more miners were shipped Fedex overnight 6 days later and the last one was shipped not long after. In consultation with Amex I refused the orders. In the end, all 12 miners were refused and returned to BFL. On December 6th it was finally confirmed that nothing was going to come of the charegeback (of course) and that I was fully and completed F'd. There were many situations where Amex could have cleared the air - at one point they even stated that the chargeback was awarded in my favour because the merchant (BFL) had not contacted them in the 8 weeks since the dispute was accepted. I was happy at that point that it was finally concluded. Three days later I learned in a follow up call that, no, the matter was not concluded at all.

In the end I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand trying to sort out what I owe them for additional shipping and just move on. Clearly this whole escapade has cost me dearly. The tale is not one that will apply anymore to most people as BFL long ago stopped accepting PayPal and credit cards etc. Nevertheless, I thought it might be good information to anyone else who is pending a decision from their credit card company regarding a chargeback. The 90 day cutoff is not some arbitrary limit - the company has no way to collect your money. Move on - take your gear and start mining. Tomorrow will be a better day.

In conclusion, I maintain that I made the best decision I could at the time with the information I had. If Amex had been more transparent in its process then the outcome would have been very different. Whatever the case I am making good with BFL and working to secure my miners as fast as I can. Thanks BFL_Emily for your support in this process......

No rear view mirrors in Bitcoin land..... petal to the metal. ┗(°0°)┛

[BuckNaked]

In the "it ain't over 'til it's over" category ...

Today (April 18, 2014) I got a call from the District Attorney's office where I filed the complaint.  The investigator commented that there had been numerous complaints and that he was contacting all the victims -- his wording, not mine.

In other "not so fresh" world news ...

The judge issued a default judgment in favor of the plaintiffs in at least one non-delivery case.  (A default judgment occurs when the accused does not bother to respond or show up in court.)  BFL now wants that default judgment overturned.  My opinion:  When they found out that the legal system does work, even if not quickly, arrogance became fear.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/01/15/leawood-bitcoin-company-faces-lawsuit.html

[Tsukene]

In the "it ain't over 'til it's over" category ...

Today (April 18, 2014) I got a call from the District Attorney's office where I filed the complaint.  The investigator commented that there had been numerous complaints and that he was contacting all the victims -- his wording, not mine.

In other "not so fresh" world news ...

The judge issued a default judgment in favor of the plaintiffs in at least one non-delivery case.  (A default judgment occurs when the accused does not bother to respond or show up in court.)  BFL now wants that default judgment overturned.  My opinion:  When they found out that the legal system does work, even if not quickly, arrogance became fear.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/01/15/leawood-bitcoin-company-faces-lawsuit.html

I wish you the best of luck. I hope everything works out for you in the end.

[StefanThePro]

I wanna comment his^ profile photo!

Good on Ya!

I hope everyone takes action cause these days, every dollar counts.

And this kind of bad publicity hurts everyone.
Forget what BFL thinks, BTC is what matters and having anything for the media to bite on is just self-destructive.

[Bicknellski]

In the "it ain't over 'til it's over" category ...

Today (April 18, 2014) I got a call from the District Attorney's office where I filed the complaint.  The investigator commented that there had been numerous complaints and that he was contacting all the victims -- his wording, not mine.

In other "not so fresh" world news ...

The judge issued a default judgment in favor of the plaintiffs in at least one non-delivery case.  (A default judgment occurs when the accused does not bother to respond or show up in court.)  BFL now wants that default judgment overturned.  My opinion:  When they found out that the legal system does work, even if not quickly, arrogance became fear.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/01/15/leawood-bitcoin-company-faces-lawsuit.html

2nd Lawsuit... more to come.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/04/08/bitcoin-mining-class-action-lawsuit-butterfly-labs.html

They're suing for violations of the Kansas Consumer Protection Act, unjust
enrichment, negligent misrepresentation and conversion.

The proposed class would include anyone who prepaid for equipment from BF Labs,
the petition said. It alleges that BF Labs collected more than $25 million in pre-orders,
but does not specify how many individuals that would encompass.


The 2 more Weeks Defence

In a response filed by the defense in that case, BF Labs denied all of the allegations,
blaming the delayed shipping on technical problems that held up manufacturing the
equipment on a commercial scale.

Pssst where are the Monarch's? Are they being delayed because of technical problems that are holding up manufacturing of the Monarch on a commercial scale? Where have we seen this before... oh right 1 year ago and a year before that on the FPGA's? Seems to be a pattern and where there is a pattern there will be evidence. Eventually someone is going to rollover and provide evidence to avoid jail. I am guessing Sonny rolls first and Josh eats the jail time see that is how Sonny escaped the worst of it last time if we all read this thread deep enough I doubt he wants to do another 14 months.

http://openruby.com/bitcoin/pages/6981272-ceo-of-butterfly-labs-is-a-felon-plead-guilty-to-mail-fraud

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.msg1206082#msg1206082

I'll submit my questions for the "town hall" now.

1. Is Sonny Vleisides the BFL employee who signs his emails "Sonny K?" Why the K? Is he intentionally trying to conceal his identity even more than just using V?

2. Did Sonny Vleisides found the company or is he merely an employee? The following quote makes it sounds like he is simply one minor employee:
Quote from: Inaba on September 19, 2012, 10:30:56
...we're a robust company with 22 employees.  One of them has a colorful background in offshore libertarianism.

3. To be clear, is that employee with the "colorful background" Sonny Vleisides? If so, I am not sure "offshore libertarianism" is a fitting euphemism for the crime for which he was convicted. The victim statements in the affidavit posted by blakdawg are incredibly depressing.

4. Of those 22 employees, are any of their names: James Ray Houston, Rex Rogers, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, PJ Swink, or Michael Swink?

"One of them has a colorful background in offshore libertarianism." - Josh

So defrauding people for millions is just a colorful background in offshore libertarianism? The realty is he is a convicted felony and Josh might want to sell him out now before it is too late.