HashFast Miner Protection Program Discussion

[jspielberg]

The Protection Program is buried in a couple of threads so I am bringing it out into the light for full discussion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2922794#msg2922794

. . .
That is the reason behind our Miner Protection Program, and the guarantee we provide is:

If any of our pre-purchase customers has not achieved payback on their investment in HashFast equipment within 90 days* of taking delivery from us, we will support them by providing them with up to 4X the Hashing capacity they originally purchased, free of charge.


The details:

We will give you double the extra capacity you would have needed to break even (up to a maximum of 4x your original purchase). The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis.

*Assuming you have been running your mining rig 24/7, ROI calculated from the daily difficulty level, block arrival rate, and hash rate of equipment delivered.

Eduardo deCastro
Founder and CEO, Hashfast

I would like to start the discussion on the details section.
First I would like to thank HF for offering this program as I don't think any of the other vendors have anything similar.  However, the details section is a bit brief, and it seems like they are providing raw chips.  This doesn't seem like much help.  At this point, asics are very custom development, and not plug and play.

How are you guys reading the "The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis"?  It kind of feels like raw chips to me.

An analogy:
I kind of see this as the similar to buying a Nuclear Power Station (bare with me).... which is admittedly a niche market (like bitcoin miners).  The vendor (GE?) says... if your power station doesn't provide the power you need, in 90 days we will give you enough Uranium to build 3 new power stations for free!  Which is a great deal, the Uranium is the most difficult component to acquire, but building a power station is not easy for most and there is limited capacity in the environment for qualified builders.

If the vendor had stated "We will upgrade your existing power station", or "We will provide additional power stations (if your current stations are at capacity) for a nominal fee", I think this would be a much more powerful statement, and more compelling as a customer.

Feel free to discuss... HashFast feel free to join in the discussion with any clarifications or misunderstandings.  
It is interesting and exciting how the mining vendor space is shaping.  Just like the difficulty curve  

[Bitcoinorama]

If they are not offering payment by credit card, sorry to tell you there is; no payment protection, whatever way it's worded.

Fact is they haven't gone to the lengths of being adjudicated by a third party issuing bank or payment processor and they haven't met the stringent requirements in which such a third party will offer consumer protection.

None.

Slick marketing, no substance;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.0

You need third party payment protection or you stand to be out of pocket should delays, or failure occur.

Any company can take your money, promise you the world and fold up shop providing authorities what ever limited proof is required that they tried their best and walk.

Fact.

[SirWizz]

I beg to differ, it is not exciting at all. It just means you need to spend even more money in order to recoup your losses . Not much different than when you are at the casino and down on your luck and you keep spending more hoping for that win/jackpot that will allow you to get your money back at least.

I think we all know how the story ends most of the time.

[jspielberg]

Off topic already!
That was fast.
We already have a discussion for that topic.

I think HF is for the crazies of us who are into the Bitcoin experiment and want to see it through with a whole Bitcoin based economy.  Avalon was for the same group of crazies and we are still in the process of getting burned.

As cat-bert would say "Building on that success!"
We are seeing some of the drawbacks to the "irreversible" nature of BTC.
Slow/nonexistent refunding from Avalon.
Slow/nonexistent deliveries from everyone.  
Incredibly short shelf life for any of the purchasable products.

I would say that if you are entering the BTC without any existing BTC and only have fiat, please use your head and use a credit card following Bitcoinarama's sound advice in his link.

For those of us with some existing BTC reserves who want push the BTC economy forward... at much personal financial risk... please continue with the OP topic discussion...
i.e. are the raw chips much of a protection when their are large unknowns with turning them into viable hashers?

Thanks

[erschiessen]

are the raw chips much of a protection when their are large unknowns with turning them into viable hashers?

No.

[Bitcoinorama]

No the above was very much in topic as this 'deal' is a means to sway your judgement without thinking clearly.

They offer No refund until January. None.

They have your funds, if they f**k up, they promise to return monies, but have no third party to guarantee it.

You are basically acting on their word they can deliver on time.

They have offered no compelling evidence to believe this, and there is nothing backing you up if they can't, or don't succeed.

There are several companies copying the KnC method of bringing a device to market straight from receipt of chips as a prototype.

None of these competing companies have met the strict requirements of a third party totally independent Issuing Bank and Payment processor.

None of these competing companies have the backing of Paypal, except Butterfly Labs, of which this is starting to become a very welcome avenue for disgruntled BFL customers.

None of these competing companies are assuming the risk involved with a credit card payment processor and promising the buyer protection from these independent third party bodies.

None of these competing companies are offering any real buyer protection (and BFL are trying their damnedest to change their terms and wriggle out of the responsibility).

[crumbs]

...
How are you guys reading the "The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis"?  It kind of feels like raw chips to me.
...

There are so many problems with this...
It's unreasonable to assume that your losses will not be compounded by the "free chip."
First, the time frame:  We're talking ~4 months past getting your original miner (90 days + shipping + assembly + shipping).
The cost/availability/readiness of support hardware may exceed the cost of comparable miners offered by the competition at that date. (boards, cases, cooling (make that water cooling, ~300W chip) etc.)
If you didn't make ROI in 3 month of what promises to be an *amazing* difficulty rise, it's unlikely that doubling your hashpower after the fact will significantly change the picture.

Of course, all of the above is predicated on HashFast being 100% true to their word.  Anything from production delays, failure to meet specs, financial snafus, or outright lies make all of this irrelevant.  Banking on promises of ASIC manufacturers is proving to be pretty foolish.

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

[Bitcoinorama]

Summary of consumer protection link, by a respected third party Bitcointalk forum member, Prof Mac;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.msg2925006#msg2925006

[Bitcoinorama]

No the above was very much in topic as this 'deal' is a means to sway your judgement without thinking clearly.

They offer No refund until January. None.

They have your funds, if they f**k up, they promise to return monies, but have no third party to guarantee it.

You are basically acting on their word they can deliver on time.

They have offered no compelling evidence to believe this, and there is nothing backing you up if they can't, or don't succeed.

There are several companies copying the KnC method of bringing a device to market straight from receipt of chips as a prototype.

None of these competing companies have met the strict requirements of a third party totally independent Issuing Bank and Payment processor.

None of these competing companies have the backing of Paypal, except Butterfly Labs, of which this is starting to become a very welcome avenue for disgruntled BFL customers.

None of these competing companies are assuming the risk involved with a credit card payment processor and promising the buyer protection from these independent third party bodies.

None of these competing companies are offering any real buyer protection (and BFL are trying their damnedest to change their terms and wriggle out of the responsibility).

I wouldn't ever use a credit card processor for bitcoin hardware. I've had legitimate (non-fraud customers), purchase something, or use a service, then charge back even after 90 days. For a machine that prints money the risk of people using a fraudulent credit card is even higher. For merchants, users not being able to claw back money is one of the pluses for bitcoin. If you're not sure if someone is legit or not, then don't buy.

Judging by the amount of scams, and reputedly safe bets such as BFL and Avalon and the enormous amount of funding raised through pre-orders that is very poor and inconsiderate advice. The name 'senseless' seems apt here. Both BFL and Bitsyncom/Avalon are sitting on tens of millions of dollars worth of pre-order funding, each!

Chargebacks, approx $35 amount to a minor percentage and a is a risk to the merchant that pales in comparioson to that of the vast sums asked from the consumer.

Credit card fraud is assumed by the payment processor, not the merchant.

[cypherdoc]

ok, i just got some more specifics from Simon.

they definitely plan to open source hardware specs near the time coincident with the shipment of units.  their idea is to encourage the manufacture of inexpensive clones into which their raw chips will be inserted. 

they also have an admittedly fuzzy plan to sell the inhouse chassis at a discounted cost precisely to enable this program to be successful altho ultimately they want to become a chip manufacturer. 

all from the horse's mouth.

i think jspielberg has this pegged right.  either you want to help push the BTC economy forward by buying with BTC or you can choose to stay within the fiat world if you want to maintain maximum protection.  Bitcoin, by it's nature, has been designed to be a "push" like payment system, not a "pull" like system in fiat.  yes, that ultimately means you have to trust the companies involved.  which means you have to do due diligence like go and visit these guys.  do some digging on their resumes.  analyze the ppl who have put their trust in them as proxies for your own trust level, etc, etc.

what gives me hope is that none of the major companies like BFL, Avalon, Asicminer have just taken money and run.  all have delivered product with highly varying degrees of promptness.  clearly which has affected returns.  but none have been an outright scam by my definition.  i truly don't think HF will be either.  it's just a matter of if you think they can deliver on time. 

the two big safety valves you have imo are the full refund date and now the MPP.  of course, if they do a BK you'll probably never see these guarantees materialize.  but as i pointed out, they do have several funding options prior to that scenario.

[rammy2k2]

sorry, i dont do pre-orders no more 

[Vagnavs]

The Protection Program is buried in a couple of threads so I am bringing it out into the light for full discussion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2922794#msg2922794

. . .
That is the reason behind our Miner Protection Program, and the guarantee we provide is:

If any of our pre-purchase customers has not achieved payback on their investment in HashFast equipment within 90 days* of taking delivery from us, we will support them by providing them with up to 4X the Hashing capacity they originally purchased, free of charge.


The details:

We will give you double the extra capacity you would have needed to break even (up to a maximum of 4x your original purchase). The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis.

*Assuming you have been running your mining rig 24/7, ROI calculated from the daily difficulty level, block arrival rate, and hash rate of equipment delivered.

Eduardo deCastro
Founder and CEO, Hashfast

I would like to start the discussion on the details section.
First I would like to thank HF for offering this program as I don't think any of the other vendors have anything similar.  However, the details section is a bit brief, and it seems like they are providing raw chips.  This doesn't seem like much help.  At this point, asics are very custom development, and not plug and play.

How are you guys reading the "The extra capacity will be chips only, to be used with a HashFast or third party chassis"?  It kind of feels like raw chips to me.

An analogy:
I kind of see this as the similar to buying a Nuclear Power Station (bare with me).... which is admittedly a niche market (like bitcoin miners).  The vendor (GE?) says... if your power station doesn't provide the power you need, in 90 days we will give you enough Uranium to build 3 new power stations for free!  Which is a great deal, the Uranium is the most difficult component to acquire, but building a power station is not easy for most and there is limited capacity in the environment for qualified builders.

If the vendor had stated "We will upgrade your existing power station", or "We will provide additional power stations (if your current stations are at capacity) for a nominal fee", I think this would be a much more powerful statement, and more compelling as a customer.

Feel free to discuss... HashFast feel free to join in the discussion with any clarifications or misunderstandings.  
It is interesting and exciting how the mining vendor space is shaping.  Just like the difficulty curve  

it seems you're on the payroll as well..

[Bitcoinorama]

No the above was very much in topic as this 'deal' is a means to sway your judgement without thinking clearly.

They offer No refund until January. None.

They have your funds, if they f**k up, they promise to return monies, but have no third party to guarantee it.

You are basically acting on their word they can deliver on time.

They have offered no compelling evidence to believe this, and there is nothing backing you up if they can't, or don't succeed.

There are several companies copying the KnC method of bringing a device to market straight from receipt of chips as a prototype.

None of these competing companies have met the strict requirements of a third party totally independent Issuing Bank and Payment processor.

None of these competing companies have the backing of Paypal, except Butterfly Labs, of which this is starting to become a very welcome avenue for disgruntled BFL customers.

None of these competing companies are assuming the risk involved with a credit card payment processor and promising the buyer protection from these independent third party bodies.

None of these competing companies are offering any real buyer protection (and BFL are trying their damnedest to change their terms and wriggle out of the responsibility).

I wouldn't ever use a credit card processor for bitcoin hardware. I've had legitimate (non-fraud customers), purchase something, or use a service, then charge back even after 90 days. For a machine that prints money the risk of people using a fraudulent credit card is even higher. For merchants, users not being able to claw back money is one of the pluses for bitcoin. If you're not sure if someone is legit or not, then don't buy.

Judging by the amount of scams, and reputedly safe bets such as BFL and Avalon and the enormous amount of funding raised through pre-orders that is very poor and inconsiderate advice. The name 'senseless' seems apt here. Both BFL and Bitsyncom/Avalon are sitting on tens of millions of dollars worth of pre-order funding, each!

Chargebacks, approx $35 amount to a minor percentage and a is a risk to the merchant that pales in comparioson to that of the vast sums asked from the consumer.

Credit card fraud is assumed by the payment processor, not the merchant.

So don't buy into unknown companies. Do your due diligence on the team and the people involved. What is more alarming is that people continue to buy into some companies who have questionable pasts with regards to felony convictions. What sounds more senseless, saying that people should do due diligence, or people who continue to buy after said due diligence is done?

Further, credit card fraud is not assumed by the payment processor. Each instance of a charge back yield a 25-50$ fee to the merchant plus the monies that were clawed back. If you receive enough charge backs or fraudulent orders the payment processor will just turn off your account. It sounds like you're not really aware of how those things work. The only ones who don't add an additional fee are third party services which include fraud verification such as paypal. But that doesn't stop someone from running away with the money and the product you shipped.

I do know how these things work, it depends on the agreement you negotiate with the intermediaries. Chargebacks are minimal in the scheme of things. We are talking about taking individual payments worth thousands of dollars that total the millions. A few $35 chargebacks here and there are negligible.

In any case this 'buyer protection' outlined here, very much the same as X-crowds 'escrow' is to secure and lock in funds. There's no protection anything will arrive on time, or be delivered. None.

They just want to prevent you from making informed choices once competitors bring products to market. There is absolutely no reason not to give you the option of a no quibble refund at anytime, as opposed to January by the earliest *if* they are confident they can deliver. Fact.

They are evidently not confident they can deliver on time, or they would offer no-quibble refunds and credit card payment through a known payment processor, like their 'official sponsor' stated he had illegally engaged and taken advantage of with KnC when he decided to make fraudulent card purchases, and earning them an unnecessary chargeback;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2895937#msg2895937

yes, then don't order.

in fact, you can blame me for advising them not to take cc's.  like i said in my thread, i had orders of 3 Jupiter's in at KNC, and 8 H boards with BitFury.  i never intended to order that many as a whole simply b/c i was playing the Ms. Fickle game of hedging my bets across multiple companies fully intending to cancel all but one order with whom i deemed the winner in my orderbook in the end.  so i artificially inflated the internal expectations at both these companies about what the demand was going to be going forward.

[qnosh]

good news .mark!

[rammy2k2]

sorry, i dont do pre-orders no more 

[klee]

So Bitcoinorama it seems you don't mind using fiat inrastructures to buy a machine that actually prints a grey area asset...Good luck if something goes wrong with your banks freezing KnC accounts. This from a btc24 with fiat frozen in a damn third world country.

People should be aware at this point that you are a politicaly correct statist...I bet you won't be around if we ever hit single digits!

EDIT: You do realize that your advice can mean no ROI or even losses if the IRS taxes the coins mined. As if it was not difficult already...

[Bitcoinorama]

So Bitcoinorama it seems you don't mind using fiat inrastructures to buy a machine that actually prints a grey area asset...Good luck if something goes wrong with your banks freezing KnC accounts. This from a btc24 with fiat frozen in a damn third world country.

People should be aware at this point that you are a politicaly correct statist...I bet you won't be around if we ever hit single digits!

Eh? Why would my card issuing bank freeze my account for anything KnC does?! My card issuing bank me covers me, not KnC's acquiring bank.

Dude I believe in cryptocurrencies and offering payment methods free from mass intermediary fees and government oversight.

However financial institutions and credit cards have their place when pre-payment is requested due to the considerable consumer protection they offer as a secure payment means.

Bitcoin cannot compete on that level yet, and scammy companies, as well as companies that mean well but like to bet big with their customers money take advantage of this.

Betting big with customers money is one thing, it's an entirely different thing if the option of protecting your customers funds exists, but you willingly choose to avoid the responsibility associated with the claims you as a company are making.

There is absolutely no reason for a US company in this day and age not to be vetted by a known and respected Issuing Bank and Payment Processor and offer such protection, when it is available to them, unless they know full well they are likely to be unable to fulfil on their promises.

I want to see genuine companies offer the consumer protection that is available to them and make this pre-order mess fair for us buyers. Hashfast are choosing not to. It's totally their choice, and they know it.

Cointerra, and x-crowd also have to be this benchmark that's been set by KnC.

[klee]

Man I understand what you say, point is I want PayPal, Banks et al dead! I use coins...

[Bitcoinorama]

Man I understand what you say, point is I want PayPal, Banks et al dead! I use coins...

Right and the coin purchasers of BFL, Avalon, bASIC, Cedartec, etc. are having a great time right now, aren't they?

[klee]

Oh, and I have been scammed and lost serious amounts of coins here since my first days in this. Never whined and gone back in tears to my ex PIMPs calling for protection. Cryptos always paid me bigger profits than losses, as far as a pimp does not steal me. That's how it is played here and always will, sorry...Only A-males can survive this - let's find out who is and who is not!