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Author Topic: Walter Block  (Read 4606 times)
kiba
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January 14, 2011, 03:57:30 PM
 #21

There will be a smartphone zerg rush. Once that happens, bank notes are unnecessary, only useful in a previous technological era.

Some people in Africa are already using phones as a way to pay workers, pay for stuff, etc. It already happened.

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gene
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January 14, 2011, 07:05:23 PM
 #22

Try explaining this distinction to a local merchant.
Easy.  It will be written on it.  A bank note usually clearly states what it is.

I have a $10 bill in front of me. It says:

You challenged me to explain to a local marchant what a bitcoin bank note would be.  I answered you.  The fact that dollars are defined differently is an other matter.  On a bitcoin bank note we would write :  "This note can be redeemed against [XX] bitcoins in [some place]".


Your answer completely misses the point. You also neglected to address my assertion that any physical manifestation of BTC would just bring back problems that we currently deal with: central authority and forgery.

Perhaps there is a language barrier, but my point is that the merchant would likely not care to hear your argument. He or she wants to be paid in an accepted currency. One which doesn't require a computer with a network connection and all the associated nerdery for a simple cash transaction (I'm a nerd, so don't take offense). To him or her, your distinction about currencies or methods of payment or whatever else is less than meaningless. You must understand my point.

So let's get real about what money is to most people. Does bitcoin qualify yet? Not even close. At least not by the criteria you posted.

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davout
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January 14, 2011, 07:12:30 PM
 #23

Your answer completely misses the point. You also neglected to address my assertion that any physical manifestation of BTC would just bring back problems that we currently deal with: central authority and forgery.
This has been discussed in depth in many threads. Go read, lurk a bit, educate yourself before expecting people to "address your assertions".
Not gonna lose any more time with you kthxbye

gene
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January 14, 2011, 07:18:23 PM
 #24

Your answer completely misses the point. You also neglected to address my assertion that any physical manifestation of BTC would just bring back problems that we currently deal with: central authority and forgery.
This has been discussed in depth in many threads. Go read, lurk a bit, educate yourself before expecting people to "address your assertions".
Not gonna lose any more time with you kthxbye

You presume far too much, sir. Unfortunately, your posts in this thread have been absolutely free of content. I know this is out of character for you, so please accept my criticism in the best possible way.

The proposed solutions have failed to offer the flexibility of hard currency (durability, recognition and portability, in the OP's parlance). Unfortunately, this is what most people require of "money" and the inability of bitcoin to match this standard remains a serious problem.

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kiba
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January 14, 2011, 07:29:46 PM
 #25


The proposed solutions have failed to offer the flexibility of hard currency (durability, recognition and portability, in the OP's parlance). Unfortunately, this is what most people require of "money" and the inability of bitcoin to match this standard remains a serious problem.

All of which are not insurmountable problem in today's economy.

Banknotes are already not making sense in the age of truly ubiquitous computing, when everybody have a smartphone. In Japan, this future is already achieved as it is already possible to purchase drinks from vending machine using a smartphone. This will become more common place in the long run.

Bitcoin is already infinitely more more portable than cash in international trade since the bitcoin economy is already an international economy. The durability of bitcoin is based on backup. This can be easily achieved by merely uploading your wallet.dat to various online services. Recognition is based on adoption rate. which depend on us growing.

All in all, paper currency will disappear based on technological evolution and more resources spent on making bitcoin easy to use.

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January 14, 2011, 09:51:10 PM
 #26

Your answer completely misses the point. You also neglected to address my assertion that any physical manifestation of BTC would just bring back problems that we currently deal with: central authority and forgery.
This has been discussed in depth in many threads. Go read, lurk a bit, educate yourself before expecting people to "address your assertions".
Not gonna lose any more time with you kthxbye

You presume far too much, sir. Unfortunately, your posts in this thread have been absolutely free of content. I know this is out of character for you, so please accept my criticism in the best possible way.


You know not whom you are offending.  You are very nearly the first forum member to enter into my killfile.

Quote

The proposed solutions have failed to offer the flexibility of hard currency (durability, recognition and portability, in the OP's parlance). Unfortunately, this is what most people require of "money" and the inability of bitcoin to match this standard remains a serious problem.

I reccommed that you either hush up and wait in the background until you feel more comfortable with the system, and more civil, or GTFO

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Sultan
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January 14, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
 #27

For me the underlying problem with BitCoin is that i can't go to my local store and buy food with it (yet).

When or if the day comes when I can, then I will start asking for my salary to be paid in BitCoins too.

An interesting point is that it has already become an international currency, which is true, as it is true for eGold. Then eGold got shut down. However BitCoin will not suffer the same problem as eGold as there is no central point of failure. The only way to stop BitCoin from ever being used is to attack the entire system within a short space of time, namely before anybody knows what is going on.

As for the definitions of money, according to the YouTube video I believe BitCoin does fulfil all those components of money apart from it having a commodity value. We'll just have to wait and see who History decides to side with!

http://images.onbux.com/banner.gif
I then use the money to buy BitCoins. You can too!
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January 15, 2011, 03:42:31 AM
 #28

You can buiy Amazon gift cards with bitcoins. You can buy almost everything there probably cheaper than your local general store.

You can also fill debit cards or buy prepaid visa cards.

Maybe you need to investigate further.

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January 15, 2011, 07:01:04 AM
 #29

You can buiy Amazon gift cards with bitcoins. You can buy almost everything there probably cheaper than your local general store.

You can also fill debit cards or buy prepaid visa cards.

Maybe you need to investigate further.



True I can buy many things from Amazon, but ultimately, they are in my country's currency. And the BitCoins that are given rebated are based on the exchange rate in dollars.

As for prepaid visa cards with dollars on them, I use Pound Sterling, so not only do I have to exchange BitCoins for dollars, I need to exchange the dollars for sterling, which loses the value in the first place.

I agree, the Amazon thing will be cheaper due to the rebate, which makes most of the items cheaper in the long-run, which does, indeed, make things cheaper for me than my general store. However most of the goods I'm really interested in (like food) is not sold in my local grocery store or supermarket for BitCoin (yet).

http://images.onbux.com/banner.gif
I then use the money to buy BitCoins. You can too!
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January 15, 2011, 07:17:32 AM
 #30

I agree, the Amazon thing will be cheaper due to the rebate, which makes most of the items cheaper in the long-run, which does, indeed, make things cheaper for me than my general store. However most of the goods I'm really interested in (like food) is not sold in my local grocery store or supermarket for BitCoin (yet).

Please, keep in mind that bitcoin is less than two years old.  And though it has reached quite a success despite the fact that it is not supported by any government.  No wonder it is not accepted in local stores yet.

Give it time.
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January 15, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
 #31

You can buiy Amazon gift cards with bitcoins. You can buy almost everything there probably cheaper than your local general store.

You can also fill debit cards or buy prepaid visa cards.

Maybe you need to investigate further.



True I can buy many things from Amazon, but ultimately, they are in my country's currency. And the BitCoins that are given rebated are based on the exchange rate in dollars.

As for prepaid visa cards with dollars on them, I use Pound Sterling, so not only do I have to exchange BitCoins for dollars, I need to exchange the dollars for sterling, which loses the value in the first place.

I agree, the Amazon thing will be cheaper due to the rebate, which makes most of the items cheaper in the long-run, which does, indeed, make things cheaper for me than my general store. However most of the goods I'm really interested in (like food) is not sold in my local grocery store or supermarket for BitCoin (yet).


You can buy food at amazon lol.
ribuck
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January 15, 2011, 12:42:09 PM
 #32

... it has reached quite a success because of the fact that it is not supported by any government

Fixed that for you!
Sultan
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January 15, 2011, 01:07:09 PM
 #33

You can buiy Amazon gift cards with bitcoins. You can buy almost everything there probably cheaper than your local general store.

You can also fill debit cards or buy prepaid visa cards.

Maybe you need to investigate further.



True I can buy many things from Amazon, but ultimately, they are in my country's currency. And the BitCoins that are given rebated are based on the exchange rate in dollars.

As for prepaid visa cards with dollars on them, I use Pound Sterling, so not only do I have to exchange BitCoins for dollars, I need to exchange the dollars for sterling, which loses the value in the first place.

I agree, the Amazon thing will be cheaper due to the rebate, which makes most of the items cheaper in the long-run, which does, indeed, make things cheaper for me than my general store. However most of the goods I'm really interested in (like food) is not sold in my local grocery store or supermarket for BitCoin (yet).


You can buy food at amazon lol.

I stand corrected! You can buy all sorts from Amazon! Wow! Unfortunately the prices seem a little too high than what I would pay in supermarkets at the moment, but I wasn't aware of this, thank you, noagenda. And considering the delay in getting the items, this is why I don't buy groceries online. However its a good start!

One thing that is impractical for them to sell is meat, for obvious reasons.

I appreciate that BitCoin is a very young currency, hence my operative word of "yet" in every single statement I make. I will give it time, indeed, but at this moment in time, to me, the BitCoin has little value to me. When BitCoin becomes much more widespread, then maybe I will hop in. In the meantime, the only thing I can practically do is hoard as many BitCoins as possible until the day when my local halal meat shop will accept BitCoins for a chicken!

http://images.onbux.com/banner.gif
I then use the money to buy BitCoins. You can too!
gene
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January 15, 2011, 03:42:53 PM
 #34

Those of you talking about buying gift/visa cards are describing bitcoin's use as a scrip, similar to casino chips. I need to exchange the chips (bitcoins) for something that is universally recognized. Currently, we only have a very limited number of places where this exchange can happen (like the cashier's window at a casino).

Your examples essentially make my point that bitcoin currently fails to satisfy the requirements for money, as enumerated by the OP.

As for buying things on Amazon (after exchanging my bitcoins for a form of payment actually recognized by Amazon), I now need an account with Amazon (likely along with a verified credit card), in addition to a computer with internet access. Not only that, I must also wait for delivery. How exactly is this superior to just using real money?

I've saved the best for last:
Quote
You know not whom you are offending.  You are very nearly the first forum member to enter into my killfile.

[...]

I reccommed that you either hush up and wait in the background until you feel more comfortable with the system, and more civil, or GTFO

This post really helped me shake my hangover this morning. Nothing quite like a good laugh to get the blood flowing. As for the "GTFO" attitude, that is an excellent way to build an echo chamber.

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kiba
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January 15, 2011, 04:02:13 PM
 #35

This post really helped me shake my hangover this morning. Nothing quite like a good laugh to get the blood flowing. As for the "GTFO" attitude, that is an excellent way to build an echo chamber.

All socialists that I have seen on this forum are driven out by almost relentless argumentation, alone. They left on their own.

But you, on the other hand, seem to piss off people more readily than any socialist crank that come here. I don't know what you did, actually. So, I hold no personal grudges against you.

gene
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January 15, 2011, 04:09:39 PM
 #36

Quote
All socialists that I have seen on this forum are driven out by almost relentless argumentation, alone. They left on their own.

But you, on the other hand, seem to piss off people more readily than any socialist crank that come here. I don't know what you did, actually. So, I hold no personal grudges against you.

Thank you... I think. I suppose I just want to see bitcoin succeed. That is never going to happen with a forum full of people that think that bitcoin is able to do things that it is demonstrably incapable of doing. I can understand that people don't like being told that they are being unrealistic, but scrutiny is the price of improvement.

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kiba
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January 15, 2011, 04:28:18 PM
 #37

That is never going to happen with a forum full of people that think that bitcoin is able to do things that it is demonstrably incapable of doing. I can understand that people don't like being told that they are being unrealistic, but scrutiny is the price of improvement.

The community here are very interested in making sure bitcoin succeed. There's had been historically genuine disagreement in the past, such as the wikileak debate, which was pretty heated. So this isn't an echo chamber, at least, not always.

However, don't think that people will necessary agree with your arguments just because they're open to criticism and suggestion on how to strengthen bitcoin.

gene
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January 15, 2011, 04:39:29 PM
 #38

Quote
The community here are very interested in making sure bitcoin succeed. There's had been historically genuine disagreement in the past, such as the wikileak debate, which was pretty heated. So this isn't an echo chamber, at least, not always.

However, don't think that people will necessary agree with your arguments just because they're open to criticism and suggestion on how to strengthen bitcoin.

Please don't get me wrong. I work in an environment of constant argument and disagreement. I rather enjoy it, actually. What I mind are facile responses and lack of openness.

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January 15, 2011, 07:08:45 PM
 #39


Hey, I want to reply to the OP and skirt this confrontation between Hero Members and Junior Gene.  Walter Block is indeed a bad-ass.  I have been a student of Austrian economics for a while now and really appreciate their logical consistency.  If you haven't been there I definitely recommend going to Mises.org and exploring.  You can sign up for their daily article, or just browse the website for articles and podcasts.  They have a LOT of free literature there.  It's fantastic.    Smiley

Also, in response to the "what is money" posts, I recommend reading Murray Rothbard's book "The Case Against the Fed".  You can find it free in PDF form ( http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf ) or order it from the Mises site  ($7) .  It's a rather short book so not too time consuming.  What's really interesting is that the first part of the book he covers the history of money and explains what money is and how it works.

Anyway, I'm new to BitCoins and would really like to see them succeed as they provide a path around State controlled currencies.

I downloaded the BitCoin program yesterday evening and have been trying to generate coins all night and still have not received any.  Is this normal for this stage in the BitCoin controlled inflation program?  From reading about BitCoin I was under the impression that a user like me would be able to generate some BitCoins by running my laptop for several hours.
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January 15, 2011, 07:14:53 PM
 #40

I downloaded the BitCoin program yesterday evening and have been trying to generate coins all night and still have not received any.  Is this normal for this stage in the BitCoin controlled inflation program?  From reading about BitCoin I was under the impression that a user like me would be able to generate some BitCoins by running my laptop for several hours.
Well, that information is kind of outdated, since it was written it became much harder to generate coins.
If you're really serious about mining come hang out on #bitcoin-dev for help Smiley

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