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FreeMoney
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January 15, 2011, 07:59:20 AM
 #1

This is a complaint I hear pretty often:

Quote from: Sepp Hasslburger
Unfortunately the developer of bitcoin has set a maximum of bitcoins to ever be created, which will make this currency highly deflationary. The more users that will want to use bitcoin, the more they will have to compete for the use of a limited amount of coins. Coins will become worth more and more, meaning less bitcoins will buy more product. Those who will profit from this deflation are going to be the “first come” users, those who created bitcoins when it was still relatively easy.

I believe bitcoin is an interesting proof-of-principle for a user-generated currency, yet it is not a currency that can guarantee price stability. Because of the fixed total amount of coins to be created, the currency cannot be adapted to a growing market.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of why the bitcoin generation scheme is better, but I'm not going to discuss that now, my theories haven't convinced anyone as far as I know.

I propose we try it out. Modify the Bitcoin code to simply continue generating the same number of coins/time forever. You could even call it a time limited currency. At any given time there will be a limit on how many coins exist, maybe this will be god enough to lure some people who are on the limited/unlimited fence. It is still surely better than a centrally issued currency where we can't tell at what rate money will be printed or what the distribution rule will be.

The infrastructure that exists already for Bitcoin can mostly be converted in minutes and this applies to all infrastructure that will be created in the future. A BTC/TC exchange site would be trival to set up and be virtually riskless legally. This would let Timecoin piggyback on all the existing and future BTC to state currency exchange sites. Just go to a BTC/TC exchange then take your BTC to MtGox or wherever. If it catches on there will be direct exchanges I'm sure.

My point is that people don't have to be really really devoted to this idea to make it happen like the developers of bitcoin are. They only have to think that this one difference is even a slight improvement, everything else is already available, practically free. There are even a bunch of miners already set up that could switch on a dime.

If Timecoin allows for a growing market and Bitcoin does not we'll know for sure and don't need to worry about theory.

Empiricism!

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January 15, 2011, 09:13:52 AM
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Why would people convert from hard bitcoins into an always inflating currency?  (of course, I won't stop them from doing so...they can feel free...but I doubt in the long run that people will be storing their money in it.)  Fundamentally, as long as the two currencies are freely exchangeable, and there is no state forcing everyone into one currency instead of the other, then the two currencies could be freely traded with eachother.  But since timecoin looses value over time, I would think that since there is a fixed number of bitcoins, the number of timecoins needed to purchase a bitcoin (after bitcoin is close to its 21mill limit) would gradually incase according to its rate of inflation (other things being equal).

Of course, people should feel free to mod the bitcoin client into a timecoin client, and maybe the will be proven right if people for some reason prefer to trade in inflating currency, but I doubt the market would choose that.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

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January 15, 2011, 09:29:25 AM
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I think of shares on the stock market. A given company may never sell more shares than a set amount, and their shares may become worth a lot more, but they can simply split the shares, meaning that people can buy fractions of shares, which are now of the same value as what the shares were worth before.

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January 15, 2011, 09:44:07 AM
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Why would people convert from hard bitcoins into an always inflating currency?  (of course, I won't stop them from doing so...they can feel free...but I doubt in the long run that people will be storing their money in it.)  Fundamentally, as long as the two currencies are freely exchangeable, and there is no state forcing everyone into one currency instead of the other, then the two currencies could be freely traded with eachother.  But since timecoin looses value over time, I would think that since there is a fixed number of bitcoins, the number of timecoins needed to purchase a bitcoin (after bitcoin is close to its 21mill limit) would gradually in case according to its rate of inflation (other things being equal).

Of course, people should feel free to mod the bitcoin client into a timecoin client, and maybe the will be proven right if people for some reason prefer to trade in inflating currency, but I doubt the market would choose that.

Because a currency that inflates allows a growing (inflating) economy. It's pretty simple.

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January 15, 2011, 09:48:49 AM
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Because a currency that inflates allows a growing (inflating) economy. It's pretty simple.

Same with a currency that's infinitely divisible, no?

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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January 15, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
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I think of shares on the stock market. A given company may never sell more shares than a set amount, and their shares may become worth a lot more, but they can simply split the shares, meaning that people can buy fractions of shares, which are now of the same value as what the shares were worth before.

Not true, afaik.

Companies issue new stock. The reason it doesn't devalue previous shareholders is that those shareholders now own a smaller part of a company that has more cash, in exact proportion to the dilution.

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January 15, 2011, 10:07:05 AM
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Because a currency that inflates allows a growing (inflating) economy. It's pretty simple.

Same with a currency that's infinitely divisible, no?

Are you suggesting that things will get cheaper? Why would people produce if they were getting paid less and less. Plus they could use Timecoin instead and get paid more and more.

This is far too inviting an idea to pass up, Timecoin needs to be implemented asap.


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January 15, 2011, 11:15:19 AM
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Because a currency that inflates allows a growing (inflating) economy. It's pretty simple.

Same with a currency that's infinitely divisible, no?

Are you suggesting that things will get cheaper? Why would people produce if they were getting paid less and less. Plus they could use Timecoin instead and get paid more and more.

This is far too inviting an idea to pass up, Timecoin needs to be implemented asap.



Why would anyone want timecoin when there are dollars euros pounds yuans and rubles? Why would anyone want to get robbed continuosly. Inflation is simply another hidden tax.

Well... some sheeps love to have haircuts every once in a while I suppose.


Maybe getting higher and higher wages is worth being stolen from. And if you are going to be stolen from why not have it be by the people who are enforcing the rules of the network instead of the guys who are throwing you in jail for smoking pot?

Weak objections in this thread. Someone make this happen, people obviously want it.

Timecoin.org is available. Satashi who? I want to hear about the guy who invented Timecoin: The Currency of our Time.

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January 15, 2011, 11:31:29 AM
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And if you are going to be stolen from why not have it be by the people who are enforcing the rules of the network

All the people here who object to taxes do in fact object "being stolen" by those who enforce the rules of society. You're not going to convince them with that argument.

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January 15, 2011, 11:37:12 AM
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And if you are going to be stolen from why not have it be by the people who are enforcing the rules of the network

All the people here who object to taxes do in fact object "being stolen" by those who enforce the rules of society. You're not going to convince them with that argument.

I am not suggesting that people here switch to Timecoin at all. I don't want to convince anyone, I've only been explaining why there are people who want the features provided by Timecoin. I used to spend time convincing those people that Bitcoin was better. I realize now that I was foolish, let there be both and we will see what people want.

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January 15, 2011, 11:46:18 AM
 #11

Are you suggesting that things will get cheaper?

No one can predict what prices will be.  That is all a function of supply and demand.  Some things get easier to produce with increased technologies and efficiencies in the economy, so their supply curve will drop, leading to decreased price (other things being equal).  Some things, such as non-renewable resources, will have their supply curve increase due to lower availability, so prices will increase (other things being equal).  But assuming a fixed amount of bitcoin currency at 21million, and assuming that there is technological improvements and growth in the number of goods in the economy, then the price of goods in bitcoin will drop.

Why would people produce if they were getting paid less and less?  Plus they could use Timecoin instead and get paid more and more.


They might get paid a higher numerical amount for their salary if paid in inflatable timecoin, but the purchasing power of their timecoin salary will not necessarily be greater than had they been paid in bitcoins.

This is far too inviting an idea to pass up, Timecoin needs to be implemented asap.

Dude, you can do whatever you want.  It seems to me that implementing timecoin would just require modifying a few lines of the bitcoin code.  Go ahead, do it.  It will divide the network.  People will put their money in what they think is a better store of value and medium of exchange.  In the end, I just see there being some steady exchange rate for price of bitcoin in terms of timecoin, which will gradually increases as timecoin inflates but bitcoin doesn't.

Fundamentally it doesn't matter either way.  The (profit) incentive for people to mine bitcoin or timecoin equals the revenue generated from the current market exchange rate value of the coin produced minus the costs to generate the hashes for the block (which includes energy, mining computer equipment, opportunity cost, etc.).  Note that the bitcoin network continues to produce blocks and coin even when there are 20,999,999 bitcoins in existance.  Due to economics (i.e. incentives and assuming rational, self-interested bitcoin miners), the profit margin for block production in perfect competition at equilibrium approaches 0, so the market value of coins produced will be roughly equal to the mining costs.  Therefore, at equilibrium, the value of the bitcoins produced in the last marginal bitcoin block will be roughly equal to the amount of energy (and computer equipment, opportunity cost, etc.) spent in that 10-minute time period (on average) to solve the block.  Likewise for timecoin, at equilibrium, the value of the coins produced in the last marginal timecoin block will be roughly equal to the amount of energy (and computer equipment, opportunity cost, etc.) spent in that 10-minute time period (on average) to solve the block.  Assuming that there are negligible transaction costs for trading between bitcoin and timecoin and assuming that miners could freely choose to mine for bitcoin or mine for timecoin (and will chose which one to mine for based on expected profit), the phenomenon you will see occur is that the market value of the last bitcoin block produced in that 10-minute time period will roughly equal the market value of the last timecoin block produced in that 10-minute time period.  And even though the nominal coin inflation rates may be different, the nominal rate of block production will be the same for both bitcoin and timecoin.  Therefore, regardless of different nominal rates of coin inflation, the market value of added bitcoins in each 10-minute period will equal the market value of added timecoins in each 10-minute period.  Q.E.D.  (Please point our possible errors, aside from grammatical and language, in my proof.  I could have more easily communicated this using calculus with mathematical equations, but that's a quick verbal draft of the proof.)

Dude, money is just the medium.

Anyway, despite this proof, I'm sure your average layman will not care or be able to understand market equilibrium.  And they are likely to be many people who are believe in the false promise of "price stability" by timecoin and who desire a (nominally) inflationary currency.  Therefore, I encourage them to jump on and build a timecoin network that will exist besides the bitcoin network.  (And hey, redundancy is a good thing).  The more people using distributed peer-to-peer cryptographic timestamp networks, the better...

I should emphasize that the government currently uses violence to force us to use an inflationary currency.  Without force, you will have competition between currencies.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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January 15, 2011, 12:05:26 PM
 #12

Who gets to decide the rate at which the coins get produced?

The trouble with going down that road is that suddenly you get timecoin 2 and timecoin 3 each with different amounts of coins produced per hour and different inflation.

Who sets the rules and who can change it?

Thats the bad side of it now for a suggestion....

I say kill two birds with one stone and use timecoins as the basis for a domainchain  and bitdns.


The extra inflation would compensate for the extra overhead of included data and domains give it value from the start.


People would spend timecoins but save in bitcoins.
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January 15, 2011, 12:10:31 PM
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Because a currency that inflates allows a growing (inflating) economy. It's pretty simple.

Same with a currency that's infinitely divisible, no?

Are you suggesting that things will get cheaper? Why would people produce if they were getting paid less and less. Plus they could use Timecoin instead and get paid more and more.

This is far too inviting an idea to pass up, Timecoin needs to be implemented asap.



Why would anyone want timecoin when there are dollars euros pounds yuans and rubles? Why would anyone want to get robbed continuosly. Inflation is simply another hidden tax.

Well... some sheeps love to have haircuts every once in a while I suppose.




except that in timecoin the tax is being paid to everyone, randomly.

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January 15, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
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... let there be both and we will see what people want ...
It would be fantastic to have both and see what people want. I know which I want though.

Until someone implements timecoin, this issue will never go away. There will be a constant stream of people demanding more inflation. I say let those people have all the inflation they want, in some other currency than bitcoin.
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January 15, 2011, 12:31:20 PM
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Okay, I'm sorry I went on for so long.

Of course I know that a limited currency is better. My point is just like you said though, the layman doesn't get it right now. He hears about Bitcoin and says "Won't work, it's limited money". Now you have choices, I've been going "blah blah blah limited is better because blah" and I get tuned out or dismissed with the crap I've been spouting in this thread. Another option would be "Oh, you might like Timecoin then". Now maybe they load it, generate a few, go to TimecoinExchange.com or Timecoin2Bitcoin.com and then they know which can store value. But instead of wasting time arguing theory they got some experience and worked with a system that works just like Bitcoin, they copied an address, they learned to be careful, they get how an online wallet works, etc. It's silly for people to keep using gov money because they lack some knowledge and want to argue.

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January 15, 2011, 12:44:32 PM
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You'll have deflation even with constant generation. The growing economy will outstrip Timecoin's inflation. This is happening to Bitcoin right now, as the value of each bitcoin continues to grow even though 7200 BTC is created every day.

If detractors believe that price stability is the most important factor, then they will require some method of adjusting the rate of inflation to counter change in value.

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January 15, 2011, 12:57:42 PM
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You'll have deflation even with constant generation. The growing economy will outstrip Timecoin's inflation. This is happening to Bitcoin right now, as the value of each bitcoin continues to grow even though 7200 BTC is created every day.

If detractors believe that price stability is the most important factor, then they will require some method of adjusting the rate of inflation to counter change in value.

Yes, linear generation will approach 0% inflation. I'm prepared though with Expocoin.

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January 15, 2011, 12:59:53 PM
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Okay, I'm sorry I went on for so long.

Of course I know that a limited currency is better. My point is just like you said though, the layman doesn't get it right now. He hears about Bitcoin and says "Won't work, it's limited money". Now you have choices, I've been going "blah blah blah limited is better because blah" and I get tuned out or dismissed with the crap I've been spouting in this thread. Another option would be "Oh, you might like Timecoin then". Now maybe they load it, generate a few, go to TimecoinExchange.com or Timecoin2Bitcoin.com and then they know which can store value. But instead of wasting time arguing theory they got some experience and worked with a system that works just like Bitcoin, they copied an address, they learned to be careful, they get how an online wallet works, etc. It's silly for people to keep using gov money because they lack some knowledge and want to argue.

This is the point I made after my draft proof about market-equilibrium: there will be those who flat out reject any inflation-limited currency, and will therefore ignore the many benefits of the distributed p2p network proof-of-work cryptographic currency model.  These people simply won't join bitcoin.  So they currently aren't helping the cause.  But if someone creates a timecoin mod of bitcoin, then they will help the cause.  Only drawback, I think is that it might take away contributors to the bitcoin network.  But as I argue, in market equilibrium, these arguments about inflation vs. deflation currency are in a sense irrelevant.

What is the cause, you ask?  Why, the cause is freedom, of course.  More specifically, allowing people to trade freely without the control of governments.

Think about Linux.  There are soo many varieties of Linux out there.  Various Linux kernels: embedded linux kernels, desktop linux kernel, cellphone linux kernel, supercomputer linux kernel.  Various Linux distributions: Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse, Arch, etc.  Various architectural to compile for: x86, arm, sparc, etc.  Everyone has their own little niche, and their own little silly preferences (even though they may be silly).  But all this variety is good, because it gets more people behind the cause of freedom!

Edit: another negative drawback of having timecoin (in addition to splitting the network power) is that vendors will have more currencies to support (in addition to whatever fiat currencies, paypal, google checkout, visa, mastercard, etc.).  So if you do intend to go the route of making a timecoin client, please make it as compatible with bitcoin as possible.  I'd say it is even possible to have one client program that can generate both bitcoin and timecoin, and maybe switch between the two with a simple command-line option or menu option.  That way, a supporter of timecoin could easily change into a support of bitcoin.  (heck, it would even be possible lateron to have a slider to select the percentage of hashes spent for timecoin vs bitcoin).

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
Anonymous
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January 15, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
 #19

There is one big difference here...it would be voluntary to join. That means I support it.


 Smiley

I dont know if youll change the mind of people who disagree so just do it and if the product is good people will use it.


Plus I want to buy timecoins at .001  lol.


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January 15, 2011, 01:44:24 PM
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Edit: another negative drawback of having timecoin (in addition to splitting the network power) is that vendors will have more currencies to support (in addition to whatever fiat currencies, paypal, google checkout, visa, mastercard, etc.).  So if you do intend to go the route of making a timecoin client, please make it as compatible with bitcoin as possible.  I'd say it is even possible to have one client program that can generate both bitcoin and timecoin, and maybe switch between the two with a simple command-line option or menu option.  That way, a supporter of timecoin could easily change into a support of bitcoin.  (heck, it would even be possible lateron to have a slider to select the percentage of hashes spent for timecoin vs bitcoin).

Exchange between bitcoin-like currencies will be deadly simple. Vendors can safely just take the most common one or their favorite or whatever and people can convert on the fly. I don't think there is an equilibrium that includes a lot of chains with similar rules, but if that is where we end up I don't think the vendor thing is a problem. And even if they had to set up to take multiple types directly, all of the hardware will be identical and the software will have minor changes and be easily available anyway. And of course there will be demand for seamless integration into one interface.

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