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Author Topic: Timecoin  (Read 12633 times)
Babylon
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January 15, 2011, 01:46:39 PM
 #21

I'm not planning on generating timecoin, if someone wishes to pay me for services in timecoin, I'd prefer he or she buy bitcoin with his or her timecoin and pay me with that.  If it doesn't easily trade to bitcoin I don't want it.

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January 15, 2011, 01:49:55 PM
 #22

In related news, people are offering to buy testnet coins for bitcoin on bitcoin-otc.

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January 15, 2011, 02:12:24 PM
 #23

I posted a similar proposal a few weeks ago : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_inflation
However, I believe that it is way too early for such a thing to be created.
For the moment we should focus on how to expand the Bitcoin economy.

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January 15, 2011, 02:14:39 PM
 #24

When I first read the original post I thought "oh great, the primary reason I loved bitcoin is being undermined".  But the more I think about it the more I support the idea of timecoin.

As a marketing exercise, timecoin makes sense for the reasons FreeMoney has already outlined.
It will also make an excellent economics exercise.  People will be able to see quite obviously the benefits of a non-inflationary currency like bitcoin as their timecoins dwindle in value on the BTC/TMC exchange.

So I'm in!  Let me know when/where I can download the timecoin client.

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January 16, 2011, 12:10:38 AM
 #25


Edit: another negative drawback of having timecoin (in addition to splitting the network power) is that vendors will have more currencies to support (in addition to whatever fiat currencies, paypal, google checkout, visa, mastercard, etc.).  So if you do intend to go the route of making a timecoin client, please make it as compatible with bitcoin as possible.  I'd say it is even possible to have one client program that can generate both bitcoin and timecoin, and maybe switch between the two with a simple command-line option or menu option.  That way, a supporter of timecoin could easily change into a support of bitcoin.  (heck, it would even be possible lateron to have a slider to select the percentage of hashes spent for timecoin vs bitcoin).

Exchange between bitcoin-like currencies will be deadly simple. Vendors can safely just take the most common one or their favorite or whatever and people can convert on the fly. I don't think there is an equilibrium that includes a lot of chains with similar rules, but if that is where we end up I don't think the vendor thing is a problem. And even if they had to set up to take multiple types directly, all of the hardware will be identical and the software will have minor changes and be easily available anyway. And of course there will be demand for seamless integration into one interface.

Yes, I agree...that's why I'm saying make it as similar to bitcoin as possible, for ease of support.

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January 16, 2011, 02:21:56 AM
 #26


This is the point I made after my draft proof about market-equilibrium: there will be those who flat out reject any inflation-limited currency, and will therefore ignore the many benefits of the distributed p2p network proof-of-work cryptographic currency model.  These people simply won't join bitcoin.

I think that they will eventually.  Many enlightened people didn't believe that the public would long suffer fiat currencies once fractional reserve banking was legalized, and many more believed that worldwide abandonment of the gold standard would lead to major monetary crisis (true) and that the economicly educated among the world powers would clamor for a return to sound money. (false)

If bitcoin takes off, it will not be because of it's limited monetary base, since it's going to be inflationary for a very long time.  If it takes off, and I am betting a great deal that it will within three years, it will be because it's a more efficient and more convient monetary system than otherwise currently exists.  At which point, the refusniks will either begrudingly drop their objections in order to participate in the new economy, forever waiting for the day of the "great Bitcoin collapse"; or simply drop out of Bitcoin economy and render themselves irrelevant.

If someone were to implement Timecoin, how would the initial distribution of the currency work?  Bitcoin has solved this problem elegantly, but if Timecoin has a fixed inflationary structure, say 2% per year, how would this be enforced by the network?  Would you start, say with everyone there at the genesis block sharing a fixed starting amount, and then each block then distributes whatever amount would equal a 2% APR?  (Say starting with 10.5 million coins, first block would be 3.9954378, second would be 3.99543531, etc).  Talk about getting screwed if you are the guy who joined the network 6 minutes after teh genesis block.  Enough people on this list bitch about the advantages of "early adopters" with Bitcoin.  If you choose to distribute teh first 10.5 million coins in the same way as Bitcoin, and then switch to a 2% APR forever, it would be decades before the problems with inflation would be noticed.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 16, 2011, 02:33:05 AM
 #27

"I refuse to use Bitcoin, it doesn't lose value over time!"

That's just silly and shows how people got brainwashed by the XX century monetary system Roll Eyes
Anyway, go ahead and try...

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January 16, 2011, 05:26:28 AM
 #28


This is the point I made after my draft proof about market-equilibrium: there will be those who flat out reject any inflation-limited currency, and will therefore ignore the many benefits of the distributed p2p network proof-of-work cryptographic currency model.  These people simply won't join bitcoin.

I think that they will eventually.  Many enlightened people didn't believe that the public would long suffer fiat currencies once fractional reserve banking was legalized, and many more believed that worldwide abandonment of the gold standard would lead to major monetary crisis (true) and that the economicly educated among the world powers would clamor for a return to sound money. (false)

If bitcoin takes off, it will not be because of it's limited monetary base, since it's going to be inflationary for a very long time.  If it takes off, and I am betting a great deal that it will within three years, it will be because it's a more efficient and more convient monetary system than otherwise currently exists.  At which point, the refusniks will either begrudingly drop their objections in order to participate in the new economy, forever waiting for the day of the "great Bitcoin collapse"; or simply drop out of Bitcoin economy and render themselves irrelevant.

If someone were to implement Timecoin, how would the initial distribution of the currency work?  Bitcoin has solved this problem elegantly, but if Timecoin has a fixed inflationary structure, say 2% per year, how would this be enforced by the network?  Would you start, say with everyone there at the genesis block sharing a fixed starting amount, and then each block then distributes whatever amount would equal a 2% APR?  (Say starting with 10.5 million coins, first block would be 3.9954378, second would be 3.99543531, etc).  Talk about getting screwed if you are the guy who joined the network 6 minutes after teh genesis block.  Enough people on this list bitch about the advantages of "early adopters" with Bitcoin.  If you choose to distribute teh first 10.5 million coins in the same way as Bitcoin, and then switch to a 2% APR forever, it would be decades before the problems with inflation would be noticed.

Timecoin does not have a fixed inflation rate that would be something called Expocoin. Timecoin has a fixed generation rate, the % increase drops over time. We can try them all. I suppose the currency best suited for a growing economy would be Expocoin with a high % corresponding to the rate of growth you want. 2%, 3%, 15%, 100%, whatever. Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.

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January 16, 2011, 02:10:12 PM
 #29

Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.

Are you being serious here or sarcastic?

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January 16, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
 #30

IMO if money is produced ad infinitum, then people will mostly just want to sit and farm all day, and then want to get rid of the timecoins they earned from it due to the fact that the longer they hold onto bitcoins, the less valuable they become. The market will be full of people trying to get rid of coins, and nobody wanting to receive the coins. It will cause huge inflation problems.

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January 16, 2011, 10:17:49 PM
 #31

Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.

Are you being serious here or sarcastic?

I suppose sarcastic. I'm just trying to demonstrate the silliness of arguing with people who don't want to be convinced. I'd like them to have the opportunity to learn (or prove to me they are right!) by actually using Timecoin.

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January 16, 2011, 10:34:26 PM
 #32

...Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.
So you can explain to those people that 7200 new bitcoins are generated every single day! And, although the rate will decrease in the future, it won't drop to zero until after most of us are dead.
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January 17, 2011, 01:43:42 AM
 #33

The thing is that with today's advances the deflation of Bitcoin could be too big for an economy. Right now as someone pointed out we should focus in growing the economy.(The BTC/USD is now 0.4) There should be vendors everywhere promoting Bitcoins. If I don't see at least 100 persons daily adopting bitcoin from now on we must do a better effort.

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January 17, 2011, 01:58:08 AM
 #34

The thing is that with today's advances the deflation of Bitcoin could be too big for an economy. Right now as someone pointed out we should focus in growing the economy.(The BTC/USD is now 0.4) There should be vendors everywhere promoting Bitcoins. If I don't see at least 100 persons daily adopting bitcoin from now on we must do a better effort.

The deflation can't be 'too big' for the economy because it is cause by growth in the economy. More stuff on offer with a limited amount of coins means higher price per coin. If the bitcoin accepting economy shrinks then the value of a bitcoin will shrink.

Obviously I'm all for growing the economy, not contradicting that sentiment at all.

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em3rgentOrdr
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January 17, 2011, 10:30:38 AM
 #35

Timecoin does not have a fixed inflation rate that would be something called Expocoin. Timecoin has a fixed generation rate, the % increase drops over time. We can try them all. I suppose the currency best suited for a growing economy would be Expocoin with a high % corresponding to the rate of growth you want. 2%, 3%, 15%, 100%, whatever. Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.

How about BernankeCoin™, whose interest rate changes at will of Bernanke.  It would be pegged to the US dollar.  I think it'll be just great!  And look at how many people use the US dollar...that means BernankeCoin™ will be very popular!  Tongue

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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January 17, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
 #36

Timecoin does not have a fixed inflation rate that would be something called Expocoin. Timecoin has a fixed generation rate, the % increase drops over time. We can try them all. I suppose the currency best suited for a growing economy would be Expocoin with a high % corresponding to the rate of growth you want. 2%, 3%, 15%, 100%, whatever. Everyone knows economies are limited by the growth of the money base, that's why the FED has to print print print.

How about BernankeCoin™, whose interest rate changes at will of Bernanke.  It would be pegged to the US dollar.  I think it'll be just great!  And look at how many people use the US dollar...that means BernankeCoin™ will be very popular!  Tongue

that wouldn't work either, because you are then dependent upon some financial institution's ability to defend the peg.

If someone really wanted to attempt this, one way to do it would be to keep Bitcoin's halving pattern, but double the term with every halving of the reward.  If the starting term were still 4 years and the reward 50 Timecoins every 10 minutes or so, then 21 Million coins would be distributed in the first 12 years, and 31.5 million after 28 years, and so on.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 17, 2011, 11:04:11 PM
 #37

I suppose sarcastic. I'm just trying to demonstrate the silliness of arguing with people who don't want to be convinced. I'd like them to have the opportunity to learn (or prove to me they are right!) by actually using Timecoin.
feel your pain trying to change the thinking of sheeple, but that doesn't mean you have to implement the bad idea to prove they're wrong, there's no need, just watch the fate of US dollar (and other fiat currencies in the same sense). -- oh wait, has history seen enough failed currencies already?

Federal reserve and central banking have perfected the art of inflationary currency, I don't think timecoin can do better than that.

Anyway, I am still worried about the downside: split networks, added confusion, overextended resource, malinvestment...why don't we concentrate on what we believe is right?
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January 18, 2011, 01:33:13 AM
 #38

I suppose sarcastic. I'm just trying to demonstrate the silliness of arguing with people who don't want to be convinced. I'd like them to have the opportunity to learn (or prove to me they are right!) by actually using Timecoin.
feel your pain trying to change the thinking of sheeple, but that doesn't mean you have to implement the bad idea to prove they're wrong, there's no need, just watch the fate of US dollar (and other fiat currencies in the same sense). -- oh wait, has history seen enough failed currencies already?

Federal reserve and central banking have perfected the art of inflationary currency, I don't think timecoin can do better than that.

Anyway, I am still worried about the downside: split networks, added confusion, overextended resource, malinvestment...why don't we concentrate on what we believe is right?

It's so easy to implement that it is going to happen. It'll be a better experiment than the dollar because only one simple variable will be changed.

I think the split network concerns are unjustified, bitcoiners aren't going to bail en mass. Some new people will try Timecoin and see very few people accepting them as payment and a ridiculously low exchange rate to BTC and decide to switch to Bitcoin, and now we have a stronger network. It will be a temporary thing, unless it actually has some economic merit.

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January 18, 2011, 05:59:51 PM
 #39

The fundamentary flaw of this timecoin idea is that it is no different from "normal" currencies.
What makes bitcoin so special is that it is a "gold standard" currency - it is also a commodity, contrary to Timecoin, which will get inflated forever.

Bitcoin is "physical" in a way, because it behaves similarly to physical bullion - after you mine all of it from the ground, it's gone. Timecoin is not like this.
Essentially, it's scarcity that creates value. Abundance destroys value.

----
EDIT:

So what You're actually proposing here, is to create a clone of Bitcoin, which has all the properties of Bitcoin, except it has less value than Bitcoin by design. People will never go for this.

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January 18, 2011, 06:13:44 PM
 #40

The fundamentary flaw of this timecoin idea is that it is no different from "normal" currencies.
What makes bitcoin so special is that it is a "gold standard" currency - it is also a commodity, contrary to Timecoin, which will get inflated forever.

Bitcoin is "physical" in a way, because it behaves similarly to physical bullion - after you mine all of it from the ground, it's gone. Timecoin is not like this.
Essentially, it's scarcity that creates value. Abundance destroys value.
For Timecoin to work, it would have to be just scarce enough. Although, for the currency to act as a proper counterpart to Bitcoin, wouldn't each node decide on its own rate of inflation?

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