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Author Topic: Do I deserve to die and do I deserve healthcare?  (Read 3626 times)
david4dev
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July 11, 2011, 10:59:38 PM
 #21

What if nobody is willing to help? Then is it ok for me to die? Also, I would never threaten violence or death because both are immoral.
Life sucks, sometimes good people die. We can't save everyone, it's not possible.

Unfortunately, if we save one person who it is expensive to save, we have to let die a few people who it is cheaper to save.


That is not true. We can save the one and the few, it would just cost more. In my opinion, this is a price worth paying.

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david4dev
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July 11, 2011, 11:06:12 PM
 #22

Taxes are generally deducted directly from the salary (PAYE) - people rarely have to 'pay'.

That is like saying "The slaves didn't have to pay a thing. Their housing and food was provided for them" Money you never see is still stolen from you.

It is true that the slaves didn't have to pay anything. However, they were not receiving any payment for their work which is wrong.

You are still getting money for your work. For employees it is equivalent to earning a lower salary. For employers it is equivalent to paying a higher salary.

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July 11, 2011, 11:15:35 PM
 #23

Taxes are generally deducted directly from the salary (PAYE) - people rarely have to 'pay'.

That is like saying "The slaves didn't have to pay a thing. Their housing and food was provided for them" Money you never see is still stolen from you.

It is true that the slaves didn't have to pay anything. However, they were not receiving any payment for their work which is wrong.

You are still getting money for your work. For employees it is equivalent to earning a lower salary. For employers it is equivalent to paying a higher salary.

So, 100% slavery is wrong, but 5% is OK? Where do you draw the line? 50%? 75%?

Also, What of my other question?

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July 11, 2011, 11:26:18 PM
 #24

That is not true. We can save the one and the few, it would just cost more. In my opinion, this is a price worth paying.
We can't save everyone, it's simply not possible. The demand is effectively unlimited.

Worse, for many people, saving them will kill someone else. Every dollar spent on health care is one dollar that couldn't have been spent on something else, and those other things save lives too. Maybe it's the person who feeds their family at McDonald's because it's cheap, maybe it's the person who can't afford a Volvo and gets into an accident, maybe it's the person who drives because they can't afford airfare and gets hit by a drunk driver -- but taxes kill people.

You only see the person you saved, but the people you are killing are there too.

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Fakeman
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July 12, 2011, 01:23:08 AM
 #25

It's not really slavery if you're free to leave. Personally I'd rather see my taxes go to healthcare than oversized military and prisons for example.

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July 12, 2011, 01:27:44 AM
 #26

IMO, humanity as a whole should try to find ways to reduce the cost for keeping anyone alive so that eventually all deaths (if any) would be an intentional decision and people would never be sentenced to death due to the costs of keeping them alive, regardless of who they are.

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July 12, 2011, 02:04:42 AM
 #27

It's not really slavery if you're free to leave. Personally I'd rather see my taxes go to healthcare than oversized military and prisons for example.

It's not slavery, if you get to choose who you're enslaved to?

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July 12, 2011, 02:18:05 AM
 #28

To the people who are saying "We can't save everyone." don't get it. In a society with no slavery, more people would have the means to help and they shall. People inherently value other human beings and will give with no incentive. Otherwise, I doubt we would be propagating governments that supposedly care anyways.

People naturally give a fuck.
NghtRppr
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July 12, 2011, 02:22:14 AM
 #29

It's not really slavery if you're free to leave.

Some people just don't understand the difference between secession and emigration.
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July 12, 2011, 02:27:45 AM
 #30

And that relates to the quoted statement how?

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July 12, 2011, 02:33:13 AM
 #31

And that relates to the quoted statement how?
If you own property, you should be able to leave while still keeping your claims to it.
myrkul
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July 12, 2011, 02:44:53 AM
 #32

And that relates to the quoted statement how?

Maybe you should do a little research on 'Secession'

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July 12, 2011, 03:04:18 AM
 #33

I'm just baffled at the suggestion that disagreeing on what qualifies as "slavery" means I'm confusing the two concepts with each other. A way out is a way out, it might not be on your terms but that doesn't make you a prisoner.

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NghtRppr
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July 12, 2011, 03:06:20 AM
 #34

I'm just baffled at the suggestion that disagreeing on what qualifies as "slavery" means I'm confusing the two concepts with each other. A way out is a way out, it might not be on your terms but that doesn't make you a prisoner.

So if you can leave but you have to drop your wallet on the ground, does that mean you're not being stolen from?
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July 12, 2011, 03:17:50 AM
 #35

If the majority of people supported socialized medicine for the purpose of helping the needy, then socialized medicine shouldn't be necessary. >50% is more than enough people to provide charity without forcing stingy people to contribute. If you factor in the unintended consequences of forcing people to help out when they don't want to, the net returns for those particular funds taken by force or threat of force are actually negative. 

The truth is that the bleeding hearts don't want to help the needy unless everybody contributes their "fair" share with "fair" being determined and defined by the bleeding heart. Being generous with other people's money is not generosity.  Forced charity is not charity. Involuntarily taking someone's money is still theft even if it's done by the State and even if it's for a "good" cause and even if it's called "taxation".

Civilization is the triumph of persuasion over force. Socialized medicine is a step backwards.


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myrkul
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July 12, 2011, 03:23:16 AM
 #36

The truth is that the bleeding hearts don't want to help the needy unless everybody contributes their "fair" share with "fair" being determined and defined by the bleeding heart. Being generous with other people's money is not generosity.  Forced charity is not charity. Involuntarily taking someone's money is still theft even if it's done by the State and even if it's for a "good" cause and even if it's called "taxation".

Exactly.

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NghtRppr
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July 12, 2011, 03:29:54 AM
 #37

Or we could just keep fighting the War on Drugs, the War on Terrorism, and let the A.M.A., Pharma, and Med Insurance Banks write our legislation.

Just to expand on this idea. I wonder who is more likely to be able to effectively lobby for legislation, the poor and needy or moneyed special interest groups? Troll boy is worried about the rich funding private armies but that would at least be a step up from the rich that can just buy control of the public armies.
Alex Beckenham
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July 12, 2011, 03:36:07 AM
 #38

1) I was a hard working citizen but due to no fault of my own I lost my job and am currently looking for work but unable to find any.

Yeah, man works 40 years laying bricks and not once thinks about making a back-up plan.

Then loses job and cries "bricklaying is all I've ever known, how will I pay my rent now?".

Hey stupido, you had 40 years to make a back-up plan.

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July 12, 2011, 04:00:41 AM
 #39

1) I was a hard working citizen but due to no fault of my own I lost my job and am currently looking for work but unable to find any.

Yeah, man works 40 years laying bricks and not once thinks about making a back-up plan.

Then loses job and cries "bricklaying is all I've ever known, how will I pay my rent now?".

Hey stupido, you had 40 years to make a back-up plan.

Haha, I love that.  Totally agree.
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July 12, 2011, 04:02:03 AM
 #40

Troll boy is worried about the rich funding private armies but that would at least be a step up from the rich that can just buy control of the public armies.

Is the outcome of these two scenarios any different?  There are too many religious zealots in my area...  It might turn out like somalia or some other fucked up tribal nation. We need a resurgence of Quakers and Anabaptist in our christian population?  I prefer my original position and veil of ignorance, at least until someone comes up with a model I find preferable.  I must state I haven't read Nozick yet.

The difference is that I am not taxed to pay for the private armies.  People who have to fund their own wars are more reluctant to engage in war in the first place.

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