[Poll] Burnins BitFury miner

[shapemaker]

Pricing isn't based manufacturing costs, it's based on how much people are willing to pay. Charging the maximum the market will bear isn't greed, it's just smart business. They'd be idiots to give their product away for less than they could get out of it.

What is idiotic is comments like this. You don't know how much the network hashrate grows in the coming months, and pricing your product so high the miners won't even ROI if the growth is just slightly higher than pessimistic estimates is just plain greedy - offloading the risk to miners. Besides, if every manufacturer followed your advice of not selling to "the public", you'd just get centralization of the network hashpower - the exact opposite that Bitcoin is supposed to achieve.

Actually he is true. From a business point of view it's better to sell at what people are willing to pay than at manufacturing costs+small profit, but you need to find the sweet spot.

That is true in a normal market. This however is more akin to investing than a normal market. Hence also we miners expect to see a return on our INVESTMENT.

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[shapemaker]

You don't take into account us who have already paid these people money to make Avalon chip based miners and now are forced to take a 30% loss in converting our old orders to these new boards.

He is generously offering to refund you a proportion of the money that you spent on a non-refundable deal - and you are bitching that he is somehow in the wrong?

Looks like we have a different definition of "generous".

It's called damage control. The Avalon based boards became a total loss already some time ago, hence "forced" to get a refund from group buy and "forced" to convert my order to BitFury based one to lose _less_ than the 50% already stated to be gone.

But hey, if it's bitching in your definition to ask why these new boards are priced so high that even these are a losing proposition... be my guest.

Fact is, someone is price gouging on these new boards, and the question now remains if the idea is just to squeeze as much extra money out of us pre-orderers as possible.

[frostedflakes]

Pricing isn't based manufacturing costs, it's based on how much people are willing to pay. Charging the maximum the market will bear isn't greed, it's just smart business. They'd be idiots to give their product away for less than they could get out of it.

What is idiotic is comments like this. You don't know how much the network hashrate grows in the coming months, and pricing your product so high the miners won't even ROI if the growth is just slightly higher than pessimistic estimates is just plain greedy - offloading the risk to miners. Besides, if every manufacturer followed your advice of not selling to "the public", you'd just get centralization of the network hashpower - the exact opposite that Bitcoin is supposed to achieve.

Actually he is true. From a business point of view it's better to sell at what people are willing to pay than at manufacturing costs+small profit, but you need to find the sweet spot.

Exactly. They're running a business, not a charity. I mean I can understand people's frustrations, but at the end of the day their job is to make money, not guarantee us a certain ROI or make us money.

And we all know how crazy things have been with Bitcoin and ASICs. Their margins may be healthy with current pricing, but then maybe in 2-3 months they'll have to sell the boards at razor thin margins or even take a loss on them just to get rid of the remaining inventory. How much time and money did they lose on those Avalon boards that became worthless before they even shipped, for example? Very soon the amount of Bitcoins generated by these BitFury boards and price people are willing to pay for them may be exceeded by how much it cost them to purchase the chips/other components and manufacture/distribute the boards. This may all be stuff they're taking into account when you see that €699 price. You have to appreciate that they are taking a risk here as well, it's certainly not only the miners who are putting their $$$ at stake.

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

[RoadStress]

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

Well i am aware that i wasn't guaranteed that price, but i just trusted burnin. He was usually a man of word and he never said anything about the price going up for this boards and cryptx kept it secret until he opened his store (no idea what's the logic there). I already said that i'm ok with the loss and will try to minimize it and i will move on. I don't have a grudge against anyone.

[frostedflakes]

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

Well i am aware that i wasn't guaranteed that price, but i just trusted burnin. He was usually a man of word and he never said anything about the price going up for this boards and cryptx kept it secret until he opened his store (no idea what's the logic there). I already said that i'm ok with the loss and will try to minimize it and i will move on. I don't have a grudge against anyone.

Sorry didn't mean for the post to sound like it was directed at you, was just speaking generally.

And yeah burnin sounds like a pretty good guy and sounds like he's checking into the pricing to see if there's any wiggle room. Hopefully they can get it down a bit. Sounds like part of the higher cost is just higher parts cost, though. Don't know how much of it is that and how much is CryptX's markup.

[itod]

Fact is, someone is price gouging on these new boards, and the question now remains if the idea is just to squeeze as much extra money out of us pre-orderers as possible.

This a reason why USA companies prevail when they enter the market. Look at the way HashFast and Cointerra already get in the price-down war, while Euro companies always look at the how much they can earn short-term. Yes, you can place yourself 10% below punin official site, but that should not be an idea. You could have priced your board near price everybody expected and eat the market alive, and your total earnings would be much bigger in the long run.

[shapemaker]

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

Well i am aware that i wasn't guaranteed that price, but i just trusted burnin. He was usually a man of word and he never said anything about the price going up for this boards and cryptx kept it secret until he opened his store (no idea what's the logic there). I already said that i'm ok with the loss and will try to minimize it and i will move on. I don't have a grudge against anyone.

Burnin actually just emailed me that he doesn't have anything to do with the final pricing of these boards. He stated in another thread that the price rose somewhat (more parts etc) and that he takes a reasonable margin on his work (whatever that is).

We know the chips cost 360 euros per board, so that means there's already 110 euro reserved for parts and labour, design etc. Increase that by maybe 30 euro for reasonable amount, and we'd get about 500 euro for a board from burnin directly. The BitBurner XX assembly etc cost about 100 euro so I don't think I'm that far off with 140 euro for parts, labour etc.

Now you can decide for yourselves if 200 euros for distributor is a reasonable amount. An increase of 40%, and 43% more than I estimate burnin charges for his parts and labour.

[shapemaker]

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

Well i am aware that i wasn't guaranteed that price, but i just trusted burnin. He was usually a man of word and he never said anything about the price going up for this boards and cryptx kept it secret until he opened his store (no idea what's the logic there). I already said that i'm ok with the loss and will try to minimize it and i will move on. I don't have a grudge against anyone.

Sorry didn't mean for the post to sound like it was directed at you, was just speaking generally.

And yeah burnin sounds like a pretty good guy and sounds like he's checking into the pricing to see if there's any wiggle room. Hopefully they can get it down a bit. Sounds like part of the higher cost is just higher parts cost, though. Don't know how much of it is that and how much is CryptX's markup.

By my estimation, the markup of cryptx is around 200 euros. That's quite large at 40%.

[RoadStress]

We know the chips cost 360 euros per board, so that means there's already 110 euro reserved for parts and labour, design etc. Increase that by maybe 30 euro for reasonable amount, and we'd get about 500 euro for a board from burnin directly. The BitBurner XX assembly etc cost about 100 euro so I don't think I'm that far off with 140 euro for parts, labour etc.

The 360 euros for the chips is based on the retail price of the chips, but i was hoping burnin may get a better deal on the chips since he will sell assambled miners and will buy them in bigger numbers, but considering the final price of the board i was awfully wrong.

[shapemaker]

Actually he is true. From a business point of view it's better to sell at what people are willing to pay than at manufacturing costs+small profit, but you need to find the sweet spot.

Exactly. They're running a business, not a charity. I mean I can understand people's frustrations, but at the end of the day their job is to make money, not guarantee us a certain ROI or make us money.

If they're not willing to sell at a price that doesn't make a loss to the buyer, there is absolutely no point in buying. The smart buyers (those not blinded by the "gold rush") will stay away and invest when there is a reasonable chance at profit. And I don't mean 0,5 BTC profit per board or something ridiculous like that. When I invested in Avalon chip based boards, the indications all were at a reasonable profit, since the days of 10x profit were already gone.

You have to appreciate that they are taking a risk here as well, it's certainly not only the miners who are putting their $$$ at stake.

You're dead wrong. The risk is _all_ on the customers investors here. They're not selling at loss, remember.

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

I didn't say I had invested more than I could lose. I'm at a comfortable spot, having a good chunk of BTC from earlier investments waiting for a good deal. One that makes profit for the seller, and also to me. If the selling part isn't willing to provide me with a _reasonable_ price... well, I can try to convince them to sell for less, or go elsewhere.

[tigerbit]

Differences between €699 is and original price of €470 is probably distributor's margin mostly.
Those who think they will get their boards before early November, I suggest to think twice.
To those wanting to support burnin, you guys could always donate.
I am out and deleting my vote as conditions were changed.

I waited for long to buy a product from burnin and now seeing what was done, I can just feel sorry for the energy, time, effort and money of all people involved (including myself).

@burnin,
I do appreciate your work and effort, and if I may say; you shouldn't allow this to happen.
If distributor is to be blamed, get rid of them and do business with someone having more realistic view on market and with one willing to work with less margin.
If you can't find anyone, do it yourself or you will loose all these people waiting for your boards.
I am speaking this as a friend, and this is just a hobby for me to support network and get involved. Having said that and, I don't want to overpay what ever product I am buying and this one is too expensive for me and probably bad investment with price set way too high.

You said it better than me Same boat here!

+1
If the deal was exclusive, burnin has handed a monopoly to Cryptx and asic-hardware.com.  Cryptx already has his orderbooks from the bitburner - with the correct pricing this would have been a win-win-win for manufacturer-distributor-customer.

I hope this wasn't an exclusive deal and burnin may consider allowing the free market to dictate distributor pricing by stating minimum orders and terms of business for new distributorships.  Group buy anyone?  TBH unless anyone has volumes of Bitfury chips about to be shipped, it's almost academic and the monopoly will both prevail and likely fail (if that's even possible!), dragging burnin's reputation down with it.

[shapemaker]

If the deal was exclusive, burnin has handed a monopoly to Cryptx and asic-hardware.com.  Cryptx already has his orderbooks from the bitburner - with the correct pricing this would have been a win-win-win for manufacturer-distributor-customer.

I hope this wasn't an exclusive deal and burnin may consider allowing the free market to dictate distributor pricing by stating minimum orders and terms of business for new distributorships.  Group buy anyone?  TBH unless anyone has volumes of Bitfury chips about to be shipped, it's almost academic and the monopoly will both prevail and likely fail (if that's even possible!), dragging burnin's reputation down with it.

It would be quite bad if cryptx has an exclusive deal with burnin. I'm thinking forward too, looking at the next gen board burnin is supposed to make (CoinCraft). If cryptx is the distributor for those also, I can cross that off my "follow closely" list.

[creativex]

I contacted burnin about distributing his products stateside, but unfortunately received no response.

[bobsag3]

I contacted burnin about distributing his products stateside, but unfortunately received no response.

Same here.

[baloo_kiev]

I think pricing is quite fair but where's the 8-chip board?!

I had an order for 105 EUR BitBurner, 150 total incl. raspi and shipping. Now I'm supposed to get discount for a 700 EUR product. Avalon-based model used to be the best (and maybe even only) entry-level miner on the market. The new one is not anymore.

[shapemaker]

I think pricing is quite fair

Then you clearly haven't done the math on this offer. Please do.

[RoadStress]

I think pricing is quite fair but where's the 8-chip board?!

I had an order for 105 EUR BitBurner, 150 total incl. raspi and shipping. Now I'm supposed to get discount for a 700 EUR product. Avalon-based model used to be the best (and maybe even only) entry-level miner on the market. The new one is not anymore.

It's not very economical to make an 8-chip board because of the fixed cost of the parts.

[baloo_kiev]

I think pricing is quite fair

Then you clearly haven't done the math on this offer. Please do.

I've done some. It's something like 0.13 BTC/GH + burnin madskillz overclocking up to 20%, I believe, with delivery in early October. May still make sense, although it's a high risk.

[baloo_kiev]

It's not very economical to make an 8-chip board because of the fixed cost of the parts.

Even with identical board and 8 chips it will be 520 EUR (700 - 180). Say 600 with shipping and accesories. Which is 0.2 BTC/GH. If burnin overclocks the chip to 5 GH, it becomes 0.16 BTC/GH.

[FlappySocks]

Dont forget to add VAT unless your exempt.  Then go and have a look at the latest difficulty chart.  Then think about will happen once all those KNC and Bitfury products ship in a few weeks.