Merit system for newbies (benefits)

[deisik]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here. It is sort of reflection of the merit system working in reverse order. The purpose of the proposed system would be twofold. First, it is drawing the attention of the long-standing members to the problems of the new user, and second, likely making the latter more constructive by providing a feedback mechanism. So this system would run in tandem with the merit system. You're welcome to discuss my proposal here. Just in case, this is not my idea, it was suggested by user PhuketSunset in this local Russian topic. I only formulated it and brought it here

A quick and dirty fix would be forbidding Legendary members to grant merits to other Legendary members (it is a waste of merits)

[drngocct]

Great idea! However I dont think that Theymos will take it into consideration. I need merits too, but I don't think your solution is realistic.
This one might cause massive abusement in the forum from newbies. There will have tons of newbie accounts which created only for getting free merit scores and selling them to higher-rank members.

[deisik]

Great idea! However I dont think that Theymos will take it into consideration. I need merits too, but I don't think your solution is realistic.
This one might cause massive abusement in the forum from newbies. There will have tons of newbie accounts which created only for getting free merit scores and selling them to higher-rank members.

These benefits wouldn't and shouldn't be merits

And they won't rank you up if that was your point, so registering multiple accounts for the sole purpose of promoting a certain higher-rank member would be meaningless. I admit this is still a very raw idea but somehow I feel there is some sense in it. We should just find a way how we could create a positive feedback loop from newbies and junior members. That is to make the merit system complete by furnishing it with a two-directional feedback device (of which we have only one half)

[deisik]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here. It is sort of reflection of the merit system working in reverse order. The purpose of the proposed system would be twofold. First, it is drawing the attention of the long-standing members to the problems of the new user, and second, likely making the latter more constructive by providing a feedback mechanism. So this system would run in tandem with the merit system. You're welcome to discuss my proposal here. Just in case, this is not my idea, it was suggested by user PhuketSunset in this local Russian topic. I only formulated it and brought it here

So give that user credit if you think they deserve it

   This is nice idea, but why dont you want to become a merit source and reward newbies yourself? Well if someone is thankful to a newbe he may say it to you, you may run some list of such users and potentially reward them in future.
   We need some constructive, active and trusted merit sourse in our local. I dont know you personally but I beleive you are decent candidate. Anyone is able to find hundreds of posts "that have not received nearly enough merit for how good they are" in your profile

Personally, I don't care a lot whether my posts are properly merited

Though I certainly care about their quality and usefulness. Regarding being a merit source myself, I'm already running something like what bill gator does here. But I decided to reward only newbies and juniors (since I'm not a merit source). So far I rewarded only one user from my community after I had started this endeavor (and he wasn't a novice member anyway). The other user to receive merit would likely be the one which I mentioned in the OP and whose idea I suggested above. But I expect them to put more effort in thinking it over. So I'm sort of middleman here really, though I like this idea myself (otherwise I wouldn't raise this question, obviously)

[jseverson]

And they won't rank you up if that was your point, so registering multiple accounts for the sole purpose of promoting a certain higher-rank member would be meaningless. I admit this is still a very raw idea but somehow I feel there is some sense in it. We should just find a way how we could create a positive feedback loop from newbies and junior members. That is to make the merit system complete by furnishing it with a two-directional feedback device (of which we have only one half)

Well, newbies can also earn sMerits by being given Merits, so that loop is already possible.

Still, this might be a good idea because there's currently little incentive for the older members to help out newbies knowing that they likely won't have any sMerits to give out (unless other older members see the random act of kindness I guess). The problem would lie in making sure the system doesn't encourage any more account farming, which is exactly what the Merit system hoped to combat, while making sure it gives enough incentives for older members to actually bother.

I personally think the Merit system is enough, except something has to be done with the scarcity (or general reluctance of awarding) of sMerits.

[deisik]

And they won't rank you up if that was your point, so registering multiple accounts for the sole purpose of promoting a certain higher-rank member would be meaningless. I admit this is still a very raw idea but somehow I feel there is some sense in it. We should just find a way how we could create a positive feedback loop from newbies and junior members. That is to make the merit system complete by furnishing it with a two-directional feedback device (of which we have only one half)

Well, newbies can also earn sMerits by being given Merits, so that loop is already possible.

Still, this might be a good idea because there's currently little incentive for the older members to help out newbies knowing that they likely won't have any sMerits to give out (unless other older members see the random act of kindness I guess). The problem would lie in making sure the system doesn't encourage any more account farming, which is exactly what the Merit system hoped to combat, while making sure it gives enough incentives for older members to actually bother.

I personally think the Merit system is enough, except something has to be done with the scarcity (or general reluctance of awarding) of sMerits.

Honestly, these are my thoughts exactly

And I have to tell you that I don't feel like giving out rewards, so this is an apparent flaw, deficiency, or imperfection in this system. And making s-merits burn after some time is not going to change anything, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather let them burn than give them to posters which I don't find worthy enough. And this is the gist of the matter. Old-timers here have become very pesky and meticulous about the quality and constructiveness (or lack thereof, huh) of the posts of other users, especially novice members. And this is where the benefit system could kick in and make the old-timers less reluctant. To sum it up, in addition to merits we also need a system that would incentivize higher ranks to share their s-merits with newbies

[pablito1989]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here. It is sort of reflection of the merit system working in reverse order. The purpose of the proposed system would be twofold. First, it is drawing the attention of the long-standing members to the problems of the new user, and second, likely making the latter more constructive by providing a feedback mechanism. So this system would run in tandem with the merit system. You're welcome to discuss my proposal here. Just in case, this is not my idea, it was suggested by user PhuketSunset in this local Russian topic. I only formulated it and brought it here

So give that user credit if you think they deserve it

Sorry but no.
This would only cause a confusing creation of new accounts by spammers.
I also hate the current Merit system.

[PhuketSunset]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here. It is sort of reflection of the merit system working in reverse order. The purpose of the proposed system would be twofold. First, it is drawing the attention of the long-standing members to the problems of the new user, and second, likely making the latter more constructive by providing a feedback mechanism. So this system would run in tandem with the merit system. You're welcome to discuss my proposal here. Just in case, this is not my idea, it was suggested by user PhuketSunset in this local Russian topic. I only formulated it and brought it here

So give that user credit if you think they deserve it

Thanks deisik for creating a discussion and supporting my idea. I agree, it's still quite raw, but I hope that together with other users we will improve it to make the forum better.

The idea is to get feedback from the levels below Member, who now don't have the opportunity to award other sMerit.

In this case, it will not be sMerit, but, for example, some points. For example, 10 points for helping Newbie will equal one Merit.

And forum admins can set rules: you can not pass scores to Newbie, but only Junior and higher ranks. Thus, we will reduce problems with the transfer of points among multi-accounts.

I hope that you will understand my idea.

[Jet Cash]

I understood that merit points are intended to improve the overall quality of the forum, and not just a means of ranking up juniors. I don't really need merit points, but to me they indicate an appreciation by the community for a post I have made, or a thread I have started. If I don't receive any points for a topic, then I'll probably move on and leave that alone. For example, I've started a few threads that I thought would create interesting discussions, and in some cases they have, Some of the replies have generated merit points, but I have received nothing for starting the thread. This tends to make me feel that it is better for me to be reactive rather than proactive.

So the point I am making is that merit points give me feedback about my post quality. They also allow me to send points as a thank you to people that I think are helping the forum.

[PhuketSunset]

I understood that merit points are intended to improve the overall quality of the forum, and not just a means of ranking up juniors. I don't really need merit points, but to me they indicate an appreciation by the community for a post I have made, or a thread I have started. If I don't receive any points for a topic, then I'll probably move on and leave that alone. For example, I've started a few threads that I thought would create interesting discussions, and in some cases they have, Some of the replies have generated merit points, but I have received nothing for starting the thread. This tends to make me feel that it is better for me to be reactive rather than proactive.

So the point I am making is that merit points give me feedback about my post quality. They also allow me to send points as a thank you to people that I think are helping the forum.

I agree, but we are talking about the fact that Newbie can't thank the more senior ranks, because they don't have sMerit.

[Vod]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here.

So if Merit is a non-commodity, would that make your idea an alt-non-commodity? 

I'd like to request a new ANC (or nANC) - members get points every time a post gets a "nod from Vod".

Seriously though, no more complication is necessary.  If you see someone providing exceptional help to a newbie, give them merit. 

[tinyblue]

I think it's a good idea. I understand the purpose of the Merit system, I just wish it was introduced a little later since I was so close to being a Full Member. Or that I would have posted more. But I understand the reasoning. It is what it is.

[deisik]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here.

So if Merit is a non-commodity, would that make your idea an alt-non-commodity? 

I'd like to request a new ANC (or nANC) - members get points every time a post gets a "nod from Vod".

Seriously though, no more complication is necessary.  If you see someone providing exceptional help to a newbie, give them merit. 

There is matter and there is antimatter

And this is how nature made it. On an even more serious note though, people don't seem very inclined to give their merits, especially to newbies. Someone has given you 5 merits for this post (he has the right, ain't my business), but how many merits have you given to novice members yourself? I see the same names in your sent merits list which I have seen here for years. And even those which I don't know are almost all Hero and Legendary members. Yes, I did run a quick check through the list, and I have found only two Junior members in your list of sent merits (this dude and this one) and not a single Newbie. Now tell me more about how this system is gonna work out. Higher ranks need to be motivated toward meriting novice members somehow. What about disallowing to grant merits to Legendary members by other Legendary members? To me, this is an obvious, heedless, needless, and even profane waste of merits (if we expect this system to be of any merit)

[veleten]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here.

So if Merit is a non-commodity, would that make your idea an alt-non-commodity? 

I'd like to request a new ANC (or nANC) - members get points every time a post gets a "nod from Vod".

Seriously though, no more complication is necessary.  If you see someone providing exceptional help to a newbie, give them merit. 

There is matter and there is antimatter

And this is how nature made it. On an even more serious note though, people don't seem very inclined to give their merits, especially to newbies. Someone has given you 5 merits for this post (he has the right, ain't my business), but how many merits have you given to novice members yourself? I see the same names in your sent merits list which I have seen here for years. And even those which I don't know are almost all Hero and Legendary members. Yes, I did run a quick check through the list, and I have found only two Junior members in your list of sent merits (this dude and this one) and not a single Newbie. Now tell me more about how this system is gonna work out. Higher ranks need to be motivated toward meriting novice members somehow. What about disallowing to grant merits to Legendary members by other Legendary members? To me, this is an obvious, heedless, needless, and even profane waste of merits (if we expect this system to be of any merit)

you forget  that every 1 Merit recieved gives you 0.5 sMerit,so a Legendary member that grants merit to another Legenadary member
gives him half a sMerit to distribute and is not a "profane" waste of merits ,as merits is not a finite resource or a badge of honour or a means to help the members to rank up
the main idea of it is to try and  imrove the overall quality of the forum
if I find that a Legendary member's post is of substance and is informative and helpful to the said newbies,do I have to clench my teeth and skip it?
also in general,psychologically,people tend to make safe choices and meriting established quality posters is easier and bears low risks  of getting accused of multiaccounting (in case you merit new accounts continuously you as well could be by the allhelpful neighbourhood watch here  )
think higher ranks should be motivated to spend their merits in general,not just on the newbies,maybe introduce a replenish/decay system for non-sources or add more people who
prove they can merit properly to the source pool
in any case it is for theymos to decide and it is too early to judge-the system is less than one week old

[deisik]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here.

So if Merit is a non-commodity, would that make your idea an alt-non-commodity? 

I'd like to request a new ANC (or nANC) - members get points every time a post gets a "nod from Vod".

Seriously though, no more complication is necessary.  If you see someone providing exceptional help to a newbie, give them merit. 

There is matter and there is antimatter

And this is how nature made it. On an even more serious note though, people don't seem very inclined to give their merits, especially to newbies. Someone has given you 5 merits for this post (he has the right, ain't my business), but how many merits have you given to novice members yourself? I see the same names in your sent merits list which I have seen here for years. And even those which I don't know are almost all Hero and Legendary members. Yes, I did run a quick check through the list, and I have found only two Junior members in your list of sent merits (this dude and this one) and not a single Newbie. Now tell me more about how this system is gonna work out. Higher ranks need to be motivated toward meriting novice members somehow. What about disallowing to grant merits to Legendary members by other Legendary members? To me, this is an obvious, heedless, needless, and even profane waste of merits (if we expect this system to be of any merit)

you forget  that every 1 Merit recieved gives you 0.5 sMerit,so a Legendary member that grants merit to another Legenadary member gives him half a sMerit to distribute and is not a "profane" waste of merits ,as merits is not a finite resource or a badge of honour or a means to help the members to rank up the main idea of it is to try and  imrove the overall quality of the forum
if I find that a Legendary member's post is of substance and is informative and helpful to the said newbies,do I have to clench my teeth and skip it?

Obviously, you should grant your s-merits to a member of a lower rank whose posts you consider valuable and constructive

This is how the merit system is supposed to work. Well, at least this is how I think it is supposed to work. In this paradigm, granting merits to Legendary members is meaningless, they don't get anything out of that (if you don't take into consideration pissing contests, of course). Arithmetically, if you've got, say, 100 s-merits, you can create only as many, i.e. 50+25+12+6+3+1=97. It means that after about 6 iterations there will be no more s-merits in the system. So, by granting s-merits to Legendary members, you effectively destroy s-merits without any real purpose, i.e. purpose envisioned by this system

[secondgarlic]

Is this system creating an incentive for users to give merits to other users? Even if it does, I think this is the problem that encompasses all other problems.

In an ideal world established members "should" give merits to newbies who are making  high quality posts, but is there any incentive other than goodwill? Are they penalized if they don't give merits? No, because this would be ridiculous and impossible to implement. Do they have a direct impact on their experience in the forum as a user (similar to how reddit actively rearranges posts based on upvotes)? A no to that as well.

In my opinion, if we can't address that, we will never get the merit system running as it was intended.

[PhuketSunset]

Is this system creating an incentive for users to give merits to other users? Even if it does, I don Because I think this is the problem that encompasses all other problems.

In an ideal world established members "should" give merits to newbies who are making  high quality posts, but is there any incentive other than goodwill? Are they penalized if they don't give merits? No, because this would be ridiculous and impossible to implement. Do they have a direct impact on their experience in the forum as a user (similar to how reddit actively rearranges posts based on upvotes)? A no to that as well.

In my opinion, if we can't address that, we will never get the merit system running as it was intended.

My idea is not to build an ideal world in which we "take the merits from the rich and give them to the poor" (although deisik really bravely protect the rights of members of all ranks like Robin Hood), but in ADDITIONING the current system of rewards.

The points I spoke about can allow Newbie to also give the right to vote on a par with senior ranks.

[gamer_2088]

I think that at the moment of testing of this system could be allowed one "free" tier without merit. For beginners to introduce a preferential increase in rank. To the member without merits.

[deisik]

Is this system creating an incentive for users to give merits to other users? Even if it does, I don Because I think this is the problem that encompasses all other problems.

In an ideal world established members "should" give merits to newbies who are making  high quality posts, but is there any incentive other than goodwill? Are they penalized if they don't give merits? No, because this would be ridiculous and impossible to implement. Do they have a direct impact on their experience in the forum as a user (similar to how reddit actively rearranges posts based on upvotes)? A no to that as well.

In my opinion, if we can't address that, we will never get the merit system running as it was intended.

And here's where the benefit system kicks in

It should augment the current merit system in the following way (as I see it). Right now all ranks can give merits to any other ranks, and as is now evident, higher ranks are not very willing to give merits to lower ranks, especially newbies and junior members (see my post above). We could build a system where only a unidirectional movement of merits would be possible, e.g. from higher to lower ranks. I feel that it won't work very well unless we couple it with a system which would allow movement of merits (benefits, in my speak) in the opposite direction. Obviously, these two systems should be coupled in a certain way that would allow conversion of merits into benefits and vice versa. So the real question here is how we are going to make these two systems complement each other in a coherent and constructive way contributing to the purpose intended. That's the question I want to discuss further here

[audrey12]

The idea consists in giving new members a certain amount of points (let's call them benefits for simplicity), which they can use to reward users helping them here. It is sort of reflection of the merit system working in reverse order. The purpose of the proposed system would be twofold. First, it is drawing the attention of the long-standing members to the problems of the new user, and second, likely making the latter more constructive by providing a feedback mechanism. So this system would run in tandem with the merit system. You're welcome to discuss my proposal here. Just in case, this is not my idea, it was suggested by user PhuketSunset in this local Russian topic. I only formulated it and brought it here

A quick and dirty fix would be forbidding Legendary members to grant merits to other Legendary members (it is a waste of merits)

Not a bad idea but should you consider those account farmers who will actually benefit by this? they will get more opportunity to give merits on their other accounts might as well they only create new bitcointalk account just to collect those merits. With this issue I don't merit system will serve it's purpose properly and will only tolerate farming of accounts.