Now it's when people start calling overly pessimistic bottoms

[cellard]

This is horrible advice. What logic suggests that bitcoin will ever set a new all time high again? Why do you think it's not a problem that bitcoin is not scalable and therefore can never become a universal currency? Why is it not a problem that transaction fees are absurdly high and take a long time? What about the fact that governments are cracking down and companies are banning crypto-related services and ads?

And most of all, what about the fact that there is now much greater competition among alt coins than there ever was in the past, making the crypto space infinitely inflationary? Why are none of these things an issue? Any one of these is enough reason for bitcoin to never reach its previous highs again. Honestly this decline is more than warranted. It should continue for quite a while and I don't see any reason to think it will ever recover. This is very different from in the past for all of the reasons I mentioned above.

For the record, I owned bitcoin for years and sold my last remaining btc at $17,700.

Agree.

First of all bitcoin simply can't replicate the 9000% gains it's had in the past. It would require billions entering bitcoin to achieve that.

Secondly, it's a red flag that merchants are dumping bitcoin, but enabling alts. It means that the network effect is switching from bitcoin towards alts.

It wouldn't be that hard and far fetched for billions to enter bitcoin in the future if you consider the insane amount of money out there:

https://money.visualcapitalist.com/worlds-money-markets-one-visualization-2017/

Considering the huge capital sitting on completely nonsensical assets like most bonds which will not make it long term, many companies which will stop giving out dividends, or who knows if the S&P500 will get an huge correction in the coming 2 years, plus the always underperforming gold lately... there's many, many billions that are going to end up in Bitcoin eventually, and when that happens the gains we will see will make it go parabolic dwarfing previous events.

[Stedsm]

I personally don't see this as pessimism but a clamber of investments and opportunities are being created for those who wanted Bitcoins for low.
People are being scared currently by their Governments that Bitcoins may be banned, but can it ever be? There's a simple answer, No.
Smart investors are taking the advantage of panic sells and buying it at current price (who knows whether this is not the bottom yet), but they are still buying it. Some buying to make more profits while others to recover their loss, but whoever is purchasing is thinking smart instead of selling off their current stash.

[ktabb]

The scaling problems are being addressed with new research on signature formats and second layer solutions, not to mention that for BTC to reach $100,000+ it would only require a small % of capital allocated in gold to get into bitcoin, so solely as a store of value, ignoring the fee problems, BTC has a potential of 6 figures.

Anyone that got into Bitcoin thinking that governments wouldn't attack it is delusional, crypto-related services and ICO scams being advertised are irrelevant for Bitcoin's rise.

Altcoins do not inflate Bitcoin, Bitcoin still has a 21 million coin limit supply.

Bitcoin will reach a new all time high, either as an underground stoppable store of value alone keeping people's wealth safe from corrupt governments, or as a successful currency via second layers as well.

We will revisit your post once we reach ATH.

Lightning network addresses transaction/scalability issues to an extent, but still has many open questions.

Why on earth would any portion of gold investment go into bitcoin to have it as a store of value when its value can drop by 20% or more in just a day? How is that storing value? Ask the people who bought at $15k+ how that is working out for them as a store of value. For something to be a store of value it should have a very long history of doing so, being physical is a big plus, it should have intrinsic value, and it should be very non-volatile. Bitcoin has none of these properties.

Altcoins give bitcoin competition and inflate the entire crypto space, thus pushing down the price of all cryptocurrencies, bitcoin most of all (since it is the current market leader). The more alt coins that get created, the more competition there is and the more spread out crypto investments become.

Bitcoin does not keep people's wealth safe. It puts it in extreme danger by exposing it to insane volatility, and potential inability to liquidate. If exchanges were banned, even if you had offline coins you could never liquidate them.

Yes please let's revisit this post.

[cellard]

Lightning network addresses transaction/scalability issues to an extent, but still has many open questions.

Of course, but it's looking good, the mainnet is working fine, we are on the early days, if you want to get rich you can't get in when everything is clear, no risk no reward.

Why on earth would any portion of gold investment go into bitcoin to have it as a store of value when its value can drop by 20% or more in just a day? How is that storing value? Ask the people who bought at $15k+ how that is working out for them as a store of value. For something to be a store of value it should have a very long history of doing so, being physical is a big plus, it should have intrinsic value, and it should be very non-volatile. Bitcoin has none of these properties.

Ehh, because gold is a failure as a store of wealth, as it can be confiscated with a simple law, namely:



All the government needs to do is to pass this law once again, then you are stuck with an useless piece of metal, which you will never be able to move across borders, and believe me, the government will find your gold if you attempt to hide in your backyard.

With bitcoin, you can store it and move it around seamlessly, this makes it worth $trillions alone, the world just has to catch up to this fact.

Altcoins give bitcoin competition and inflate the entire crypto space, thus pushing down the price of all cryptocurrencies, bitcoin most of all (since it is the current market leader). The more alt coins that get created, the more competition there is and the more spread out crypto investments become.

Altcoins are scams, the market has yet to realize this, once it realizes this, all the money in scams will go to bitcoin. Until then and while it's profitable, speculating with altcoins (to sell them for more bitcoins) will continue.

Bitcoin does not keep people's wealth safe. It puts it in extreme danger by exposing it to insane volatility, and potential inability to liquidate. If exchanges were banned, even if you had offline coins you could never liquidate them.

Yes it does. Nobody can steal your bitcoins, nobody can counterfeit it, gold can. Volatility against fiat is irrelevant, in the long term you are only going up.

All big trades happen OTC, no need for exchanges which are all scams. Also it's impossible to ban all exchanges since there are tons and sitting on different jurisdictions.

Yes please let's revisit this post.

Indeed we will.

[Beerwizzard]

Altcoins give bitcoin competition and inflate the entire crypto space, thus pushing down the price of all cryptocurrencies, bitcoin most of all (since it is the current market leader). The more alt coins that get created, the more competition there is and the more spread out crypto investments become.

First of all altcoins are bringing the precious volume to the cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin would hardly had the current value if there was no Ethereum. ETH wouldn't have its price if there was no ICOs and so on. Sooner or later the market is gona be purged from the unneeded / scam altcoins and the situation will get better.

Bitcoin does not keep people's wealth safe. It puts it in extreme danger by exposing it to insane volatility, and potential inability to liquidate. If exchanges were banned, even if you had offline coins you could never liquidate them.

Cryptomarket is still very young right now and it can't be blamed for that, if you don't belive in the future of cryptos then this forum will probably be a bad place for you. Bitcoin price may change frequently but the only thing that will remain the same is the ownership of BTC. Once you have  your money on your bank account there is a chance that your acc will be blocked or withdraws will become limited due to any governmental restrictions. It is hard to believe but this still happens in the 21st sentury. While having a bitcoin you are the only one who have access to it.