Bitcoin Forum
October 23, 2017, 08:24:49 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Ripple starts to conquer the world from China  (Read 9737 times)
zwanzig20
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
September 07, 2013, 04:22:58 PM
 #101

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable
1508747089
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508747089

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508747089
Reply with quote  #2

1508747089
Report to moderator
1508747089
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508747089

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508747089
Reply with quote  #2

1508747089
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1508747089
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508747089

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508747089
Reply with quote  #2

1508747089
Report to moderator
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1862


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
September 07, 2013, 04:26:41 PM
 #102

DeathAndTaxes is "right on the money" here.

OpenCoin has tried to be "very clever" but they have been *anything but* open.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 04:27:14 PM
 #103

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.
yvv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330

Moirai Pre-ICO starts on 28.10.2017


View Profile WWW
September 07, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
 #104

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.

         ▀█████▀
▀▄         ███         ▄▀
  █▄       ███       ▄█
   ██      ███      ██
    ██     ███     ██
    ▀██▄▄  ███  ▄▄██▀
      ▀███████████▀
         ▀▀███▀▀
           ███
           ███
           ███
           ███
         ▄█████▄
.MOIRAI.
  ██████
██████
█████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███

██████
██████
  █████
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
        ███

    ▄█████
    ██████
    ███▀
    ███
███████
███████
    ███
    ███
    ███
    ███
    ███

█▄                ▄████▄
██▄             ███████▄▄▄
▀███▄▄      █████████▄
  ▀███████████████▀
▀████████████████
    ▀█████████████
  ▀█████████████
      ▀▀█████████
    ▄▄████████▀
██████████▀
    ▀▀▀▀▀

                              ▄▄██
                        ▄██████
                  ▄████▀▀███
            ▄█████▀  ▄████
      ▄██████▀  ▄██████
▄███████▀  ▄████████
  ▀▀▀▀███    █████████
            ██    █████████
            ▀█  ▄█▀    ▀████
              ██▀            ▀██
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


Gerald Davis


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
 #105

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.


Um that would assume each user only buy $1 worth of Ripple?  How about sell $100 to 100,000 users?  or $1,000 to 10,000 users? or $10,000 to 1,000 suckers?
yvv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330

Moirai Pre-ICO starts on 28.10.2017


View Profile WWW
September 07, 2013, 04:50:37 PM
 #106

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.


Um that would assume each user only buy $1 worth of Ripple?  How about sell $100 to 100,000 users?  or $1,000 to 10,000 users? or $10,000 to 1,000 suckers?

You need a fraction of  $ worth of XRP to run a ripple wallet. Suckers may buy whatever they want, even bitcoins.

         ▀█████▀
▀▄         ███         ▄▀
  █▄       ███       ▄█
   ██      ███      ██
    ██     ███     ██
    ▀██▄▄  ███  ▄▄██▀
      ▀███████████▀
         ▀▀███▀▀
           ███
           ███
           ███
           ███
         ▄█████▄
.MOIRAI.
  ██████
██████
█████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███

██████
██████
  █████
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
      ███
        ███

    ▄█████
    ██████
    ███▀
    ███
███████
███████
    ███
    ███
    ███
    ███
    ███

█▄                ▄████▄
██▄             ███████▄▄▄
▀███▄▄      █████████▄
  ▀███████████████▀
▀████████████████
    ▀█████████████
  ▀█████████████
      ▀▀█████████
    ▄▄████████▀
██████████▀
    ▀▀▀▀▀

                              ▄▄██
                        ▄██████
                  ▄████▀▀███
            ▄█████▀  ▄████
      ▄██████▀  ▄██████
▄███████▀  ▄████████
  ▀▀▀▀███    █████████
            ██    █████████
            ▀█  ▄█▀    ▀████
              ██▀            ▀██
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 05:23:37 PM
 #107

Suckers may buy whatever they want, even bitcoins.

Nice!

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
AmazonStuff
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 610



View Profile
September 07, 2013, 06:43:21 PM
 #108

Just imagine the future situation when all those AML verifications on BTC Exchange Websites become pay the btc taxes buddy (in my opinion  those will be pretty unfair big %) or you're going to jail because you are money launderer Cheesy By that time, every household will have a copy of open-sourced Rippled server, like all the people have the copy of Bitcoin client right now. THEN you will see, what I was talking about and why it's important to have exchange INSIDE p2p network.
Villem Anton
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 29


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 07:28:47 PM
 #109

A few points that people seems to be confused about.  To be clear from start, I consider Opencoin more or less a scam, not because the tech or design of the system, but because their questionable marketing, and dubious claims.

Opencoin is parasiting on Bitcoin fame. It is foolish to believe their Ripple will help Bitcoin in any way as the much quoted benefits are based on faulty conclusions,
- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.
- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Ripple is clearly a Bitcoin competitor. Saying it isn't does not change the fact that XRP is another currency, so by any definition it is a competitor. Saying it is not, is sneaky marketing crap.

Ripple is going to make profit by liquidating the XRP they "printed". In effect, if they are pre-printed or not does not matter as they are not in circulation, at this time. Very few XRP are released so Opencoin is in effect a central bank, regulating XRP. This is the whole point of XRP, printing money for Opencoin.

Ripple addresses are extremely easy to use to uncover users identity as you will not have many more than one. In fact, all your credit lines are associated to a single address so it is impossibly impractical to use many addresses to get more privacy. Also, David Schwartz is an old NSA guy. I would never trust anyone who worked there except for Mr. Snowden. Opencoin is funded by VCs and they would likely see their scheme get good traction help by NSA or DHS while bitcoins get outlawed. Opencoins Ripple would actually be The Perfect Surveillance Tool via the public ledger.

To conclude, XRP is superfluous for a ripple like scheme, you could as well use some recognized USD credits, or why not Bitcoin credits, as fees. Also, a public ledger is not ok when you have few-to-one address -> user. The database has to be distributed amoung the creditors and debtors. It should not be global. I really think the bitcoin community could design a better ripple scheme like this, using the some consensus validation which I think is a good design.
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
 #110

Ripple is and will be around, deal with it.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 07, 2013, 08:10:05 PM
 #111

I'm staying far, far away from it and encourage others as well.   

Have a bitstamp account?

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
herzmeister
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile WWW
September 07, 2013, 09:42:21 PM
 #112


Bitcoin works on Consensus too, in case people haven't noticed.

The real question is about how to find consensus. How do you measure one vote if you have no central authority to determine real life identities?

There are only three known methods known yet:

* CPU cycles vote (proof of work)
* Existing coins vote (proof of stake)
* A web of trust

Ripple basically uses a web of trust. Server nodes will be somewhat invite-only. Also I can imagine there's a reason why creating more than one account is discouraged (as they cost XRPs), and there effectively may be some proof of stake thrown in here and there which may be another reason why these XRPs exist.

https://localbitcoins.com/?ch=80k | BTC: 1LJvmd1iLi199eY7EVKtNQRW3LqZi8ZmmB
nameface
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 12:59:08 AM
 #113

- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.
Nobody is debating the necessity of liquidity in Ripple in order to perform currency exchange.
- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.
Again, I agree with you that liquidity is a huge issue. But if there is liquidity, I'm sure the balances for the most trusted gateways will be worth about the same. Ripple is trying to federate the existing banking system. Nobody today ever says: " It sucks that my Bank of America USD is worth less than my Citibank USD".
Ripple is clearly a Bitcoin competitor. Saying it isn't does not change the fact that XRP is another currency, so by any definition it is a competitor. Saying it is not, is sneaky marketing crap.
I totally disagree with your quip about the sneakiness. XRP is not Bitcoin, they are different. They will compete in some ways, and help each other in other ways.
Ripple is going to make profit by liquidating the XRP they "printed". In effect, if they are pre-printed or not does not matter as they are not in circulation, at this time. Very few XRP are released so Opencoin is in effect a central bank, regulating XRP. This is the whole point of XRP, printing money for Opencoin.
The point of XRP is to secure Ripple. OpenCoin created this technology, and they are now selling and giving it away. This does not make them a central bank. Anybody can use Ripple freely if it makes their life more convenient, and $1 worth of XRP will possibly pay a lifetime of transaction fees. I use Bitcoin all the time, and sometimes I trade Bitcoin balances, or move them around in Ripple because it is convenient.
Ripple addresses are extremely easy to use to uncover users identity as you will not have many more than one.
If you wanted maximum anonimity why would you use only one address? It functions very similarly to Bitcoin in this regard.
In fact, all your credit lines are associated to a single address so it is impossibly impractical to use many addresses to get more privacy.
It's true that it's more convenient to stick to a smaller number of addresses. But you can set trust lines for any number of accounts very easily, and you only need 1 trust line to trade Bitcoin or fiat in Ripple.
Also, David Schwartz is an old NSA guy. I would never trust anyone who worked there except for Mr. Snowden. Opencoin is funded by VCs and they would likely see their scheme get good traction help by NSA or DHS while bitcoins get outlawed. Opencoins Ripple would actually be The Perfect Surveillance Tool via the public ledger.
The fact that Katz worked with the NSA at some point in his career reinforces my confidence in him. He must really know what he's doing. Anyways, there are bunch of developers working on Ripple everyday. Anyone who doesn't trust them can just wait until it's open sourced.

To conclude, XRP is superfluous for a ripple like scheme, you could as well use some recognized USD credits, or why not Bitcoin credits, as fees. Also, a public ledger is not ok when you have few-to-one address -> user. The database has to be distributed amoung the creditors and debtors. It should not be global. I really think the bitcoin community could design a better ripple scheme like this, using the some consensus validation which I think is a good design.
The Bitcoin community did design Ripple, more or less. Maybe in the future a better similar system will exist? I don't doubt it, tech is always moving forward.
Zangelbert Bingledack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 03:52:36 AM
 #114

The most telling thing about OC Ripple is how everyone defending it makes such terribly flimsy, not-even-trying arguments. Without exception they give off the impression that they are merely to continue firing back even if all they have left to load in their cannon is wet noodles. "It's open source because it hasn't been released with a closed source license"? I can't even imagine a more tepid and transparent response.

OCRipple remains the most boneheadedly galling and brazen ploy since pirate@40.
AmazonStuff
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 610



View Profile
September 08, 2013, 08:42:05 AM
 #115

The most telling thing about OC Ripple is how everyone defending it makes such terribly flimsy, not-even-trying arguments. Without exception they give off the impression that they are merely to continue firing back even if all they have left to load in their cannon is wet noodles. "It's open source because it hasn't been released with a closed source license"? I can't even imagine a more tepid and transparent response.

OCRipple remains the most boneheadedly galling and brazen ploy since pirate@40.

It hasn't been released yet at all, nor under open-source, nor under closed-source licence, it's planned to be open-source when it's released.
Do you realize that your argument is that Ripple supporters are wrong?
elm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
 #116

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice Cheesy

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?
AmazonStuff
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 610



View Profile
September 08, 2013, 09:05:35 AM
 #117

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice Cheesy

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

Read this pages for Ripple merchants:
https://ripple.com/partners/
wiggi
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 373


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 09:19:15 AM
 #118

It is foolish to believe their Ripple will help Bitcoin in any way as the much quoted benefits are based on faulty conclusions,
- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.
- debt valuation depends on the debtor


If (in the far future) everyone will have an open-sourced Ripple server and XRP valuation has left bubble territory,
it's almost an automatic distributed trustless currency exchange and it will help Bitcoin. Almost because you still have to trust a gateway for
transactions.

ervalvola
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 669


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 09:49:17 AM
 #119

The other thing people miss: XRP = Market Making Currency...
If the network is ever scaled up...
The most favorable exchange price will always flow through XRP...

Trading XRP has huge risks involved (even more than trading BTC and these can be already quite volatile), I doubt that there will be big liquidity providers using XRP trades in the longer run. This is paired with an entity that is known to be willing to sell its stash (unlike Satoshi who is controlling a large part of all available BTC but has disappeared). If you want to play the big investor and market maker, you should definitely stay within BTC territory and not mess with XRP.

Sukrim, I alwais appreciate your posts but here I have to strongly disagree: XRPs are the fuel of the ripple network. Every gateway must have a strong market between his IOUs and XRP if it wants his IOUs to be liquid and exploit the potential of the federate protocol (managing a single market a gateway can link its currency to every other currency in the ripple network, instead of dealing one by one with thousands of gateways and different tokens)

This difference in usage between XRP and BTC should be pointed out. Bitcoin has an ideological push as "currency for the people" (regardless of the fact that we believe in it or not) that XRP hasn't, because it's not designed for that purpose.
Shouldn't be so hard to think at XRP as a "business" currency, useful for entrepreneurs, market makers and investors (the reckless ones Cheesy) while the Ripple Network is for the people, even and especially bitcoiners.

And this perspective, in my point of view, could solve many of the misunderstandings we see here at bitcointalk.

elm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
September 08, 2013, 10:53:23 AM
 #120

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice Cheesy

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

Read this pages for Ripple merchants:
https://ripple.com/partners/

thanks I have read it. ok sounds good but is there some one who has already used it and can give some feedback?

cheers
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!