Ripple starts to conquer the world from China

[AmazonStuff]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjAzMzE3Nzg0.html

I think it's a good strategy, China is a huge potential market for XRP. Currently, it's pretty complicated for Chinese people who live abroad to send money to their relative's in China and Ripple seems to be the right tool for that job.

[1715694168]

1715694168

[1715694168]

1715694168

[1715694168]

1715694168

[1715694168]

1715694168

[Lauda]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

[Nigeria Prince]

Ripple is by far the best currency.

[AmazonStuff]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

[Lauda]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

meh, my country is never gonna allow something like ripple.
GL in other ones tho  

[miffman]

I don't like ripple just because it's closed source and 'premined' in a sense.

[digit]

r3fXia41tSrGawBEQLaCRa49n6YwjWXV2b

okay still waiting for some giveaways

[AmazonStuff]

I don't know, OpenCoin is working fast to make Ripple open-source, it's currently their first priority.

According to https://ripplecharts.com/markets RippleChina trade volume in the last 24h is 392,345,613.01 XRP, OpenCoin representatives are talking that their "federation protocol" is capable to very rapidly enable millions of people to make Ripple payments.

[Fablio2]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

Ripple isn't an alt-coin. Ripple is only a payment system (like paypal and others), but based on peer-to-peer system.

[AmazonStuff]

meh, my country is never gonna allow something like ripple, I've made this sure with my dad. 
GL in other ones tho 

Actually, there are already two official Chinese gateways:
1. RippleCN
2. RippleChina

http://www.xrpga.org/gateways.html

[AmazonStuff]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

Ripple isn't an alt-coin. Ripple is only a payment system (like paypal and others), but based on peer-to-peer system.

Ripple IS alt-coin (XRP) + payment system (Ripple network)

[Lauda]

I don't like ripple just because it's closed source and 'premined' in a sense.

Those 2 are the main problems with it.

[AmazonStuff]

I don't like ripple just because it's closed source and 'premined' in a sense.

Those 2 are the main problems with it.

I don't have a problem with it, they are serious and transparent company, it's clear who they are:
https://opencoin.com/

OpenCoin is backed by investors like Google Ventures, they are working hard on open-sourcing Ripple and their team is constantly growing and communicating on their forum:
https://ripple.com/forum/

Also, I haven't seen in the past any kind of pre-mined coins misuse by OpenCoin, they release XRP via giveaways and donations.

For me, Ripple is a future internet financial eco-system, if it succeed it will probably overgrow bitcoin, but I don't see them as a competitors, I see them more like complementary tools.

[DeathAndTaxes]

They aren't "working hard" at open sourcing it.   The code exists, you release it with open source license .... TADA it is open source.

Ripple is simply bait and switch.  Ripple has no good mechanism to handle fradulent servers so they won't open source it.  Of course saying that means it is a DOA so they will let it linger on with the bait of open source.   It has been years and it is no closer to being open source then when initially promised.  In a couple more years once it has enough marketshare it will morph to "an open network" which is marketing for closed source but anyone can obtain a license to run a server.   OpenCoin will issue and revoke licenses of peers to ensure that only compliant ones exist.

[AmazonStuff]

They aren't "working hard" at open sourcing it.   The code exists, you release it with open source license .... TADA it is open source.

Ripple is simply bait and switch.  Ripple has no good mechanism to handle fradulent servers so they won't open source it.  Of course saying that means it is a DOA so they will let it linger on with the bait of open source.   It has been years and it is no closer to being open source then when initially promised.  In a couple more years once it has enough marketshare it will morph to "an open network" which is marketing for closed source but anyone can obtain a license to run a server.   OpenCoin will issue and revoke licenses of peers to ensure that only compliant ones exist.

Well, who can determine are they working hard or not?

What I know for sure is that OpenCoin recently hired Nikolaos D. Bougalis (Senior Software Engineer), his full-time job is open-sourcing Ripple, read about it here:
https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3557

[DeathAndTaxes]

Once again the CODE ALREADY EXISTS.  They don't need to "work hard" to release it as open source.  They just do it. They could do it in all of 5 minutes if they wanted to.  Over a year later and they haven't .... that means they don't WANT to release the source code.

Ripple will never be open source.   It is just the bait to build the network.  Once it is large enough there is little reason to open source it.  Does a lack of open source hurt PayPal?  OpenCoin's entire business model has been to own all the coins, give away some, and sell of the rest in the future.  If Ripple is open source it can be cloned and the cloned version can have the "premine" removed.

[Lauda]

Once again the CODE ALREADY EXISTS.  They don't need to "work hard" to release it as open source.  They just do it. They could do it in all of 5 minutes if they wanted to.  Over a year later and they haven't .... that means they don't WANT to release the source code.

Ripple will never be open source.   It is just the bait to build the network.  Once it is large enough there is little reason to open source it.  Does a lack of open source hurt PayPal?

This.
OP you're an obvious Ripple supporter. Most likely Ripple will never be open source. It takes a few minutes to make your code open source, not a few years.

[AmazonStuff]

Once again the CODE ALREADY EXISTS.  They don't need to "work hard" to release it as open source.  They just do it. They could do it in all of 5 minutes if they wanted to.  Over a year later and they haven't .... that means they don't WANT to release the source code.

Ripple will never be open source.   It is just the bait to build the network.  Once it is large enough there is little reason to open source it.  Does a lack of open source hurt PayPal?

This.
OP you're an obvious Ripple supporter. Most likely Ripple will never be open source. It takes a few minutes to make your code open source, not a few years.

Yes, I'm a Ripple supporter, why not?
I have invested a lot in btc, I also invested in Ripple. I spend a lot of time doing research about Ripple and when I was sure that it's safe, I invested in it.

First, I shared a wide spread opinion that it's a fraud, but after I did some more research, I found that it's a safe and a good investment. My money is in Ripple for about 5 months and they didn't scammed me. I don't want to promote Ripple, it's OpenCoin's business, but I think that Bitcoin community is unfair about Ripple.

There is a reason why Ripple code is not open-sourced yet, they want to make code more secure, before they go with it in public. Part of the code is publicly available, part is not. For me as a Ripple investor, it would be a disaster if they release the code to the public, before it's a double-checked and with security holes, so I don't have a problem with Ripple not being open-source at this moment, I have patience, it's still beta.

[Hazard]

Centralized, premined, and closed source. Shifts around debt rather than actual value. It would be completely dead if it wasn't leeching off bitcoin, like some sort of parasite.

Shame on you for supporting such shit.

[AmazonStuff]

Centralized, premined, and closed source. Shifts around debt rather than actual value. It would be completely dead if it wasn't leeching off bitcoin, like some sort of parasite.

Shame on you for supporting such shit.

I don't have nothing to be shamed about. It's my decision and my investment, it's my business where I will invest or not to invest. As much as you have the right to have your own opinion, I have the right to have my own opinion. It's best for everyone that both sentiments are heard.

[Stephen Gornick]

Ripple will never be open source.   It is just the bait to build the network.  Once it is large enough there is little reason to open source it.

Would the arrival of the day men with guns show up to confiscate hardware and shut it down increase the likelihood they release as open source?

Today Ripple is being used as the successor [Edit: a successor] to the "redeemable code" -- a debt-based voucher.  Releasing as open source is the only way for that network to continue [Edit: and existing XRPs held by anyone to continue to have value] after such an event.

[AmazonStuff]

Ripple will never be open source.   It is just the bait to build the network.  Once it is large enough there is little reason to open source it.

Would the arrival of the day men with guns show up to confiscate hardware and shut it down increase the likelihood they release as open source?

Today Ripple is being used as the successor to the "redeemable code" -- a debt-based voucher.  Releasing as open source is the only way for that network to continue after such an event.

With all due respect Mr.Gornick, but that is just one of the Ripple features. For me Ripple is not a Bitcoin competitor, so:
Ripple != Bitcoin

it's more like:
Ripple = Bitcoin + MtGox (or Bitstamp, BTC-e....etc.)

Is MtGox centralized? Is MtGox open-source?

Who many of Bitcoin traders are using a Bitcoin in de-centralized fashion, for example without exchange websites? I think maybe up to 5%...

[aggster]

i logged into my ripple account the other only to find that all bu6t 50 of my ripples had been transferred to another address, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it, not good.
never had this problem with bitcoins, i wont be using ripple again

[AmazonStuff]

i logged into my ripple account the other only to find that all bu6t 50 of my ripples had been transferred to another address, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it, not good.
never had this problem with bitcoins, i wont be using ripple again

Sorry to hear that, next time use long, unique and complicated password with numbers, symbols etc... 

[QuantPlus]

Centralized, premined, and closed source. Shifts around debt rather than actual value. It would be completely dead if it wasn't leeching off bitcoin, like some sort of parasite.

Shame on you for supporting such shit.

I don't have nothing to be shamed about. It's my decision and my investment, it's my business where I will invest or not to invest. As much as you have the right to have your own opinion, I have the right to have my own opinion. It's best for everyone that both sentiments are heard.

You are being lied to by dozens of Ripple Stooges.

Now you have become a Ripple Dupe. Congratulations.

XRP trading volume is about 10% of what it was 2-3 months ago...
The network is a Ghost Town.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleXRP#rg60zigDailyztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

[JonHolmquist]

They aren't "working hard" at open sourcing it.   The code exists, you release it with open source license .... TADA it is open source.

Ripple is simply bait and switch.  Ripple has no good mechanism to handle fradulent servers so they won't open source it.  Of course saying that means it is a DOA so they will let it linger on with the bait of open source.   It has been years and it is no closer to being open source then when initially promised.  In a couple more years once it has enough marketshare it will morph to "an open network" which is marketing for closed source but anyone can obtain a license to run a server.   OpenCoin will issue and revoke licenses of peers to ensure that only compliant ones exist.

I guess the term is a little misleading.

The goal here it open source it. The path to getting it open sourced requires the addition of several not coded features.

Things like anti-ddos features, peer discovery improvements, and limiting validation broadcasts.

These features are core requirements before the server code is open sourced. If we don't take the time to polish these features, the network could open itself up to attacks.

[AmazonStuff]

Centralized, premined, and closed source. Shifts around debt rather than actual value. It would be completely dead if it wasn't leeching off bitcoin, like some sort of parasite.

Shame on you for supporting such shit.

I don't have nothing to be shamed about. It's my decision and my investment, it's my business where I will invest or not to invest. As much as you have the right to have your own opinion, I have the right to have my own opinion. It's best for everyone that both sentiments are heard.

You are being lied to by dozens of Ripple Stooges.

Now you have become a Ripple Dupe. Congratulations.

XRP trading volume is about 10% of what it was 2-3 months ago...
The network is a Ghost Town.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleXRP#rg60zigDailyztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

There is a problem with bitcoincharts reporting ripple price and volume, sometimes chart is stucked, so take that graphs with a grain of salt.
http://xrp.webr3.org/btc-xrp graphs are real-time, but sometimes they get stucked too...

[KonstantinosM]

I decided to make a wallet for ripple, then I found out that it's closed source and controlled by a for profit corporation.

I don't think we can trust a single entity to give away every single coin in a system.

Ripple is shit. I'm mining New Bitcoin now, What we really need is an alt like New Bitcoin only about 64 times faster. Something like bitcoin only 256 times the blocks (still halving every 4 years) Transactions would confirm in 14-15 seconds and ripple would have no market.


Maybe ripple should be considered a scam. The whole system is dangerous and may collapse. I'm not willing to take such risks.

[mymenace]

I decided to make a wallet for ripple, then I found out that it's closed source and controlled by a for profit corporation.

I don't think we can trust a single entity to give away every single coin in a system.

Ripple is shit. I'm mining New Bitcoin now, What we really need is an alt like New Bitcoin only about 64 times faster. Something like bitcoin only 256 times the blocks (still halving every 4 years) Transactions would confirm in 14-15 seconds and ripple would have no market.


Maybe ripple should be considered a scam. The whole system is dangerous and may collapse. I'm not willing to take such risks.

Sounds like Fastcoin, not sure if it meets all of what you stated but it is fast.

[KonstantinosM]

I decided to make a wallet for ripple, then I found out that it's closed source and controlled by a for profit corporation.

I don't think we can trust a single entity to give away every single coin in a system.

Ripple is shit. I'm mining New Bitcoin now, What we really need is an alt like New Bitcoin only about 64 times faster. Something like bitcoin only 256 times the blocks (still halving every 4 years) Transactions would confirm in 14-15 seconds and ripple would have no market.


Maybe ripple should be considered a scam. The whole system is dangerous and may collapse. I'm not willing to take such risks.

Sounds like Fastcoin, not sure if it meets all of what you stated but it is fast.

Thanks, I'll look it up.

[Lauda]

Fastcoin is bad and dying. Well theoretically this could be done if block times were reduced and block reward adjusted to have the same effects, but due to the amount of people using bitcoin, I don't know how it would affect it on a global scale. Even though it might be beneficial, but this is why it's not being done.
I would never trust something closed source.

[AmazonStuff]

I decided to make a wallet for ripple, then I found out that it's closed source and controlled by a for profit corporation.

I don't think we can trust a single entity to give away every single coin in a system.

Ripple is shit. I'm mining New Bitcoin now, What we really need is an alt like New Bitcoin only about 64 times faster. Something like bitcoin only 256 times the blocks (still halving every 4 years) Transactions would confirm in 14-15 seconds and ripple would have no market.


Maybe ripple should be considered a scam. The whole system is dangerous and may collapse. I'm not willing to take such risks.

Ripple is not a scam, find one single person who got scammed by OpenCoin. It's already explained in this thread about Ripple not being open-source and pre-mined, so it would be nice to hear some arguments from both sides in order to make this discussion more constructive and not to repeat ourselves.

[coinage]

i logged into my ripple account the other only to find that all [but] 50 of my ripples had been transferred to another address, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it, not good.
never had this problem with bitcoins, i wont be using ripple again

Of course, many have had losses just like that with all manner of e-wallets, including those for Bitcoin, when they used compromised computers/websites or inadequate security procedures.

So was your password short or nonrandom, as AmazonStuff mentioned, and what operating system/web browser setup were you using?  (Was it dedicated to financial tasks or also used for possibly risky web access?)

Your details might help others.  Maybe there's a flaw in the Ripple system, if you have any evidence of that.  More likely this was a browser/password issue which might threaten your Bitcoin holdings too.

The fact you can't do anything about the loss shows Ripple transactions are (so far) pretty irreversible -- one of the things many of us love about Bitcoin.

However, Ripple is at risk of losing that or any other feature unless and until OpenCoin lets multiple international entities co-manage the ledger.  They say that at that point, they would lose control of changes to the network (making improvements more difficult), and would have to vote on any changes with all ledger managers.


[Followup ~2 weeks later:  In another thread aggster said a "secure" password was used, but perhaps the computer is compromised with a keylogger.  For instance, from the posting history, it seems aggster has run literally dozens of altcoins.  Perhaps adequate precautions weren't taken when installing them.]

[NWO]

It will be hard for Ripple to gain traction in the BTC community as most of the people who were drawn here are Libertarians. 

Its just not the target audience. OC should see this and give up, look to China, look to the world.

[mintedstone]

Centralized, premined, and closed source. Shifts around debt rather than actual value. It would be completely dead if it wasn't leeching off bitcoin, like some sort of parasite.

Shame on you for supporting such shit.

I agree with you Hazard

[QuantPlus]

i logged into my ripple account the other only to find that all bu6t 50 of my ripples had been transferred to another address, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it, not good.
never had this problem with bitcoins, i wont be using ripple again

There have been many "thefts" from Ripple accounts.

You will be told to open a Github "trouble ticket"...
Then, in the end, you will always be told you had a "weak password"...
And you will have absolutely no recourse.

Larger amounts of money are not safe on the Ripple network.

[just_me]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Who thought of the name 'ripple'?? I don't think this is a good name at all.

The cost of buying ripples is too high, considering how many are going to be in circulation. I see no reason to buy at such high prices.

[AmazonStuff]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Who thought of the name 'ripple'?? I don't think this is a good name at all.
The cost of buying ripples is too high, considering how many are going to be in circulation. I see no reason to buy at such high prices.

100 billion XRP were created, it's estimated that 1.5 billion XRP are currently in circulation.

[viboracecata]

Ripple need to open its source and prove it's fair.

[AmazonStuff]

Ripple need to open its source and prove it's fair.

My logic is that Ripple will be open-source when it's done, it's still in beta, but when it's done and open-source, it will gain some popularity, small investments will move the price rapidly, so I would be late for the status of early-adopter. I made my decision based on that, for me it's better to be a early adopter then to be late adopter. If you think it's better to wait it to become a open-source, then stick to your decision, we are all grown-up individuals and we are responsible for our decisions, future will prove who made better one's.

[markm]

Ripple is shit. I'm mining New Bitcoin now, What we really need is an alt like New Bitcoin only about 64 times faster. Something like bitcoin only 256 times the blocks (still halving every 4 years) Transactions would confirm in 14-15 seconds and ripple would have no market.

Maybe GeistGeld?

It is merged mined alongside bitcoin, namecoin, devcoin, groupcoin, ixcoin, i0coin and coiledcoin, and has fast blocks, 15 seconds i think it is or thereabouts.

If people still do want fast block time, GeistGeld is the way to get that without dividing up your hash rate between chains, as merged mining lets your same hashing power mine them all at once. So it can be given quite some difficulty quite fast simply by adding it into the merges of a few large pools.

Oh but hmm how important is the halving every four years to you? GeistGeld just keeps mining coins forever. The percentage of total coins so far it thus mints each year goes down all the time that way of course so maybe the minting details aren't that big a deal?

-MarkM-

[QuantPlus]

Ripple need to open its source and prove it's fair.

My logic is that Ripple will be open-source when it's done, it's still in beta, but when it's done and open-source, it will gain some popularity, small investments will move the price rapidly, so I would be late for the status of early-adopter. I made my decision based on that, for me it's better to be a early adopter then to be late adopter. If you think it's better to wait it to become a open-source, then stick to your decision, we are all grown-up individuals and we are responsible for our decisions, future will prove who made better one's.

Your "logic" is irrelevant since you have no engineering or financial industry expertise.

Ripple is waaaaay too complex... to be understood and evaluated by random people.

[AmazonStuff]

Ripple need to open its source and prove it's fair.

My logic is that Ripple will be open-source when it's done, it's still in beta, but when it's done and open-source, it will gain some popularity, small investments will move the price rapidly, so I would be late for the status of early-adopter. I made my decision based on that, for me it's better to be a early adopter then to be late adopter. If you think it's better to wait it to become a open-source, then stick to your decision, we are all grown-up individuals and we are responsible for our decisions, future will prove who made better one's.

Your "logic" is irrelevant since you have no engineering or financial industry expertise.

Ripple is waaaaay too complex... to be understood and evaluated by random people.

Well I said "my" logic, it's relevant to me, if you don't like it you can ignore it.

Please, if you know something about Ripple, talk about that, let's talk in arguments, it's really a time wasting activity to analyze who I am, when you don't know nothing about me...

Ripple is not a space technology, it's not necessary to have a expertise or engineering degree (although I have a master degree in engineering) to understand how it works, I'm not going to build Ripple from scratch, I'm going to use it. I've been using Ripple for a 5 months and nothing scary happened, at least I was brave enough to try something new and time will tell was that a good move or not.

[nameface]

Ripple is waaaaay too complex... to be understood and evaluated by random people.

Despite its complexity, I think Ripple has a very bright future. My favorite project built on Ripple so far just launched this week, http://peercover.com/. It's a platform that allows anybody to become their own insurance company.

[TheSwede75]

Ripple will be remembered as the first really large scale scam in the crypto economy.

[erk]

Ripple can have China, the rest of the world can have real coins.

PoW > PoS > PoN (proof of nothing)

[AmazonStuff]

Ripple will be remembered as the first really large scale scam in the crypto economy.

How could it be a scam?  It's the p2p network, it's not node dependent. If btc is a p2p money, ripple is multiple p2p money PLUS exchange PLUS payment system, it has a bunch of features, it will be bulletproof, next step in crypto economy. You are more concerned with who owns majority of ripples, we'll here they are: www.opencoin.com, you can see their faces. Do you know who owns majority of bitcoins? Who is Pirate? Who are the owners of most bitcoin businesses?

[NWO]

Ripple is waaaaay too complex... to be understood and evaluated by random people.

Despite its complexity, I think Ripple has a very bright future. My favorite project built on Ripple so far just launched this week, http://peercover.com/. It's a platform that allows anybody to become their own insurance company.

Cool story bro!

[Sukrim]

Ripple will be remembered as the first really large scale scam in the crypto economy.

bigger than mtgox or pirateat40? I doubt that...

Anyways, I find some arguments here strange considering that a huge percentage of bitcoin usage is IOU transactions on closed source platforms (the daily volumes of trades on exchanges are definitely the largest part of that, plus things like inputs.io).
Ripple server code has DoS problems still and mining pools in bitcoin have been DDoSed for less. With that general negativity around I can understand why they want to get up to speed before going public.

Also I'm not too sure what people think open sourcing right away would really change except for people investing in xrp (something I wouldn't recommend). Ripple is based on having many non colluding validators. To trust that these dont collude, one probably needs more information than a lot of people here would be willing to give - and even then running a validator has to be done for free.
You think bitcoin uses a lot of resources? Rippled can easily top that...

Still I'm all for having an open rippled, though I guess then the criticism still won't stop because people here seem to generally not be aware that without using IOUs, one cannot trade - especially bitcoins.

[yvv]

It is funny to watch how bitcoin fanatics blame ripple for being closed source and centralized and continue using MtGox with BTC-e. Ripple is more decentralized than any bitcoin exchange, potheads. And instead of forking dozen of shitcoins per week to resolve bitcoin flaws, you can use any existing currency in ripple "bitcoin style", or even issue your own currency if you have something to back it.

[ronimacarroni]

It is funny to watch how bitcoin fanatics blame ripple for being closed source and centralized and continue using MtGox with BTC-e. Ripple is more decentralized than any bitcoin exchange, potheads. And instead of forking dozen of shitcoins per week to resolve bitcoin flaws, you can use any existing currency in ripple "bitcoin style", or even issue your own currency if you have something to back it.

Someone should make a bitcoin napster
Just download the client, tranfer money to it and bid away
Now that would be cool 

[AmazonStuff]

OK, here's the old BitcoinTalk "Ripple GiveAway" thread  where all of these scam accusations started:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145506.0

On the first page there are four posts which were completely different and then got edited with some red font text saying that Ripple is a scam.

Well, many people don't know that those users were actually paid to do that, someone offered them $550 to do that:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212730.0

Think twice why would someone pay $550 to someone, just to edit his post and spread negative sentiment about Ripple?
It's probably because he wants to buy as much Ripple's as possible, before XRP skyrockets to the sky.

There are currently 11656475BTC in circulation with the price of 1BTC = 134,6$
On the other hand, currently there are 1,5 billion XRP in circulation with the price of 1XRP = 0.0056$

Do the math is it profitable for someone to spread false accusation about Ripple and buy a large stash of XRP at that price...

[dupee419]

wtf is the point in open sourcing it? it's fully premined. if they're trying to make it more secure, it wasn't ready to be released in the first place, that is a HUGE design flaw.

Secondly, it's an IOU system not a coin.

Thirdly, there is no other place that takes XRP for anything except for ripple.
I can dump my bitcoins and altcoins at any of a half a dozen different sites, I’m not pinned down mtgox.

[yvv]

Thirdly, there is no other place that takes XRP for anything except for ripple.

XRP are not supposed to be used as money, although they are used some times. It is a special token to pay for using a wallet. In ripple, you pay with whatever money you have to anybody who has a ripple wallet, and he receives whatever money he wants.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thirdly, there is no other place that takes XRP for anything except for ripple.

XRP are not supposed to be used as money, although they are used some times. It is a special token to pay for using a wallet. In ripple, you pay with whatever money you have to anybody who has a ripple wallet, and he receives whatever money he wants.

Yeah you don't really believe that do you.  Everything else is an IOU and has counterparty risk.  If/when there are a billion of XRP in millions of users hands, why would you want to be paid in the less secure, less liquid IOUs when it is almost a guarantee the person paying you has XRPs?

Another way to look at it is OpenCoin ONLY source of revenue is selling XRPs?  Which is more profitable a viable alternative currency or a negligible value token used as stamps?

Bait and switch.  Ripple is just taking a page from Microsoft's playbook.  Embrance, extend, extinguish.

[yvv]

Yeah you don't really believe that do you.  Everything else is an IOU and has counterparty risk.  If/when there are a billion of XRP in millions of users hands.  Why would you want to be paid in the less secure, less liquid IOUs when it is almost a guarantee the person you are doing business with has XRP?

If you want to accept XRP, no problem with that. You need to buy and sell XRP for fiat or other assets anyway, and this process involves issuing IOUs. Instead, you can accept IOUs of real world money, and if ripple finds that the easiest way to exchange between IOUs which payer has and IOUs which you accept is though XRP, it will do this automatically. IOUs are as secure as any other bonds.

[QuantPlus]

Thirdly, there is no other place that takes XRP for anything except for ripple.

XRP are not supposed to be used as money, although they are used some times. It is a special token to pay for using a wallet. In ripple, you pay with whatever money you have to anybody who has a ripple wallet, and he receives whatever money he wants.

Yeah you don't really believe that do you.  Everything else is an IOU and has counterparty risk.  If/when there are a billion of XRP in millions of users hands, why would you want to be paid in the less secure, less liquid IOUs when it is almost a guarantee the person paying you has XRPs?

Another way to look at it is OpenCoin ONLY source of revenue is selling XRPs?  Which is more profitable a viable alternative currency or a negligible value token used as stamps?

Bait and switch.  Ripple is just taking a page from Microsoft's playbook.  Embrance, extend, extinguish.

Pretty much.

Everything on the Ripple network is a Debt (usually from dodgy foreign issuers)... XRP is the only Asset.

The other thing people miss: XRP = Market Making Currency...
If the network is ever scaled up...
The most favorable exchange price will always flow through XRP...
So only traders with lots of XRP will collect the spreads and fees...
I'm sure Jed spent 100s of hours game planning XRP on a billion $$$ network.

Problem is they totally fucked up the launch.

Also, the people who take out Western Union with a disruptive network...
Will be people who go to India and Mexico and China...
And build offices and Dev Teams on the ground in the Third World.

NOT candy asses who attend Panels in Silicon Valley...
And fly 1st class between SF and NYC.

[Sukrim]

This topic is about Ripple getting traction in China by the way, and the CNY markets in Ripple look quite good too.

Everything in the Bitcoin ecosystem is debt from dodgy issuers too and the only asset is BTC - with the exception that this debt isn't even liquid (see the BTCUSD IOU price at MtGox at the moment for example).

Trading XRP has huge risks involved (even more than trading BTC and these can be already quite volatile), I doubt that there will be big liquidity providers using XRP trades in the longer run. This is paired with an entity that is known to be willing to sell its stash (unlike Satoshi who is controlling a large part of all available BTC but has disappeared). If you want to play the big investor and market maker, you should definitely stay within BTC territory and not mess with XRP.

The nice thing is that BTC are easily redeemable (as transactions there are quite final), so interfacing with Ripple is quite easy for Bitcoiners. I don't really get why people try so hard to merge these communities, Ripple's success definitely won't come by embracing a large part of the Bitcoin ecosystem which is struggling on its own. It is however quite amusing to which lengths some "hardcore Bitcoiners" go to make sure they definitely despise Ripple - and then again trade happily on MtGox, deposit their coins at Bitfunder or just-dice or inputs.io and mourn that there is no distributed exchange or no real way to quickly and cheaply transfer money between exchanges for arbitrage.

Already the classification as "alternate cryptocurrency" is wrong for this thread, as it is about CNY IOUs on the three main chinese gateways - it should be either in Off-Topic or (if they also issue BTC IOUs) maybe trading discussion or so.

[AmazonStuff]

Thirdly, there is no other place that takes XRP for anything except for ripple.

With the latest feature called "Bitcoin Bridge" Ripple wallet is essentially Bitcoin Online Wallet, you can make a payment to any Bitcoin address.

[X68N]

Ripple is very "inovative" - compared to the standart 419 nigeria scam 

[Stephen Gornick]

Incidentally, there's going to be a Ripple Dev Con following the large emerging payments conference Money2020 (October 6-10, 2013), in Vegas.  The Dev Con is October 10th.
 - https://ripple.com/blog/win-free-tickets-to-the-exclusive-money2020-ripple-developer-conference-and-50000-xrp/

[nameface]

the people who take out Western Union with a disruptive network...
Will be people who go to India and Mexico and China...
And build offices and Dev Teams on the ground in the Third World.

NOT candy asses who attend Panels in Silicon Valley...
And fly 1st class between SF and NYC.

I dig your sentiment and I agree with you. But these "people who take out..." will probably use Ripple, Bitcoin, and whatever other tools are at their disposal. I'm picturing a new global Hawala-like system building out of the old Hawala system and the Western financial system. There will be no single system (Bitcoin, Ripple, etc.), or single service (Western Union), so less limitations and points of failure.

The point is that the work OpenCoin is doing is very important. There are gateways in China, USA, Europe, Canada, Sweden, and soon England. If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

[DeathAndTaxes]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.   

[nameface]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.   

Incorrect. Ripple runs on ~100 servers now.

[DeathAndTaxes]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.  

Incorrect. Ripple runs on ~100 servers now.

Provide a link to the download.  Saying there are 100 servers is meaningless.   Google's search engine runs on thousands of servers.  It makes about as much sense to say "if the conduct of Google, Inc is a problem at least the world will have their [Google, Inc] technology".  No they won't if access is restricted.

Do I really need to clarify with "OpenCoin and approved lackeys"?

[QuantPlus]

the people who take out Western Union with a disruptive network...
Will be people who go to India and Mexico and China...
And build offices and Dev Teams on the ground in the Third World.

NOT candy asses who attend Panels in Silicon Valley...
And fly 1st class between SF and NYC.

I dig your sentiment and I agree with you. But these "people who take out..." will probably use Ripple, Bitcoin, and whatever other tools are at their disposal. I'm picturing a new global Hawala-like system building out of the old Hawala system and the Western financial system. There will be no single system (Bitcoin, Ripple, etc.), or single service (Western Union), so less limitations and points of failure.

The point is that the work OpenCoin is doing is very important. There are gateways in China, USA, Europe, Canada, Sweden, and soon England. If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

I spent about 2 months studying Ripple...
And made about 500-1000 trades XRP/BTC and XRP/USD in May-June...
I was doing about 1% of XRP volume as a Market Maker...
(Which I do for a living on the NYSE since the 90s).

I was left very unimpressed by Ripple and OpenCoin...
All these "gateways" are Mickey Mouse 1-2 person operations...
With the single exception of Bitstamp which is 100% dependent on the Croation banking system...
So the only source of USD on the Ripple is one Croatian bank with a UK branch.

It gets worse...
Because many of these "gateway" are small legacy Ripple Classic operations...
Who are philosophically at odds with everything corporate OpenCoin stands for...
They are Trojan Horses waiting for the servers to be Open Sourced so they can fork away.

This is the whole community LETS sub-culture...
IMO, LETS is a classic example of a "solution in search of a problem"...
It's never caught on in modern urban culture... and never will.

Both the Ripple network and Ripple Forum are Ghost Towns...
A good measure of the health of the network is XRP trading volume...
Which is down 70-80% since I was trading in May...
Those 25,000 accounts they brag about are dormant...
Virtually all Ripple activity is OC, Devs, and a few dozen traders.

The company I was thinking of that, unlike OpenCoin...
IS ACTUALLY GOING TO THE THIRD WORLD to take on WU...
Is this article below... while I see that OC is hosting yet another swanky conference.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/20/buttercoin/
In order to take on WU

[nameface]

http://Ripple.com has a new look and new features. You can see the ledgers and trading volume and transactions now.

It gets worse...
Because many of these "gateway" are small legacy Ripple Classic operations...
Who are philosophically at odds with everything corporate OpenCoin stands for...
They are Trojan Horses waiting for the servers to be Open Sourced so they can fork away.

This isn't true. I think only http://RippleUnion.com was built by Ripple Classic users, and I know them personally, they are not planning to "fork away"
Also, this idea of forking the network is a bit of a joke. Nobody will use a payment network that amounts to "Zipple - the FAKE Ripple".

IMO, LETS is a classic example of a "solution in search of a problem"...

At least these features are baked in to Ripple. They could end up being more useful in the future.

The company I was thinking of that, unlike OpenCoin...
IS ACTUALLY GOING TO THE THIRD WORLD to take on WU...
Is this article below... while I see that OC is hosting yet another swanky conference.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/20/buttercoin/
In order to take on WU

Very very cool. Why wouldn't they use Ripple in some instances if it was cheaper or easier?

OpenCoin's attendance at conferences like http://Money2020.com is crucial and will be good for the future of the entire virtual currency industry. The fact that this conference is being held in a nice venue in Las Vegas and not a bombed-out apartment block in Mogadishu doesn't take anything away from Ripple.

[AmazonStuff]

It's always hard to accept the change and Ripple is a change and it's change to better, next step in the crypto-currency revolution.
First time, I saw a bitcoin, I said this is not a solution for my problem, this has no future... Boy, I was wrong So, I can understand why many people have doubts about Ripple.

Main thing that makes Bitcoin vulnerable are exchange websites. One, could say, so what... Bitcoin can work without exchanges, but that is wrong, they are needed in order for Bitcoin to be successful, it would be really hard to determine btc value without them, so btc would probably lose clients and it's value really fast.

What is the point of having P2P crypto-currency, when you don't have a P2P exchange? Then, it's not P2P and when it's not P2P, it's not de-centralized.
Ripple comes to BTC as it's best friend and solves BTC main problem by integrating exchanges into P2P network.
Bitcoin and Ripple are completely complementary tools, they are not confronted at all.

P2P is the essence...

P2P content ---> P2P money ---> P2P money + every possible currency + exchanges --->

Thank you Satoshi, you are a genius

[yvv]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.   

Both statements are false.

[yvv]

Provide a link to the download.  

There is no link to download, neither sources nor binaries. The server was not released to public yet. Only limited number of testers (~100) have currently access to rippled. It will be released to public when it will be stable enough. It is a normal way of software development.

[DeathAndTaxes]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.  

Both statements are false.

Yet you admit in the next post that the transaction server IS closed source and only available to approved lackeys of OpenCoin.  Replaced "owned" with "approved".  Nobody runs the closed source binaries with OpenCoins experess permission.  Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

Closed source and absolute central control of the network.   Ripple is PayPal 2.0.

[yvv]

Yet you admit in the next post that the transaction server IS closed source and only available to approved lackeys of OpenCoin. Replaced "owned" with "approved".  Nobody runs the closed source binaries with OpenCoins experess permission.  Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason.

Closed source and absolute central control of the network.   Ripple is PayPal 2.0.

It is not closed sourced, it is not released yet. Neither sources no binaries are available to public. Currently, it is a very unstable piece of software which is not ready for release. When it will be released, no permission will be necessary to use it. Ripple has nothing in common with PayPal. Ripple aims to be a distributed currency exchange.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Yet you admit in the next post that the transaction server IS closed source and only available to approved lackeys of OpenCoin. Replaced "owned" with "approved".  Nobody runs the closed source binaries with OpenCoins experess permission.  Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason.

Closed source and absolute central control of the network.   Ripple is PayPal 2.0.

It is not closed sourced, it is not released yet. Neither sources no binaries are available to public. Currently, it is a very unstable piece of software which is not ready for release. When it will be released, no permission will be necessary to use it. Ripple has nothing in common with PayPal. Ripple aims to be a distributed currency exchange.

IT IS CLOSED SOURCE.  That is the DEFINITION of closed source.  It is a centrally controlled proprietary network.  The fact that the company has made some vague promises to release the code to the public at some unknown future date doesn't make it open source. If Microsoft promised they would make the source code of some future version of Windows on some future unnamed date would that make Windows "open source" today?  Of course not.  

Servers run closed source binaries only with limited and revocable permission of the central authority (OpenCoin).  The only transactions servers that exist are the ones that OpenCoin has allowed to operate (and can revoke at any point in the future).
What exactly would you call that other than closed source and centrally controlled proprietary network? The fact that it may (or may not) change in the future doesn't negate the reality today.

[yvv]

IT IS CLOSED SOURCE.  

Show me the LICENSE?

That is the DEFINITION of closed source.

You have WRONG DEFINITION. Terms of use of any software are specified in software license upon the release. Ripple server WAS NOT RELEASED YET. Neither under opened nor under closed license. PERIOD.

YOU UNDERSTAND?
  
P.S. Does it make it more clear for you if I use a lot of capital letters and bold text?

[STT]

How is ripple secure if nobody is mining/hashing it

[DeathAndTaxes]

How is ripple secure if nobody is mining/hashing it

That same way PayPal is secure; OpenCoin acts as a central authority.  They maintain "the books".  Mining is only necessary to achieve consensus among untrusted peers.
On PayPal if their servers say you have $100 then you have $100 and if they say you don't then you don't.  Ripple is no different. 

[yvv]

Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

By the way, how do you plan to revoke sources from 100 of groups which have them now?

[yvv]

How is ripple secure if nobody is mining/hashing it

https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus

[DeathAndTaxes]

IT IS CLOSED SOURCE.  

Show me the LICENSE?

That is the DEFINITION of closed source.

You have WRONG DEFINITION. Terms of use of any software are specified in software license upon the release. Ripple server WAS NOT RELEASED YET. Neither under opened nor under closed license. PERIOD.

YOU UNDERSTAND?
  
P.S. Does it make it more clear for you if I use a lot of capital letters and bold text?

That is a dubious distinction.  It has been "released" the network is in use.  If it was an internal closed testnet only by companies employees that would be one thing but the network has been released to the public.  Real transactions are occuring everyday and they are occuring on proprietary transaction servers running closed source code.

Lets take your logic to the extreme.  Say 10 years have passed and the source code hasn't been made available "yet".  Is it still an "open source project"?  Yes or no.  If yes how about 5 years? 3 years? 1 year?

Open Source is open source.  If the binaries are not released under an open license and the source code made available then it isn't open source.  Period.  By the Open Source Initiative (http://opensource.org/), the Ripple server is not open source.  Hell by the definition of anyone other than a fanboy the Ripple Server is NOT open source.  Even Ripple (and supporters) don't claim the server is open source ... BECAUSE IT ISN'T.   The mere promise/claim of future open source doesn't make something open source.

[AmazonStuff]

How is ripple secure if nobody is mining/hashing it

Ripple is completely secure, here's more visual example, how Ripple Consensus works:
http://vimeo.com/64405422

[AmazonStuff]

It has been "released" the network was in use.  If it was an internal closed testnet that would be one thing but the network has been released to the public. 

Have you ever heard of open-beta?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

By the way, how do you plan to revoke sources from 100 of groups which have them now?

Simple.  Release a new version which drops connections from servers older than prior version.  Revoke access to the proprietary closed source binary to those you no longer want to run the server.

[DeathAndTaxes]

It has been "released" the network was in use.  If it was an internal closed testnet that would be one thing but the network has been released to the public.

Have you ever heard of open-beta?

Beta doesn't magically make it open source.  Bitcoin is considered an open-beta and the source code is available.  Imagine that.


Microsoft Windows 8.1 Preview (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/preview)
Closed Source, Beta

Bitcoin
Open Source, Beta

Ripple
Closed Source, Beta

[yvv]

the network has been released to the public

It clearly states "beta" on ripple web page.

By the Open Source Initiative (http://opensource.org/), the Ripple server is not open source.

Not closed source either.

Say 10 years have passed and the source code hasn't been made available "yet".

If it will not be released within several month, no matter closed or open source, it will die.

[AmazonStuff]

It has been "released" the network was in use.  If it was an internal closed testnet that would be one thing but the network has been released to the public.

Have you ever heard of open-beta?

Beta doesn't magically make it open-source.  Bitcoin is considered an open-beta and the source code is available.  Imagine that.


Microsoft Windows 8.1 Preview (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/preview)
Closed Source, Beta

Bitcoin
Open Source, Beta

Ripple
Closed Source, Beta

I agree, beta doesn't magically make it open source, but you must agree that it doesn't make it closed-source neither, that is something that is determined when software is officially released.

[DeathAndTaxes]

If it will not be released within several month, no matter closed or open source, it will die.

It won't be released ... certainly not in the next couple months.  OpenCoin is already distancing itself from Joel comments about wanting (not promising) the source code to be released by the end of the year.  It won't die because it was always intended to be bait and switch.  Just like you are trying to tell me night is day (closed source binary isn't closed source) in a couple months you (and others) will be even more invested and have a dozen excuses/rationals on why the code can't be released yet.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I agree, beta doesn't magically make it open source, but you must agree that it doesn't make it closed-source neither, that is something that is determined when software is officially released.

Of course I don't.  It is closed source until it is released under open source license.  By your "logic" if they NEVER release the source code then it can never be closed source.  Hmm?  Yeah that makes sense.

Source code =/= open source.

Open Source is an open license.  It can't be undone.  If Satoshi showed up tomorrow and said "nope I want Bitcoin to be closed source in the future" he would have no legal authority to do so.  The MIT license grants others the right to modify and distribute the code.  Open Source is about free software (free speech not free beer).  Until it is licensed as open source you are just hoping they will do so in the future.  If they don't?  Well that sucks but you have no legal authority to modify or distribute the code.  Open Source can't be "reversed" and that makes it incredibly powerful.

Ripple Server is closed source until it isn't.  Maybe it will be open sourced in the future but .... maybe it won't.  That is the whole point.

[yvv]

Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

By the way, how do you plan to revoke sources from 100 of groups which have them now?

Simple.  Release a new version which drops connections from servers older than prior version.  Revoke access to the proprietary closed source binary to those you no longer want to run the server.

You are talking crap here. It is essential for ripple network to have many servers running by different groups. Whatever OpenCoin does, this will not stop those who have server codes continue running their servers. Even if OpenCoin disappear immediately after ripple release, the network will continue to run until somebody is running servers.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason.  

By the way, how do you plan to revoke sources from 100 of groups which have them now?

Simple.  Release a new version which drops connections from servers older than prior version.  Revoke access to the proprietary closed source binary to those you no longer want to run the server.

You are talking crap here. It is essential for ripple network to have many servers running by different groups. Whatever OpenCoin does, this will not stop those who have server codes continue running their servers. Even if OpenCoin disappear immediately after ripple release, the network will continue to run until somebody is running servers.

It isn't essential for OpenCoin that ANYONE but OpenCoin (or approved lackeys) run servers.  It may be essential to your goals but OpenCoin has indicated that the network will work fine with just a handful of servers.   With decent hardware a handful (or one) server could handle tens of thousands of transactions a second without breaking a sweat.

If OpenCoin (and the source code dispaeared) tomorrow you really think the Ripple network could survive?  What someone is going to reverse engineer the server software?  At best that would be an incompatible hard fork.  The existing network operates solely at the will of OpenCoin.  Period.

[yvv]

By your "logic" if they NEVER release the source code then it can never be closed source. 

Dont juggle mister. Closed source software is one which is released under closed license.

[AmazonStuff]

I've been watching what is going on in OpenCoin lately and they are constantly hiring new developers, designers... They started to communicate on their forum, 5 days ago they got their new Director of Communication, new videos are appearing, website is redesigned, I have an impression that they are in a hurry. I think they are in a hurry because they are preparing something for Money2020:

http://www.money2020.com/
https://ripple.com/blog/win-free-tickets-to-the-exclusive-money2020-ripple-developer-conference-and-50000-xrp/

They have a long list of speakers:
Welcome and Introduction – Chris Larsen, CEO
Ripple Technical Overview – Stefan Thomas, CTO
Integrating with Ripple for Merchants and Gateways – Bob Way, Integration Engineer and Brian Keller-Heikkila, CTO of ZipZap, Inc.
Ripple Architecture and Advanced Uses – David Schwartz, Chief Cryptographer and Denis Kiselev, Founder and CEO of SnapSwap, Inc.
and at the last day a Ripple Dev Con will occur.

[yvv]

If OpenCoin (and the source code dispaeared) tomorrow you really think the Ripple network could survive?  What someone is going to reverse engineer the server software?  At best that would be an incompatible hard fork.  The existing network operates solely at the will of OpenCoin.  Period.

What will stop those who are running servers now continue to do it?

[DeathAndTaxes]

If OpenCoin (and the source code dispaeared) tomorrow you really think the Ripple network could survive?  What someone is going to reverse engineer the server software?  At best that would be an incompatible hard fork.  The existing network operates solely at the will of OpenCoin.  Period.

What will stop those who are running servers now continue to do it?

With no bugfixes, improvements, enhancements ever?  No the network wouldn't insta-die but imagine Satoshi had kept Bitcoin closed source and then disapeared.  Do you think Bitcoin would have flourished?

[yvv]

Beta doesn't magically make it open source.  Bitcoin is considered an open-beta and the source code is available.  Imagine that.


Microsoft Windows 8.1 Preview (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/preview)
Closed Source, Beta

Bitcoin
Open Source, Beta

Ripple
Closed Source, Beta

MtGox
Closed Source, Not Beta

MWHAHAHAHA!

[yvv]

With no bugfixes, improvements, enhancements ever?  No the network wouldn't insta-die but imagine Satoshi had kept Bitcoin closed source and then disapeared.  Do you think Bitcoin would have flourished?

Hundred different groups have rippled sources. What is a problem with bugfixes, improvements and enhancements?

[DeathAndTaxes]

By your "logic" if they NEVER release the source code then it can never be closed source. 

Dont juggle mister. Closed source software is one which is released under closed license.

Which the server IS otherwise it would include a copy of the source code and a open license.

You do understand that in contract law there is the concept of default provisions.  Unless otherwise licensed the code and any resulting binaries are the property of OpenCoin, Inc.   

Likewise lets say Microsoft's servers got hacked and someone released a complete copy of the windows source code.  It wouldn't be open source.  The source code would still belong to Microsoft, they would have the legal authority to go after those who distribute and modify it.  Now people could (and likely would) make unauthorized copies but unless the source code is licensed using an open license it remains the property of the owner.  The source code remains the property of OpenCoin, the haven't licensed it.  The server is a closed source, and proprietary.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Hundred different groups have rippled sources. What is a problem with bugfixes, improvements and enhancements?

No they don't.  The ripple server (rippled) is released as binary only.  Nobody has a copy of the source code except OpenCoin, Inc.   Even if someone did it would be no different than stealing source code from Microsoft.  It continues to remain the property of the owner and that owner could seek legal action against those who fraudulently use, modify, or distribute it.  If OpenCoin went bankrupt before releasing the source code under an open source license the assets of OpenCoin could be bought by another company say PayPal for the sole purpose of killing the project.

[DeathAndTaxes]

MtGox
Closed Source, Not Beta

I don't have to use MtGox to use Bitcoin.  I have to use the proprietary closed source ripple network to use Ripple.
See the difference?

[yvv]

Hundred different groups have rippled sources. What is a problem with bugfixes, improvements and enhancements?

No they don't.  The ripple server (rippled) is released as binary only.  Nobody has a copy of the source code except OpenCoin, Inc.   Even if someone did it would be no different than stealing source code from Microsoft.  It continues to remain the property of the owner and that owner could seek legal action against those who fraudulently use, modify, or distribute it.  If OpenCoin went bankrupt before releasing the source code under an open source license the assets of OpenCoin could be bought by another company say PayPal for the sole purpose of killing the project.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Rippled#Rippled

Rippled is the server component of the Ripple network. The source code is not currently publicly available. Rippled will be open sourced soon.

Early access to the source code is available to select business partners. If you are planning a Ripple based business and are interested in early access, please contact partners@ripple.com

You can talk to people who have rippled source code on ripple forum.

[yvv]

I don't have to use MtGox to use Bitcoin. 

Only in theory. Bitcoin is damn cool and damn useless without currency exchange. By MtGox I mean any centralized exchange.

[zwanzig20]

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

[CIYAM]

DeathAndTaxes is "right on the money" here.

OpenCoin has tried to be "very clever" but they have been *anything but* open.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

[yvv]

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.

Um that would assume each user only buy $1 worth of Ripple?  How about sell $100 to 100,000 users?  or $1,000 to 10,000 users? or $10,000 to 1,000 suckers?

[yvv]

I think there are too many ripples to be ever profitable

Profitable for whom?  OpenCoin still owns 90%+ of all the coins created.   Even with modest success they stand to make tens of millions of dollars.

To make tens of millions of dollars they need to attract tens of millions of users. This will not be so easy.

Um that would assume each user only buy $1 worth of Ripple?  How about sell $100 to 100,000 users?  or $1,000 to 10,000 users? or $10,000 to 1,000 suckers?

You need a fraction of  $ worth of XRP to run a ripple wallet. Suckers may buy whatever they want, even bitcoins.

[ElectricMucus]

Suckers may buy whatever they want, even bitcoins.

Nice!

[AmazonStuff]

Just imagine the future situation when all those AML verifications on BTC Exchange Websites become pay the btc taxes buddy (in my opinion  those will be pretty unfair big %) or you're going to jail because you are money launderer By that time, every household will have a copy of open-sourced Rippled server, like all the people have the copy of Bitcoin client right now. THEN you will see, what I was talking about and why it's important to have exchange INSIDE p2p network.

[Villem Anton]

A few points that people seems to be confused about.  To be clear from start, I consider Opencoin more or less a scam, not because the tech or design of the system, but because their questionable marketing, and dubious claims.

Opencoin is parasiting on Bitcoin fame. It is foolish to believe their Ripple will help Bitcoin in any way as the much quoted benefits are based on faulty conclusions,
- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.
- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Ripple is clearly a Bitcoin competitor. Saying it isn't does not change the fact that XRP is another currency, so by any definition it is a competitor. Saying it is not, is sneaky marketing crap.

Ripple is going to make profit by liquidating the XRP they "printed". In effect, if they are pre-printed or not does not matter as they are not in circulation, at this time. Very few XRP are released so Opencoin is in effect a central bank, regulating XRP. This is the whole point of XRP, printing money for Opencoin.

Ripple addresses are extremely easy to use to uncover users identity as you will not have many more than one. In fact, all your credit lines are associated to a single address so it is impossibly impractical to use many addresses to get more privacy. Also, David Schwartz is an old NSA guy. I would never trust anyone who worked there except for Mr. Snowden. Opencoin is funded by VCs and they would likely see their scheme get good traction help by NSA or DHS while bitcoins get outlawed. Opencoins Ripple would actually be The Perfect Surveillance Tool via the public ledger.

To conclude, XRP is superfluous for a ripple like scheme, you could as well use some recognized USD credits, or why not Bitcoin credits, as fees. Also, a public ledger is not ok when you have few-to-one address -> user. The database has to be distributed amoung the creditors and debtors. It should not be global. I really think the bitcoin community could design a better ripple scheme like this, using the some consensus validation which I think is a good design.

[ElectricMucus]

Ripple is and will be around, deal with it.

[ElectricMucus]

I'm staying far, far away from it and encourage others as well.   

Have a bitstamp account?

[herzmeister]

How is ripple secure if nobody is mining/hashing it

https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus

Bitcoin works on Consensus too, in case people haven't noticed.

The real question is about how to find consensus. How do you measure one vote if you have no central authority to determine real life identities?

There are only three known methods known yet:

* CPU cycles vote (proof of work)
* Existing coins vote (proof of stake)
* A web of trust

Ripple basically uses a web of trust. Server nodes will be somewhat invite-only. Also I can imagine there's a reason why creating more than one account is discouraged (as they cost XRPs), and there effectively may be some proof of stake thrown in here and there which may be another reason why these XRPs exist.

[nameface]

- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.

Nobody is debating the necessity of liquidity in Ripple in order to perform currency exchange.

- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Again, I agree with you that liquidity is a huge issue. But if there is liquidity, I'm sure the balances for the most trusted gateways will be worth about the same. Ripple is trying to federate the existing banking system. Nobody today ever says: " It sucks that my Bank of America USD is worth less than my Citibank USD".

Ripple is clearly a Bitcoin competitor. Saying it isn't does not change the fact that XRP is another currency, so by any definition it is a competitor. Saying it is not, is sneaky marketing crap.

I totally disagree with your quip about the sneakiness. XRP is not Bitcoin, they are different. They will compete in some ways, and help each other in other ways.

Ripple is going to make profit by liquidating the XRP they "printed". In effect, if they are pre-printed or not does not matter as they are not in circulation, at this time. Very few XRP are released so Opencoin is in effect a central bank, regulating XRP. This is the whole point of XRP, printing money for Opencoin.

The point of XRP is to secure Ripple. OpenCoin created this technology, and they are now selling and giving it away. This does not make them a central bank. Anybody can use Ripple freely if it makes their life more convenient, and $1 worth of XRP will possibly pay a lifetime of transaction fees. I use Bitcoin all the time, and sometimes I trade Bitcoin balances, or move them around in Ripple because it is convenient.

Ripple addresses are extremely easy to use to uncover users identity as you will not have many more than one.

If you wanted maximum anonimity why would you use only one address? It functions very similarly to Bitcoin in this regard.

In fact, all your credit lines are associated to a single address so it is impossibly impractical to use many addresses to get more privacy.

It's true that it's more convenient to stick to a smaller number of addresses. But you can set trust lines for any number of accounts very easily, and you only need 1 trust line to trade Bitcoin or fiat in Ripple.

Also, David Schwartz is an old NSA guy. I would never trust anyone who worked there except for Mr. Snowden. Opencoin is funded by VCs and they would likely see their scheme get good traction help by NSA or DHS while bitcoins get outlawed. Opencoins Ripple would actually be The Perfect Surveillance Tool via the public ledger.

The fact that Katz worked with the NSA at some point in his career reinforces my confidence in him. He must really know what he's doing. Anyways, there are bunch of developers working on Ripple everyday. Anyone who doesn't trust them can just wait until it's open sourced.

To conclude, XRP is superfluous for a ripple like scheme, you could as well use some recognized USD credits, or why not Bitcoin credits, as fees. Also, a public ledger is not ok when you have few-to-one address -> user. The database has to be distributed amoung the creditors and debtors. It should not be global. I really think the bitcoin community could design a better ripple scheme like this, using the some consensus validation which I think is a good design.

The Bitcoin community did design Ripple, more or less. Maybe in the future a better similar system will exist? I don't doubt it, tech is always moving forward.

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

The most telling thing about OC Ripple is how everyone defending it makes such terribly flimsy, not-even-trying arguments. Without exception they give off the impression that they are merely to continue firing back even if all they have left to load in their cannon is wet noodles. "It's open source because it hasn't been released with a closed source license"? I can't even imagine a more tepid and transparent response.

OCRipple remains the most boneheadedly galling and brazen ploy since pirate@40.

[AmazonStuff]

The most telling thing about OC Ripple is how everyone defending it makes such terribly flimsy, not-even-trying arguments. Without exception they give off the impression that they are merely to continue firing back even if all they have left to load in their cannon is wet noodles. "It's open source because it hasn't been released with a closed source license"? I can't even imagine a more tepid and transparent response.

OCRipple remains the most boneheadedly galling and brazen ploy since pirate@40.

It hasn't been released yet at all, nor under open-source, nor under closed-source licence, it's planned to be open-source when it's released.
Do you realize that your argument is that Ripple supporters are wrong?

[elm]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

[AmazonStuff]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

Read this pages for Ripple merchants:
https://ripple.com/partners/

[wiggi]

It is foolish to believe their Ripple will help Bitcoin in any way as the much quoted benefits are based on faulty conclusions,
- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.
- debt valuation depends on the debtor

If (in the far future) everyone will have an open-sourced Ripple server and XRP valuation has left bubble territory,
it's almost an automatic distributed trustless currency exchange and it will help Bitcoin. Almost because you still have to trust a gateway for
transactions.

[ervalvola]

The other thing people miss: XRP = Market Making Currency...
If the network is ever scaled up...
The most favorable exchange price will always flow through XRP...

Trading XRP has huge risks involved (even more than trading BTC and these can be already quite volatile), I doubt that there will be big liquidity providers using XRP trades in the longer run. This is paired with an entity that is known to be willing to sell its stash (unlike Satoshi who is controlling a large part of all available BTC but has disappeared). If you want to play the big investor and market maker, you should definitely stay within BTC territory and not mess with XRP.

Sukrim, I alwais appreciate your posts but here I have to strongly disagree: XRPs are the fuel of the ripple network. Every gateway must have a strong market between his IOUs and XRP if it wants his IOUs to be liquid and exploit the potential of the federate protocol (managing a single market a gateway can link its currency to every other currency in the ripple network, instead of dealing one by one with thousands of gateways and different tokens)

This difference in usage between XRP and BTC should be pointed out. Bitcoin has an ideological push as "currency for the people" (regardless of the fact that we believe in it or not) that XRP hasn't, because it's not designed for that purpose.
Shouldn't be so hard to think at XRP as a "business" currency, useful for entrepreneurs, market makers and investors (the reckless ones ) while the Ripple Network is for the people, even and especially bitcoiners.

And this perspective, in my point of view, could solve many of the misunderstandings we see here at bitcointalk.

[elm]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

Read this pages for Ripple merchants:
https://ripple.com/partners/

thanks I have read it. ok sounds good but is there some one who has already used it and can give some feedback?

cheers

[AmazonStuff]

Actually whoever invests in ripple now is making a huge mistake.

Ripple is not just a alt-coin, it's a payment system that makes easier for people in countries with rigid bank regulations to move their money, so I really think that OpenCoin made a good move, it's like they asked me for advice

can You point me to an URL to get more info about their payment system? can I use them to get payments in BTC and do Pay outs in BTC for my website?

Read this pages for Ripple merchants:
https://ripple.com/partners/

thanks I have read it. ok sounds good but is there some one who has already used it and can give some feedback?

cheers

I haven't been using Ripple as a merchant, so I can't talk about that side of Ripple.

On the other side, I think you don't need to become a Ripple merchant at all, your bitcoin enabled website is just fine.

You just need to offer your services to Ripple community, because every Rippler can make a direct payment to any bitcoin address from his Ripple wallet via something called "Bitcoin Bridge". Basically, every Rippler is actually Bitcoiner too

[erk]

You just need to offer your services to Ripple community, because every Rippler can make a direct payment to any bitcoin address from his Ripple wallet via something called "Bitcoin Bridge". Basically, every Rippler is actually Bitcoiner too

Just what we need, a centralized interception of Bitcoin transactions too. Was Ripple designed by the NSA?

[yvv]

You just need to offer your services to Ripple community, because every Rippler can make a direct payment to any bitcoin address from his Ripple wallet via something called "Bitcoin Bridge". Basically, every Rippler is actually Bitcoiner too

Just what we need, a centralized interception of Bitcoin transactions too. Was Ripple designed by the NSA?

We totally agree.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/tin-foil-hat.jpg?f9d891

[murraypaul]

- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.

Nobody is debating the necessity of liquidity in Ripple in order to perform currency exchange.

- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Again, I agree with you that liquidity is a huge issue. But if there is liquidity, I'm sure the balances for the most trusted gateways will be worth about the same. Ripple is trying to federate the existing banking system. Nobody today ever says: " It sucks that my Bank of America USD is worth less than my Citibank USD".

Really?
How about: "It sucks that my Bank of Cyprus EUR is worth less than my Bank of Germany EUR"
Seems like I have heard people say that.
The value of an IOU is proportionate to the trustworthiness of the issuer.
Any system that ignores that is broken by design.

[ElectricMucus]

- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.

Nobody is debating the necessity of liquidity in Ripple in order to perform currency exchange.

- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Again, I agree with you that liquidity is a huge issue. But if there is liquidity, I'm sure the balances for the most trusted gateways will be worth about the same. Ripple is trying to federate the existing banking system. Nobody today ever says: " It sucks that my Bank of America USD is worth less than my Citibank USD".

Really?
How about: "It sucks that my Bank of Cyprus EUR is worth less than my Bank of Germany EUR"
Seems like I have heard people say that.
The value of an IOU is proportionate to the trustworthiness of the issuer.
Any system that ignores that is broken by design.

The balances in the Cyprus accounts just shrunk, it's not like the actual Euros are worth less, there are just less of them.

AFIK the ripple protocol allows you to assign quality factors to your own trust lines to compensate for that risk.

[elm]

is there a merchant who is using ripple for BTC payments? and can shed some light because I am still in the dark. any help is very much appreciated

[QuantPlus]

- an automatic distributed currency exchange is complete vaporware. It will require a lot more than technology to work, e.g. like liquidity.

Nobody is debating the necessity of liquidity in Ripple in order to perform currency exchange.

- debt valuation depends on the debtor, just compare mtgox and bitstamp USD credits now and you understand how this must be handled inside a Ripple scheme. If you were to exchange currency you trade credits with one debtor with credits for another debtor. Here is the econ theoretic argument - any tuple of debtors in such a transaction creates its on market, so the credits are not fungible. Liquidity will be very thin.

Again, I agree with you that liquidity is a huge issue. But if there is liquidity, I'm sure the balances for the most trusted gateways will be worth about the same. Ripple is trying to federate the existing banking system. Nobody today ever says: " It sucks that my Bank of America USD is worth less than my Citibank USD".

Really?
How about: "It sucks that my Bank of Cyprus EUR is worth less than my Bank of Germany EUR"
Seems like I have heard people say that.
The value of an IOU is proportionate to the trustworthiness of the issuer.
Any system that ignores that is broken by design.

The balances in the Cyprus accounts just shrunk, it's not like the actual Euros are worth less, there are just less of them.

AFIK the ripple protocol allows you to assign quality factors to your own trust lines to compensate for that risk.

I just logged on to Ripple for 1st time in 2 months.
It looks like there's been ZERO progress.

On github there are 234 open Bug Reports...
If your money disappears you just become another "Bug". What fun.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues?state=open

You still cannot produce a Tax Compliant trading report...
Via History Page or any other manner...
I remember the Devs being mystified why any trader would need detailed records...
Hippies don't pay taxes, I suppose.

I used the API and it's a joke...
To get a transaction... a DB record is JSON stringed and dumped on the Net...
Every transaction requires a 2,500 string be converted twice...
And *** no transaction is guaranteed to be available ***...
It depends if there is a server willing to send you information.

People take money super-seriously...
People send money to feed their families and pay for cancer surgery...
For many people transmitting money is a life and death matter...
That, baby, is worth $20 or whatever.

The people at OpenCoin have no respect for this...
To the hippy devs at Ripple money is an esoteric concept in their cool code.

Western Union takes money very, very seriously...
And have a massive Security Department... not a Cryptology Fetish.

Reuters has been selling out-of-the-box sub 1 millisecond trading for 5-6 years...
The laughable Ripple network is something Reuters might have been doing in the mid 90s.

Sorry, but 2 months ago I decided Ripple was doomed... and it worse looks now.

[murraypaul]

The balances in the Cyprus accounts just shrunk, it's not like the actual Euros are worth less, there are just less of them.

Currency controls prevent the free movement of Euros out of Cyprus.
Euros in other countries are not so restricted.
As a practical matter, Euros in Cyprus have less utility than those outside of it, and therefore less value.

[kneim]

The balances in the Cyprus accounts just shrunk, it's not like the actual Euros are worth less, there are just less of them.

Currency controls prevent the free movement of Euros out of Cyprus.
Euros in other countries are not so restricted.
As a practical matter, Euros in Cyprus have less utility than those outside of it, and therefore less value.

It's a similar effect as with Mt.Gox now.

Someone could go there with no EUR but enough BTC, change BTC to EUR on a good rate, make a cheap holiday, and come back with some cash in the pocket. Cyprus is nice for making holidays, and it would help them.

[EskimoBob]

Where can I trade this stuff for PPC, LTC or BTC?

[ElectricMucus]

I just logged on to Ripple for 1st time in 2 months.
It looks like there's been ZERO progress.

On github there are 234 open Bug Reports...
If your money disappears you just become another "Bug". What fun.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues?state=open

From a software development standpoint this is actually a good thing. It means people are actually beta-testing it and reporting what they find out. And if you look at the amount of Closed reports it seems they are actually fixed!

[Villem Anton]

Very funny how opencoin supporters very much seems like shills, as they show zero level of critical thinking!

Not wanting to repeat my previous points, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287065.msg3102946#msg3102946,
I want to stress that millennia old knowledge about debt is ignored here;

* Debt is not fungible but dependent on debtor. The "gateways" are not merely like IP routers, but debtors and thus backers of a risk valued asset.

This has several consequences. The "rippling" of debt has to take into account the change in risk, and the risk has to be compensated for with interest, or similar construct. Debt needs intimate knowledge between creditor to debtor to be efficient in risk valuation. The fact that a third of ever existing BTC exchanges have vanished for one or other reason, tells you that basing a currency on credit extended to gateways exposes users to crazy risk. Put another way, gateways are the perfect scam point in the system.

Gateways are also a choke point for the can of worms called regulation, as they in effect, are deposit banks.

[nameface]

Where can I trade this stuff for PPC, LTC or BTC?

If you want to trade XRP for BTC you can do that in ripple very easily. There used to be some liquidity in LTC, I don't know if there is much now... For PPC you must trade XRP for BTC and send to a trading site (like BTC-E).

I just logged on to Ripple for 1st time in 2 months.
It looks like there's been ZERO progress.

On github there are 234 open Bug Reports...
If your money disappears you just become another "Bug". What fun.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues?state=open

From a software development standpoint this is actually a good thing. It means people are actually beta-testing it and reporting what they find out. And if you look at the amount of Closed reports it seems they are actually fixed!

I 100% agree. The fact that Ripple has bugs in it is a negative that is far outweighed by the fact that these bugs are being found and fixed at a rapid pace.

Also, there are almost zero significant cases of people's money dissapearing. Of course like Bitcoin there are people who lose their keys, but I follow Ripple very closely and I can't think of any unresolved 'fishy' losses. Not bad, almost 25,000 Ripple accounts, virtually no losses.

[Sukrim]

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.  

Incorrect. Ripple runs on ~100 servers now.

Provide a link to the download.

Well, the code is here: https://github.com/ripple/rippled - you can't access it though if you don't have the necessary credentials (that do NOT include being an OpenCoin employee...).

I know for a fact that rippled does NOT run only on OpenCoin owned hardware. I could easily prove that by for example posting a recent commit hash or a hash of a binary created from source. I definitely wouldn't recommend anyone though to "leak" the source code though, as it still needs polishing and some refactoring (although it seems to continue on a steady pace).

If the distribution of XRP and the conduct of OpenCoin is a problem, at least the world will have their technology.

No they won't the transaction server is closed source and only runs on OpenCoin owned hardware.  

Both statements are false.

Yet you admit in the next post that the transaction server IS closed source and only available to approved lackeys of OpenCoin.  Replaced "owned" with "approved".  Nobody runs the closed source binaries with OpenCoins experess permission.  Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

Closed source and absolute central control of the network.   Ripple is PayPal 2.0.

How many people external to PayPal have full access to PayPal's server code?

Rippled sources are not THAT hard to come by, have you actually asked for early access with a good reason? Also I am not aware of any NDAs etc. that are being signed when gaining access to rippled sources, maybe someone else can help you there...

Permission which can be revoked at any point in the future for any reason. 

By the way, how do you plan to revoke sources from 100 of groups which have them now?

Simple.  Release a new version which drops connections from servers older than prior version.  Revoke access to the proprietary closed source binary to those you no longer want to run the server.

Guess what, people would release the code for the latest version they had access to then. OpenCoin provides source code, no pre-compiled binaries. Build instructions are here: https://ripple.com/wiki/Rippled_build_instructions

Hundred different groups have rippled sources. What is a problem with bugfixes, improvements and enhancements?

No they don't.  The ripple server (rippled) is released as binary only.  Nobody has a copy of the source code except OpenCoin, Inc.   Even if someone did it would be no different than stealing source code from Microsoft.  It continues to remain the property of the owner and that owner could seek legal action against those who fraudulently use, modify, or distribute it.  If OpenCoin went bankrupt before releasing the source code under an open source license the assets of OpenCoin could be bought by another company say PayPal for the sole purpose of killing the project.

This is simply wrong, rippled is released as source code only. Dozens, if not hundreds of people external to OpenCoin have access to this source code, in various legislations. Good luck in hunting them down or even finding out who uploaded an archive of a .git folder on a filedump website.
I agree that it would still be risky to develop this code any further, but at least it would still run and could be used for re-implementations.

The other thing people miss: XRP = Market Making Currency...
If the network is ever scaled up...
The most favorable exchange price will always flow through XRP...

Trading XRP has huge risks involved (even more than trading BTC and these can be already quite volatile), I doubt that there will be big liquidity providers using XRP trades in the longer run. This is paired with an entity that is known to be willing to sell its stash (unlike Satoshi who is controlling a large part of all available BTC but has disappeared). If you want to play the big investor and market maker, you should definitely stay within BTC territory and not mess with XRP.

Sukrim, I alwais appreciate your posts but here I have to strongly disagree: XRPs are the fuel of the ripple network. Every gateway must have a strong market between his IOUs and XRP if it wants his IOUs to be liquid and exploit the potential of the federate protocol (managing a single market a gateway can link its currency to every other currency in the ripple network, instead of dealing one by one with thousands of gateways and different tokens)

This difference in usage between XRP and BTC should be pointed out. Bitcoin has an ideological push as "currency for the people" (regardless of the fact that we believe in it or not) that XRP hasn't, because it's not designed for that purpose.
Shouldn't be so hard to think at XRP as a "business" currency, useful for entrepreneurs, market makers and investors (the reckless ones ) while the Ripple Network is for the people, even and especially bitcoiners.

And this perspective, in my point of view, could solve many of the misunderstandings we see here at bitcointalk.

I'm still working on my market analysis code but I'm not too sure if even now IOUs have to have the strongest paths + liquidity towards XRP. I would suspect liquidity towards USD.Bitstamp and BTC.Bitstamp is at least as important as towards XRP at the moment, if not the most important factor for an IOU. Gateways don't have to (after some initial difficulties maybe) deal with other gateways at all, as liquidity problems can be detected and filled easily by bots for example. I agree with the "XRP is more for the risk loving people who like to trade and code bots while IOUs are useful for the 'users'" though.

Where can I trade this stuff for PPC, LTC or BTC?

DividendRippler offers easily redeemable BTC, NMC, TRC (whatever they are?) and LTC IOUs, their website makes it quite easy to automate things. After you set up your redemption addresses there, all you need to do is to send money to their address and specify which currency should be paid out and which of your IOUs or XRP should be used as input.

PPC seem to be rare enough that nobody set up a gateway (yet), so your best shot might be getting BTC (or something else with high liquidity towards PPC) and trading these.

[r3wt]

I just logged on to Ripple for 1st time in 2 months.
It looks like there's been ZERO progress.

On github there are 234 open Bug Reports...
If your money disappears you just become another "Bug". What fun.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues?state=open

From a software development standpoint this is actually a good thing. It means people are actually beta-testing it and reporting what they find out. And if you look at the amount of Closed reports it seems they are actually fixed!

LoL, you my friend are far to hilarious to put on the ignore list.

[Sukrim]

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues - 407 open issues... is this now better or worse?

I am not aware of a lot of people losing access to their funds - one case would be https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues/629 for example where someone created a NEW wallet with the same seed (Username + Password), overwriting an existing one that wasn't backed up as well.

If your money disappeared, please post your Ripple address, then I can check what was going on. Otherwise I call this just FUD, similar to the stuff that DeathAndTaxes tries to pull off here, stating things like "rippled is only distributed as binary" which are simply wrong.

[guugll]

i was under impression Ripple is a bad joke?
why you people still waste your time with that 100% scam coin?

[Sukrim]

I just hope people around here are open enough to accept or at least re-evaluate Ripple once it is opened up (whenever that is) to the public. There are just a lot of misconceptions about them.

Also a huge amount and volume of Bitcoin transactions takes place in centralized, truly closed-source (and they are NEVER even claiming to open up!) and profit oriented IOU issuer's proprietary accounting tools. I find it kinda strange that OpenCoin generates so much mistrust, while others (who pull off even weirder stuff --> Mastercoin) seem to be more welcomed. It looks like "Ripplers" then seem to be of the impression that "Bitcoiners" are afraid because obviously Ripple is the better system and could potentially drive Bitcoin out of the market. On the other side there is usually a lot of mistrust since Ripple does not only claim to be a working distributed exchange (which it is!) but also that there is a currency implemented that is used to fund a company instead of just taking a fixed cut (something that is not really possible for distributed exchanges...) from trades.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Also a huge amount and volume of Bitcoin transactions takes place in centralized, truly closed-source (and they are NEVER even claiming to open up!) and profit oriented IOU issuer's proprietary accounting tools. I find it kinda strange that OpenCoin generates so much mistrust, while others (who pull off even weirder stuff --> Mastercoin) seem to be more welcomed. It looks like "Ripplers" then seem to be of the impression that "Bitcoiners" are afraid because obviously Ripple is the better system and could potentially drive Bitcoin out of the market. On the other side there is usually a lot of mistrust since Ripple does not only claim to be a working distributed exchange (which it is!) but also that there is a currency implemented that is used to fund a company instead of just taking a fixed cut (something that is not really possible for distributed exchanges...) from trades.

Someday there may be Bitcoin banks too but the difference between Bitcoin and the existing banking system is you can "opt out".  You don't have to use exchanges, and you don't have to use future Bitcoin banks.  The core network remains open and anyone can choose to be a node.  With Ripple the entire network is proprietary, closed source, and centrally controlled.  Nodes only run closed source code owned by OpenCoin, Inc and operate with the express limited permission of the owner.   There is no way to "opt out" other than never use it.  

[Sukrim]

So once the code is open sourced, you'll admit that Ripple is as open as Bitcoin? After all, anyone then could run their own validator if they are so inclined (though that is not too useful in some cases)...

I'm wondering where you get these statements like "Nodes only run closed source code owned by OpenCoin, Inc and operate with the express limited permission of the owner." from... please quote the section from the LICENSE file that says so as you apparently have different information than I have.

[dmatthewstewart]

Lets just be honest with ourselves here...Ripple is not "conquering" anything.

Principals and other investors have had to spend a lot of time fraudulently creating demand (ie posting threads all over offering to pay top dollar for it, taking a loss now hoping it will pay off later). Unfortunately, they do not understand basic economics.

Lets do a test...for the Pro-Ripple crowd.

1) What is the outcome of buying at an artificially inflated cost?

2) If the coin/payment system gains some traction in a certain geographical region, how does that benefit a market without borders? Just having a lot of people take interest is not enough to sustain it. After all, those with the most interest in XRP are artificially inflating the price. So what happens? (Hint: its a multi-step process with more than two steps but les than 4)

[AmazonStuff]

Ripple will be the network of all networks...

Ripple Bridge Protocol

A bridge protocol is an addition to RTXP that allows payments from Ripple to external networks. For example, the Bitcoin Bridge allows Ripple payments to be sent to any Bitcoin address. Other bridges are being developed, including an email bridge, a SMS bridge, and a bank-account bridge. Ultimately, bridge protocols will allow Ripple payments to be sent to any kind of account.

[bibbit]

2) If the coin/payment system gains some traction in a certain geographical region, how does that benefit a market without borders?

If the system gains good traction in a certain geographical area that is the destination for substantial flows of remittances, then this will encourage those sending the remittances from outside the area to adopt the system as well.

Since China is the thread topic, consider it: China is #2 for remittances at $66 Billion USD per year in 2012 (http://english.cri.cn/6826/2013/08/07/2702s780437.htm discusses this). Ripple in China is also taking off.

Since Ripple has currency conversion built in, a Chinese worker in the US could be paid direct deposit at a US bank, have a effortless ACH transfer to their USD Ripple gateway (Say, snapswap.us or an upcoming one), then use Ripple to send CNY to their family in China, who use either rippleCN or Ripple China as CNY gateways.

Large Chinese uptake of Ripple makes it a no-brainer for ex-pat Chinese nationals to start using the system to send money home. At no point in this process do they need to care about the XRP's capability to "hold value" as a currency for longer than it takes to perform the transaction. If there is a good market for CNY-rippleCN/USD-SnapSwap or CNY-RippleChina/USD-SnapSwap, the conversion might not even pass through XRP as an intermediary.

China is only the #2 remittance market, but there are many others. All are fertile ground for adoption, and growth in one country will prompt growth in others as network effects take hold.    

[DeathAndTaxes]

So once the code is open sourced, you'll admit that Ripple is as open as Bitcoin? After all, anyone then could run their own validator if they are so inclined (though that is not too useful in some cases)...

I'm wondering where you get these statements like "Nodes only run closed source code owned by OpenCoin, Inc and operate with the express limited permission of the owner." from... please quote the section from the LICENSE file that says so as you apparently have different information than I have.

When the source code is available and it is issued under an open source license with redistribution, modification, and derivative work rights then yes I will consider it an open network.  Of course I don't think that will happen.  OpenCoin is already backing off from having source code available by the end of the year.  OpenCoin sole when to monetize this is to sell off the coins they have given themselves.  An open source version will inevitably spawn a fork/alt which has no premine there will be no open source servers.

[sublime5447]

I dont care if it is open source or not. What kills me is it doesn't do anything it doesn't solve one problem. It is a little reading but i thought the responses by Joel katz (I believe a developer on the ripple project.) where very interesting. Looks to me like even he admits ripple doesnt work.

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290914.msg3124372#msg3124372 here is the thread.

here is a quote

Quote from: JoelKatz on Today at 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: sublime5447 on Today at 03:53:44 PM


you are letting you bias against paypal influence your thinking. It might be hard for you to figure out a system to trade bitcoin it wouldnt be a problem for paypal, but would make ripple totally irrelevant.

"Quite the contrary, that would be great for Ripple. Ripple currently has the same problem Bitcoin does -- it's hard to get fiat money into and out of the system because of exactly the problems I'm trying to draw attention to here -- it's hard to mix soft money and hard money systems. If people could easily buy and sell Bitcoins, that would make it much easier for them to get money into and out of Ripple because Bitcoins are hard money."



Does anyone else find this laughable? ripple was sold as an easier way to get bitcoin!

If people can just buy bitcoin they wouldn't have any need for ripple!

Any fool can see that.

[AmazonStuff]

I dont care if it is open source or not. What kills me is it doesn't do anything it doesn't solve one problem. It is a little reading but i thought the responses by Joel katz (I believe a developer on the ripple project.) where very interesting. Looks to me like even he admits ripple doesnt work.

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290914.msg3124372#msg3124372 here is the thread.

here is a quote

Quote from: JoelKatz on Today at 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: sublime5447 on Today at 03:53:44 PM


you are letting you bias against paypal influence your thinking. It might be hard for you to figure out a system to trade bitcoin it wouldnt be a problem for paypal, but would make ripple totally irrelevant.

"Quite the contrary, that would be great for Ripple. Ripple currently has the same problem Bitcoin does -- it's hard to get fiat money into and out of the system because of exactly the problems I'm trying to draw attention to here -- it's hard to mix soft money and hard money systems. If people could easily buy and sell Bitcoins, that would make it much easier for them to get money into and out of Ripple because Bitcoins are hard money."



Does anyone else find this laughable? ripple was sold as an easier way to get bitcoin!

If people can just buy bitcoin they wouldn't have any need for ripple!

Any fool can see that.

You are mixing Ripple network with XRP, those are two separate entities, read my previous post and you will see why it will be easier to buy btc via Ripple network.

[sublime5447]

what now? link? This is the first I am hearing of this XRP is not the symbol for ripple? 

[hennessyhemp]

Ripple and Bitcoin are both still very early on in their development...like Apple in the 80's.  Joel Katz has stated he would consider it a personal failure if they do not release some of the code to be available as open source before the end of the year (if memory serves...someone else can probably find you the thread where he said that).

My take is XRP is hanging in the background for now until Liberty Reserve and BTC legal issues are clarified prior to really making it a big deal (especially with investors on US soil).  The Ripple network is a pretty cool concept, and they've done a beautiful job putting it together.  I think Ripple may fill in where BTC and Paypal fall short...or at least that is the intention.  

I do think it is prudent to recognize the misrepresentation of the concept as Open source using the "OpenCoin" moniker.  That is downright misleading until source code is view-able on github.  I have my doubts and my hopes, but in the end...Google is behind some of it, so I feel strongly it will be more than it is now, soon.

what now? link? This is the first I am hearing of this XRP is not the symbol for ripple?  

I believe he is trying to make the distinction that you don't necessarily need xrp to use Ripple's network...at least that's the theory.

[sublime5447]

Ripple and Bitcoin are both still very early on in their development...like Apple in the 80's.  Joel Katz has stated he would consider it a personal failure if they do not release some of the code to be available as open source before the end of the year (if memory serves...someone else can probably find you the thread where he said that).

My take is XRP is hanging in the background for now until Liberty Reserve and BTC legal issues are clarified prior to really making it a big deal (especially with investors on US soil).  The Ripple network is a pretty cool concept, and they've done a beautiful job putting it together.  I think Ripple may fill in where BTC and Paypal fall short...or at least that is the intention.  

I do think it is prudent to recognize the misrepresentation of the concept as Open source using the "OpenCoin" moniker.  That is downright misleading until source code is view-able on github.  I have my doubts and my hopes, but in the end...Google is behind some of it, so I feel strongly it will be more than it is now, soon.

what now? link? This is the first I am hearing of this XRP is not the symbol for ripple?  

I believe he is trying to make the distinction that you don't necessarily need xrp to use Ripple's network...at least that's the theory.

It is a trust network as I understand it right? Trust: 19: -0 / +23(23 I already have one of those.

[ronimacarroni]

Can anyone tell me how this thing works?
I looked at the wikipedia article and it basically says its a debt based cryptocurrency that you can trade for social points.
Like wtf if that supposed to mean.

[sublime5447]

No one cant tell you how it works because it doesn't. i think it boils down to a trust network.

[yvv]

No one cant tell you how it works because it doesn't. i think it boils down to a trust network.

It works, very simple way. Currently very unstable though. Just try it, it does not cost too much.

[Sukrim]

Can anyone tell me how this thing works?
I looked at the wikipedia article and it basically says its a debt based cryptocurrency that you can trade for social points.
Like wtf if that supposed to mean.

No one cant tell you how it works because it doesn't. i think it boils down to a trust network.

You can look through Ripple's wiki (https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page) and yes, it does work.

Anyways, the main analogue that I usually use for Bitcoin is gold (something that has very little value in itself but that is useful for store of wealth because it is perceived by others the same).
For Ripple I usually use the banking network (= you have an account at your home bank and can receive ACHs from any other bank in the world that in the end gets added to your balance on your account. This balance is money that is DEBT from your bank towards you, also called "IOUs" ("I owe you"s)).

In Ripple you would have an account at a gateway, which is a money processor that can pay you money that you receive in your Ripple account and take money and credit it to your ripple account. Whenever someone on Ripple sends you money, in the end it will be converted to a balance of IOUs that you accept (typically the ones from your gateway, as you know these can be redeemed).

Trust lines in Ripple are used to tell the network which IOUs you accept and to which amount. This is not really modelled in the example, but you could for example think of a scenario where you might open a second bank account, once you have one filled with 100k USD, to always be FDIC insured - so your implicit limit towards one bank would be 100k USD. Ripple makes these limits explicit.

The biggest problem for OpenCoin as operators of this network is now, how to earn money from this without limiting users what they can do with it. In the bank network, banks simply charge fees in their own IOUs (e.g. you have to pay 10 cents per ACH) and pay the international networks (e.g. SWIFT or SEPA) some basic fee. This would mean that OpenCoin would need to charge each gateway all around the world some money that in the end needs to somehow end up on THEIR bank account (probably in USD) as they want to eat too.

The road that they took (and which is criticised a lot here) is that they introduced an "intermediate" currency - XRP. These are (like Bitcoins) completely arbitrary and worthless, but adhering to certain rules and also useful - so they might have some value. Contrary to BTC, which were designed to be given away as randomly as possible to anyone in the world, XRP were given to OpenCoin and are to be sold or given away from a centralized source. This way, they don't have to care about if someone issues IOUs in some currency that they don't even want (e.g. EUR), because if OpenCoin just took a flat 0.01% fee for example, they would end up with all kinds of different balances, like you having hundreds of tiny bank accounts at hundreds of different banks all with a handful of USD, EUR, GBP, CNY, BTC and whatnot in them.

All in all Ripple is a decentralized exchange, their business model is making money from selling their internal funny money and their product is rippled (the currently not publicly available server software used to verify transactions) and clients and libraries interfacing with rippled (these are open source and available on github).

If you have more concrete questions, please feel free to ask, maybe in a seperate thread, as this one is more about Ripple being used more and more in China.

[AmazonStuff]

Easiest Ripple definition:
Ripple Network -  Any Currency Exchange P2P Network
XRP - liquidity based currency

[sublime5447]

"Any Currency Exchange P2P Network" 

I buy and sell P2P everyday. I am not part of the ripple network.

[Sukrim]

I guess (s)he meant: "A P2P network where you can exchange arbitrary/any currencies"

[bibbit]

Can anyone tell me how this thing works?
I looked at the wikipedia article and it basically says its a debt based cryptocurrency that you can trade for social points.
Like wtf if that supposed to mean.

No one cant tell you how it works because it doesn't. i think it boils down to a trust network.

It does involve trust, in the same way that trading on a Bitcoin exchange involves trusting the exchange.

Start by considering how Bitcoin exchanges involve trust, and then build from there. JoelKatz said it really well on the Ripple forum in December 2012 (why exchange rates in the example are dated):

Think about how existing Bitcoin exchanges work. I deposit $100 in the exchange, and the exchange now owes me $100. You deposit 8 Bitcoins in the exchange, and the exchange now owes you 8 Bitcoins. To do the actual exchange, you and I exchange IOUs. Now the exchange owes you $100 and owes me 8 Bitcoins. We both redeem our IOUs, and I have exchanged dollars for Bitcoins and you have exchanged Bitcoins for dollars.

You have a deposit step, an exchange, and then a withdrawal step. The actual *exchange* is an exchange of IOUs.

The difference is that Ripple functions as a distributed exchange, so that the parties in the trade can trust different exchanges (gateways) while not needing to trust the exchange (gateway) that is trusted by their trading partner. If there is either a trust pathway between their respective gateways, or a conversion pathway through XRP, then the transaction can happen.

Not only is the exchange distributed, but you are not limited to the types of currencies supported by their gateway. With Bitcoin, you are limited by what your particular exchange supports. Just like you would trust a Bitcoin exchange to hold a certain amount of your fiat currency and cryptocoins, you would trust a Ripple gateway to do the same. You don't have to expose yourself by trusting unknown or untrusted gateways to use the system.

If you hold all of your Bitcoins yourself, and only pay directly without using an exchange, Ripple might not be for you. However, if you are comfortable trading on Bitcoin exchanges, you have already decided to trust and should be comfortable using Ripple. You just need to find a gateway that you trust. Bitstamp might be a good place to start, since you probably already have an opinion of it if you use Bitcoin.

[sublime5447]

Like I said we already have a distributed exchange where i can trust different entities.

See Trust: 19: -0 / +23(23)

[AmazonStuff]

Like I said we already have a distributed exchange where i can trust different entities.

See Trust: 19: -0 / +23(23)

Saying that Ripple network is a trust network is like saying that swiss knife is a bottle opener, it's better to say that bottle opening is one of it's features. Point is in p2p, as long as Bitcoin Exchanges are websites every single one of them could be closed very fast if bitcoin is declared illegal by some government. On the other hand, if exchanges are integrated into p2p network, just like it's done in Ripple network, it's really complicated for anyone to shut it down, just look at torrent network, it's still alive, every government in the world wants to close it, but no one has the tools for that job. Ripple is the best complementary tool for Bitcoin, if it succeed, it will make Bitcoin bulletproof.

[Sukrim]

Like I said we already have a distributed exchange where i can trust different entities.

See Trust: 19: -0 / +23(23)

a web of trust is maybe a part of a distributed exchange but not all of it. You don't have a balance for example, so you need to look for and set up trades manually + both partners need to be online at about the same time. Also transactions that involve more than one trade are even harder. Lastly, there is not even an order book.

If you use the web of trust here as a distributed exchange, you're gonna have a bad time. It's not even the point of the system here to be an exchange mechanism, it's used to detect fraud and reward people who could be trusted.
Look at my rating for example - I did only few trades here and way before this rating was introduced, so I have little to show even though I'm a part of this community for over 2 years already and traded more bitcoins than some newbies with high ratings.

Trust in ripple does not work like in this forum by the way, a typical user only ever needs to trust a single gateway.

[markm]

Both you people who claim to have trust are showing as Trust: 0: -0 / +0(0)  to me. So I dunno who trusts you but whoever it is apparently doesn't count from where I am sitting.

-MarkM-

[Sukrim]

I don't have any trust rating on this web forum, also probably you still have the default trust settings (meaning you have the same list as the admin here by default until you actively start trusting individuals).

Could we discuss the forum trust settings and ratings somewhere else please? As I said, they do not constitute a distributed exchange at all and have nothing to do with Ripple as well.

[yvv]

Like I said we already have a distributed exchange where i can trust different entities.

See Trust: 19: -0 / +23(23)

You mean bitcointalk.org? LMAO

1. It is not distributed.

2. It is not an exchange (it is a forum).

3. You can not trust anybody here, since it is full of scammers.

[tokeweed]

almost 6 months later...  nadda.

ripple users should get a community marketing drive going.

[Armis]

Please tweet my promo: "Free EMC2 Coins To Ripple Investors Who Buy EMC2 (promo ends October 14th)"

Again, Congratulations To Ripple and Cryptsy for striking a truly fantastic deal. 

I'm one of the community leaders at EMC2, in an effort to promote EMC2 to the Ripple (XRP) community I'm making the following offer to all owners of Ripple.

buy 100 - 999 EMC2 in a single transaction I will give you a bonus of 10 EMC2,
buy 1000 to 9999 EMC2 in a single transaction I will give you a bonus of 100 EMC2,
buy over 10K in a single transaction I will give you a bonus of 1000 EMC2,

Simply follow these instructions, send me a PM indicating a willingness to participate in the promotion, I will then give you a code to insert into your purchase order, for example if your target purchase is 450 EMC2, and your code was 2294, you then purchase 450.0002294 EMC2 so that I know it was you that made the purchase.  Then I send your  reward via Cryptsy transfer

This promo is limited to 10 people, one prize per username, and expires October 14th.



If anyone here should have an account with: https://xrptalk.org/forum/7-general-discussion/  please let them know of the promo

[gogxmagog]

Jack Ma (Alibaba) gave an interview a few months back and said he was investing in cryptos, but not bitcoin specifically. he said this around the same time as the announcement that some major banks would work with XRP. coincidence?

[Zer0Sum]

Jack Ma (Alibaba) gave an interview a few months back and said he was investing in cryptos, but not bitcoin specifically. he said this around the same time as the announcement that some major banks would work with XRP. coincidence?

You mean like the last time when they announce that they would work with a bank and while the price would go up, one of the XRP member dropped the premine on them ?
I don't see why we even talking about XRP its a centralized Money and not even a cryptocurrency.

Ya man, XRP has always been the Ultimate Dog...
You can't "invest" in it because of guaranteed premine dumping...
And you can't trade it because even after 18 months there is no significant liquidity.

What is Cryptsy thinking forming XRP "markets" with < $5,000/day in volume?
It's hard to take Cryptsy seriously when their USD trading after 4-5 months does < $10,000/day.

So Paul Vernon is sucking IRS dick... and paying 40 US employees for this?

Is this an NSA front... or the next Gox?

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/cryptocurrency-exchange-cryptsy-owner-paul-vernon-face-lawsuit/

[Sukrim]

And you can't trade it because even after 18 months there is no significant liquidity.

Most XRP are traded on Ripple, not outside of it. I don't know what you'd call "significant" though.

[yvv]

Ya man, XRP has always been the Ultimate Dog...
You can't "invest" in it because of guaranteed premine dumping...
And you can't trade it because even after 18 months there is no significant liquidity.

What is Cryptsy thinking forming XRP "markets" with < $5,000/day in volume?
It's hard to take Cryptsy seriously when their USD trading after 4-5 months does < $10,000/day.

So Paul Vernon is sucking IRS dick... and paying 40 US employees for this?

Is this an NSA front... or the next Gox?

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/cryptocurrency-exchange-cryptsy-owner-paul-vernon-face-lawsuit/

Current 24hr trade volume in ripple is $287923.72, and 85% of it is done with XRP

http://www.ripplecharts.com

XRP are bought outside of ripple only by those who want to fund new accounts.