[CLOSED] BitFury chip distribution, 0.27BTC/chip (W41 October delivery)

[darkfriend77]

I was just about to order, but yesterday Punin answered in BFSB thread.
We are going to offer new C-scape Shash board.
I've got some sample chips from Punin and I'll have working prototype next week.
All the pricing is ready expect the chip price.
Thank you for the efforts Zefir

can you link the post from punin ... in BFSB thread ...

[shade88]

We are going to offer new C-scape Shash board.

If I may ask, who's gonna offer new C-Scape S-Hash board? You or punin?

[bobsag3]

Update: Offer re-opened, unclear Pricing Policy

Discussed with BitFury team about pricing without satisfactory results. The whole sale and retail prices for chips will be fixed end of September, which makes in advance group-buys difficult or impossible.

Keeping the offer halted until those numbers are settled is one way to go, but this would leave interested buyers in uncertainty if and when you get your chips delivered. With what we learned from the Avalon DIY scene, this would not motivate many to jump in.

The other option is to offer a cut-off price clause as part of the contract like this:
If at shipping time the retail price for in-stock chips is significantly lower (that is: 20%+) than this offer, buyer can cancel the deal and get down-payment refunded in full.

The proposed 20% margin is to compensate for the lead time guarantee, i.e. I earn if I deliver first half of October and loose otherwise.


Those of you considering this offer: does this sound fair?

Would you say that your previous price for them would be a relative max? Like you dont see them being sold for more than that? If so you have me still as a buyer.

[marto74]

We are going to offer new C-scape Shash board.

If I may ask, who's gonna offer new C-Scape S-Hash board? You or punin?

Me

[zefir]

Would you say that your previous price for them would be a relative max? Like you dont see them being sold for more than that? If so you have me still as a buyer.

Yes, as the updated thread title indicates: 0.36 BTC per chip is the maximum price for delivery in week 41.

That's based on the anticipated competition with a price range of $10/GHps for November delivery. Consequently, $30 is what most potential buyers expect to see as new price. Alas, this will only be the case if at least one of the 28nm competitors has chips or rig to offer in volumes for immediate delivery. BitFury created a masterpiece 10x more energy efficient than anything else available and still as energy efficient as next-gen chips currently in design pipeline. Therefore, the price will be set to what chips are worth and not less - which is not set in stone to be as low as expected.

That's how my initial price point was set: $30 per chip at $100/BTC, plus 20% risk margin for late delivery.

In essence, the initial offer with the proposed addendum provides

• hedge against fiat/BTC fluctuations for those operating in BTC domain
• hedge against higher chip prices (if competition fails)
• hedge against lower chip prices (you bail out at no loss if you can get chips significantly cheaper elsewhere)

I personally think that this is the best offer you can get (I'm obviously biased ) - if you want to go with BitFury.

BTW: including you, so far I have 9 interested users for the total of 30 lots I have to offer.


Cheers

[Bicknellski]

Wish you and those who buy the best Zefir.

Question:

Are you going to using Burnin's reworked bitburner as your board or going with other available boards for yourself?

[Unacceptable]

Count me in for at least 50GH-500GH in chips,I have a few folks dying to get something going ASAP  

This is if this happens before my guys find someone else to by miners from  

Personally,I'm looking at Drillbit for boards,with any luck  

I have a few miners coming from them,just seeing if there are any delays................I hope its not another BFL/Avalon saga  

[zefir]

Wish you and those who buy the best Zefir.

Question:

Are you going to using Burnin's reworked bitburner as your board or going with other available boards for yourself?

I am not offering boards, only distributing chips, which also includes sending them to the manufacturer of your choice.

Those I keep for myself I will build into those boards that I'll find economically most viable. I have bitmine.ch right around the corner and might go with them. burnin is also an option. Furthermore, BitFury told me that a design optimized for higher performance per chip compared to c-scape's will be open sourced soon. So quite some options to chose from.

Count me in for at least 50GH-500GH in chips,I have a few folks dying to get something going ASAP 

[...]

Since 300 chips are somewhere between 800 and 900 GHps, you will need to stick with someone else to reach the lot size.

[Unacceptable]

Wish you and those who buy the best Zefir.

Question:

Are you going to using Burnin's reworked bitburner as your board or going with other available boards for yourself?

I am not offering boards, only distributing chips, which also includes sending them to the manufacturer of your choice.

Those I keep for myself I will build into those boards that I'll find economically most viable. I have bitmine.ch right around the corner and might go with them. burnin is also an option. Furthermore, BitFury told me that a design optimized for higher performance per chip compared to c-scape's will be open sourced soon. So quite some options to chose from.

Count me in for at least 50GH-500GH in chips,I have a few folks dying to get something going ASAP  

[...]

Since 300 chips are somewhere between 800 and 900 GHps, you will need to stick with someone else to reach the lot size.

Ok,I'll go with whatever you allow as a max per order.......I personally would prefer Drillbits or the like over KNC or Megabigpower systems,due to financial reasons........for all we know KNC or some others may actually show proof soon & may even deliver on time...I'm not holding my breath though  

[zefir]

Since 300 chips are somewhere between 800 and 900 GHps, you will need to stick with someone else to reach the lot size.

Ok,I'll go with whatever you allow as a max per order.......I personally would prefer Drillbits or the like over KNC or Megabigpower systems,due to financial reasons........for all we know KNC or some others may actually show proof soon & may even deliver on time...I'm not holding my breath though  

As soon as you make up your mind, please order following the process given in OP.

Hm, $300 for a 8-chip board is really a good offer - if it ships in October. KnC's Jupiters ordered today will cost even less ($12.5/GHps), but will ship in November. If today's difficulty increase rate remains, chips / rig loose 30% per two weeks, Drillbits boards delivered and operating end of October are a better deal than Jupiters operating mid November. If OTOH your rig is held back at customs for only 5 days, everything looks different - what a crazy business 

[Unacceptable]

Since 300 chips are somewhere between 800 and 900 GHps, you will need to stick with someone else to reach the lot size.

Ok,I'll go with whatever you allow as a max per order.......I personally would prefer Drillbits or the like over KNC or Megabigpower systems,due to financial reasons........for all we know KNC or some others may actually show proof soon & may even deliver on time...I'm not holding my breath though  

As soon as you make up your mind, please order following the process given in OP.

Hm, $300 for a 8-chip board is really a good offer - if it ships in October. KnC's Jupiters ordered today will cost even less ($12.5/GHps), but will ship in November. If today's difficulty increase rate remains, chips / rig loose 30% per two weeks, Drillbits boards delivered and operating end of October are a better deal than Jupiters operating mid November. If OTOH your rig is held back at customs for only 5 days, everything looks different - what a crazy business  

I emailed ya  

I personally don't like the 3 board design (chip board,backplane & raspi) its too complex,too many fail points & I'm sure it adds to the cost......or a case......keep it simple,a USB cable & an old fashioned ATX PSU & BFG or CGminer for me  

[GodHatesFigs]

So in accordance with the OP, if the difficulty increases by 100% after the shipping deadline, the chips will be free?

[zefir]

So in accordance with the OP, if the difficulty increases by 100% after the shipping deadline, the chips will be free?

Um, no. By 'proportionally' I understand X% as being a factor, i.e. if difficulty increases by 100%, you get the chips for 50% of their price; if it increases by 30%, you get them for 1/1.3 of that.

But now that you are bringing the issue up, I am not sure if the proportional price reduction is the correct formula either. What I want to offer is a fair compensation for the missed lower-difficulty cycle, i.e. for missed income due to late delivery. Now this number is not only depending on the difficulty cycles you miss, but obviously on later difficulty updates, which at any time are speculative. If you assume a constant difficulty increase of 25%, during the first difficulty cycle you make 1/4th of the chip / rig's lifetime mining income, so a 25% price reduction for missing the first difficulty cycle would in fact be a fair compensation. Alas, with continuous 50% difficulty increases, the number is 2/5 or 40%.

You know, all these factors that make mining profitability difficult to predict

But thanks for the input, I sure need to reword / clarify the clause.

[GodHatesFigs]

Yea, I expected that's what you meant - just wanted clarification

[zefir]

Update: Chip Prices for October Delivery set

Bulk prices for October chips has been set to 67'500€ / reel of 3000 chips. With that, I adapted my price to 0.27BTC / chip, which at a nominal 2.7GHps / chips matches 0.1BTC/GHps.

The OP has been updated accordingly, including a clarification on the lead time guarantee and availability.

[Dexter770221]

Update: Chip Prices for October Delivery set

Bulk prices for October chips has been set to 67'500€ / reel of 3000 chips. With that, I adapted my price to 0.27BTC / chip, which at a nominal 2.7GHps / chips matches 0.1BTC/GHps.

The OP has been updated accordingly, including a clarification on the lead time guarantee and availability.

Chips ship out within 24h (excluding weekends) after placing order starting from 20th of september. (We expect to ship first chips on that date).

We're getting plenty of chips starting 20th of september, so all of you planning on your own boards, go and order them now. The september chips have advantage over october chips in delivery time (they are more expensive).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3135476#msg3135476

[zefir]

Update: Chip Prices for October Delivery set

Bulk prices for October chips has been set to 67'500€ / reel of 3000 chips. With that, I adapted my price to 0.27BTC / chip, which at a nominal 2.7GHps / chips matches 0.1BTC/GHps.

The OP has been updated accordingly, including a clarification on the lead time guarantee and availability.

Chips ship out within 24h (excluding weekends) after placing order starting from 20th of september. (We expect to ship first chips on that date).

We're getting plenty of chips starting 20th of september, so all of you planning on your own boards, go and order them now. The september chips have advantage over october chips in delivery time (they are more expensive).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3135476#msg3135476

Hm, I don't quite understand where you want to point me to. If it is the September / October chips declaration, pricing and dates are unfortunately not as congruent and predictable as I'd like to have it to offer some reliable delivery.

Fact is, I am talking exactly about those chips being shipped last week of September. In my hands W40, in buyers' hands W41.


Or do I miss something else?

[Dexter770221]

Yes, you do miss something. Punin gets reels faster. At 20th Semptember. He decide to sell those reels ASAP charging 22k euros EXTRA. If those reels will get bought the October customers may wait longer for another batch of chips. I must say that I'm dissapointed about punin and his greed....
I have a proto board for bitfury chips but when I saw how things are done, I decided not to do any bussiness with them. Competition don't sleep and if they acting like that they will loose further clients even when chips will cost 2$.

EDIT:
Short story version:
We will have chips earlier but we will not send them to you becuse we are waiting for sucker that want to pay more...

Of course I have nothing to you zefir. You are just try to satisfy customer, but looking at current sitiuation you just my be burnt. Watch out.

[zefir]

Yes, you do miss something. Punin gets reels faster. At 20th Semptember. He decide to sell those reels ASAP charging 22k euros EXTRA. If those reels will get bought the October customers may wait longer for another batch of chips. I must say that I'm dissapointed about punin and his greed....
I have a proto board for bitfury chips but when I saw how things are done, I decided not to do any bussiness with them. Competition don't sleep and if they acting like that they will loose further clients even when chips will cost 2$.

EDIT:
Short story version:
We will have chips earlier but we will not send them to you becuse we are waiting for sucker that want to pay more...

This is not faster. If he gets them September 20th (end of W38), he can start distributing them W39. Where is he delaying here? It is nowhere written that October and September batches are delivered at the same time. Are you implying this?

As for the price: BitFury team has a very clear price policy: chips are sold for what they are worth. And they are worth what they could mine with them. So they are in a very comfortable position to set the price they see fit, and if nobody buys, just self-mine with them. That's what every other chip manufacturer does, no? If you developed your chip, already made back all your NRE, produce chips for $0.5 each, expect to mine $30 with each over the next 6 months - would you sell them for a profit of 400% or for 4000%? The answer is obvious. It also implies that buying chips from BitFury can only be profitable if their profitability calculations (they based the price point on) were too pessimistic.

While these are pure market forces, they leave almost no air to breath to the DIY scene. DIY can only compete by building cheaper boards than what is already available, which (as already pointed at in this thread) is really tough: bare chips at 22.5€/chip at one hand and a starter board with 16 chips for 390€ leaves a delta between chips and rig of 30€, which is hard to beat.


I never said this is a great offer or promoted this being better or worse than anything out there. I am only aware that most DIY folks won't be able to buy a whole reel and forwarding what is offered out there.

I know your disappointment is not directed at me but at BitFury directly, I just wanted to underline that I am neutral here and am in no way advocating anyone to buy unless he is well aware of the profitability aspects.


Thanks for the feedback.

[darkfriend77]

Yes, you do miss something. Punin gets reels faster. At 20th Semptember. He decide to sell those reels ASAP charging 22k euros EXTRA. If those reels will get bought the October customers may wait longer for another batch of chips. I must say that I'm dissapointed about punin and his greed....
I have a proto board for bitfury chips but when I saw how things are done, I decided not to do any bussiness with them. Competition don't sleep and if they acting like that they will loose further clients even when chips will cost 2$.

EDIT:
Short story version:
We will have chips earlier but we will not send them to you becuse we are waiting for sucker that want to pay more...

This is not faster. If he gets them September 20th (end of W38), he can start distributing them W39. Where is he delaying here? It is nowhere written that October and September batches are delivered at the same time. Are you implying this?

As for the price: BitFury team has a very clear price policy: chips are sold for what they are worth. And they are worth what they could mine with them. So they are in a very comfortable position to set the price they see fit, and if nobody buys, just self-mine with them. That's what every other chip manufacturer does, no? If you developed your chip, already made back all your NRE, produce chips for $0.5 each, expect to mine $30 with each over the next 6 months - would you sell them for a profit of 400% or for 4000%? The answer is obvious. It also implies that buying chips from BitFury can only be profitable if their profitability calculations (they based the price point on) were too pessimistic.

While these are pure market forces, they leave almost no air to breath to the DIY scene. DIY can only compete by building cheaper boards than what is already available, which (as already pointed at in this thread) is really tough: bare chips at 22.5€/chip at one hand and a starter board with 16 chips for 390€ leaves a delta between chips and rig of 30€, which is hard to beat.


I never said this is a great offer or promoted this being better or worse than anything out there. I am only aware that most DIY folks won't be able to buy a whole reel and forwarding what is offered out there.

I know your disappointment is not directed at me but at BitFury directly, I just wanted to underline that I am neutral here and am in no way advocating anyone to buy unless he is well aware of the profitability aspects.


Thanks for the feedback.

+ 1 ... nice summary of the actual bitfury chip situation ...