Need a PayPal refund for your BFL purchase?

[sergio]

I am having some bad luck with paypal.

My understanding from this post is that no sale has taken place because they have not shipped anything.
can someone send me that link that a sale takes place only when an item gets shipped, I remember seeing it somewhere on the forum.


But Paypal is insisting that the 45 day rule applies.

What are the contacts in paypal that I can call ?
That Marcus guy never replied to my email.

Any advice in how to handle this though the bank.?
It was a debit card linked to my paypal account.

Any methods that work for getting BFL refunds.

Finally I have to say PayPal sucks, BLF is an obious scam and they do nothing about.

Thanks

[americandesi]

I applied and got my refund on Sep-14th. I was among the first few to get the refund.
Thanks to OP.

However, even after almost 2 months, i received an email from BFL that they shipped my Jala today.
Has anyone else gone through this problem.?

Will they be able to charge me again or file a exception with paypal for my refund and claim that i be charged for their product.?
Any suggestion / help will be appreciated.

Thanks,

[cp1]

If the dispute hasn't been closed/finalized then they could use your acceptance of the package to nullify your dispute.

[americandesi]

If the dispute hasn't been closed/finalized then they could use your acceptance of the package to nullify your dispute.

Thanks for your reply. It has been closed. As i said, i received the refund within 16 hours of sending the email to paypal on Sep-14th.
Everything was paid using my CC though paypal.
I even withdrew that amount to my bank account over a month ago.

Am now concerned that they might show the shipping confirmation to paypal now and advise paypal to charge my card again (my card / bank account is on file with paypal) for the amount of jala.

Can they do that without my authorization.?

[jelin1984]

I have from bfl labs tracking number does not work
Have anyone have the same with me?

[cp1]

Am now concerned that they might show the shipping confirmation to paypal now and advise paypal to charge my card again (my card / bank account is on file with paypal) for the amount of jala.

Can they do that without my authorization.?

No, if the dispute is finished then there is nothing they can do.  They can't just ship people stuff they don't want and then charge them for it.

[DrG]

Am now concerned that they might show the shipping confirmation to paypal now and advise paypal to charge my card again (my card / bank account is on file with paypal) for the amount of jala.

Can they do that without my authorization.?

No, if the dispute is finished then there is nothing they can do.  They can't just ship people stuff they don't want and then charge them for it.

What they can't do legally and what occurs in reality seem far removed from each other these days.  Unless you want to deal with 25 phone calls telling BFL not to send you to collections for their mistake, just refuse the package and have it returned to shipper.

It took me a week to get them to respond to an RMA on a day 1 Single - how much time you think it would take to deal with them if you kept it?  (I would wager closer to weeks or even months).

[americandesi]

Am now concerned that they might show the shipping confirmation to paypal now and advise paypal to charge my card again (my card / bank account is on file with paypal) for the amount of jala.

Can they do that without my authorization.?

No, if the dispute is finished then there is nothing they can do.  They can't just ship people stuff they don't want and then charge them for it.

What they can't do legally and what occurs in reality seem far removed from each other these days.  Unless you want to deal with 25 phone calls telling BFL not to send you to collections for their mistake, just refuse the package and have it returned to shipper.

It took me a week to get them to respond to an RMA on a day 1 Single - how much time you think it would take to deal with them if you kept it?  (I would wager closer to weeks or even months).

Agreed. I don't have any intentions of keeping it. That is the reason i wanted some advise on how to handle it / send it back.
I already have close to 200 GH of hashing power and i don't think that this extra 7 gh/s wouldn't make much of a difference.

I would rather reject it than keep it and deal with them.

[southerngentuk]

This is easy for International customers.

The customs form ask's for the value of the Item. BFL will state the purchase price, this is no longer the value of the item. A lie.

Sorry mister customs officer, the value on the item is incorrect, I am not paying that, Please return to sender.

[jpmi1]

add another to the list of refunds!  just got this today!  created the paypal refund request on Oct 4, 2013, and got the refund Oct 16, 2013.  will be sending a tip to OP.  to those who want a refund through paypal this is how i got mine.

1. enter a dispute online
2. after it gets rejected for the "out of 45 day" time period
3. log into your paypal acct and go to resolution center and write down your case (change the view to all cases)
4. click contact us at the bottom of page
5. click call us on the right side of the page (should give you a phone number (probably 888-221-1161) with a one-time code
6. call it and enter your code when it asks you
7. say case resolution
8. say no (to ebay purchase)
9. say existing
10. say yes and enter the dispute/claim ID.
11. when they give you the status of the claim say agent.
12. when the agent comes on the line tell him the deal with BFL (fraud, pre-orders, wont let you cancel pre-order, wont refund, cant give you a date when your item will ship, etc).  tell them to look at this company's history of complaints and refunds from paypal.  ask them to process a refund.  they issued me a new case ID for this.
13. wait the 10 days and when BFL doesnt respond to them (cause they wont) call paypal back and go through the same deal as above and get an agent on the line.
14. they will review and close the case and refund you.


*************************************************************************************************
We have completed our investigation for the following claim:
 
Transaction Details
------------------------------
Seller's Name: BF Labs Inc.
Seller's Email: office@butterflylabs.com Seller's Transaction ID: 3GGxxxxxxxxxxx933

Transaction Date: Mar 4, 2013
Transaction Amount: -$683.00 USD
Invoice ID: 100019393
Your Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
Case Number: PP-002-xxx-xxx-xx1

Buyer's Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
------------------------------
 
We have decided this case in your favor and you will receive a full refund in your PayPal account within the next 3-5 days.
*************************************************************************************************

I currently am in the process of doing this.

[ionstorm]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

UPDATE:
Civil complaint filed and accepted in my home state in Pennsylvania, also the Pennsylvania Attorney General is investigating, I'd be interested in accepting any Affidavit's or if anyone would like to be a witness PM me.  Being a witness would be better since affidavit's may not be admissible because they could be classified as hearsay.  So if you live close, let me know.  Also any advice or support would be appreciated.  Any small win here is a good thing, if I can get a Judgement against them others may take it as an example for their own cases.

Good job man, the second BF Labs stopped issuing FULL refunds when they were lawfully requested they crossed a line they will likely regret.  We need more people like you to stand up to them.  This wanna be libertarian crowd here seems intent to just let the BFL's and TH's of the world do whatever the fuck they want whenever the fuck they want without consequence.  There is also a number of people here who will say all kinds of crazy things when it comes to the law surrounding this stuff.  All I will say is BF Labs is selling a retail product on the internet and retail sales/sales contracts, consumer protection, mail order (internet selling) have been around for many many years and the laws surrounding them are old and well tested.  The libertarian crowd here seems to thing some wild things about these laws and for some reason seem to think that the business model used by ASIC manufactures to date is normal.  IT IS NOT, the real world doesn't operate like this for a reason (a very good reason) and it's called the law...  It won't be much longer before one or more of these companies find this out, with more Joe six packs jumping on the BTC train everyday, these antics will be long gone and we will all have found memories of the jokes we call manufacture's today.

Hey guys, Please check out this web form and if you have a few minutes, please fill it out with your experiences with Butterfly Labs Inc, it will be forwarded to the Pennsylvania Attorney General as well as admitted as evidence in my case: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZRH841TzAhv8Bu7pcEW8id3UMAsO5iDvxUgw0LqZA0k/viewform

I'll be providing updates as the case moves forward.
Thank you

[BKM]

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

[lajz99]

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

Awesome, glad you got your $ back!

[Bicknellski]

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

Might they not give a shit about you or anyone else they sold to because they are sociopaths?

Code:

so·ci·o·path

noun

1. a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

[BKM]

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

Hmmmmm - things are not always what they seem:

no refund and I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand

Here is a little cautionary tale about chargebacks and the lesson learned:

I ordered a total of 12 Single SC 60's in March of 2013.

Waited, waited.... watched and waited. Due to the opacity of the approach of reporting shipments by paid date, my general discontent and getting caught up in the charegback wave of August / September I actively pursued charging back my orders which were made via PayPal and funded by American Express. I think PayPal ran out of BFL holdback funds so that was a dead end and they suggested I try Amex one more time. I did and to my great surprise they accepted the dispute even though it had passed the 90 day cut off. I thought they were doing a great favour and that I would be sure to "win" because of all the issues...... What they failed to mention is that they had no recourse to the merchant after 90 days and that their role would only be that of an intermediary in the process of communicating with BFL. The disputed charges were accepted on September 25th.

BFL shipped my first order of one miner on October 11th. Ten more miners were shipped Fedex overnight 6 days later and the last one was shipped not long after. In consultation with Amex I refused the orders. In the end, all 12 miners were refused and returned to BFL. On December 6th it was finally confirmed that nothing was going to come of the charegeback (of course) and that I was fully and completed F'd. There were many situations where Amex could have cleared the air - at one point they even stated that the chargeback was awarded in my favour because the merchant (BFL) had not contacted them in the 8 weeks since the dispute was accepted. I was happy at that point that it was finally concluded. Three days later I learned in a follow up call that, no, the matter was not concluded at all.

In the end I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand trying to sort out what I owe them for additional shipping and just move on. Clearly this whole escapade has cost me dearly. The tale is not one that will apply anymore to most people as BFL long ago stopped accepting PayPal and credit cards etc. Nevertheless, I thought it might be good information to anyone else who is pending a decision from their credit card company regarding a chargeback. The 90 day cutoff is not some arbitrary limit - the company has no way to collect your money. Move on - take your gear and start mining. Tomorrow will be a better day.

In conclusion, I maintain that I made the best decision I could at the time with the information I had. If Amex had been more transparent in its process then the outcome would have been very different. Whatever the case I am making good with BFL and working to secure my miners as fast as I can. Thanks BFL_Emily for your support in this process......

No rear view mirrors in Bitcoin land..... petal to the metal. ┗(°0°)┛

[lajz99]

Damn, sorry to hear that man...   

[Searing]

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

Hmmmmm - things are not always what they seem:

no refund and I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand

Here is a little cautionary tale about chargebacks and the lesson learned:

I ordered a total of 12 Single SC 60's in March of 2013.

Waited, waited.... watched and waited. Due to the opacity of the approach of reporting shipments by paid date, my general discontent and getting caught up in the charegback wave of August / September I actively pursued charging back my orders which were made via PayPal and funded by American Express. I think PayPal ran out of BFL holdback funds so that was a dead end and they suggested I try Amex one more time. I did and to my great surprise they accepted the dispute even though it had passed the 90 day cut off. I thought they were doing a great favour and that I would be sure to "win" because of all the issues...... What they failed to mention is that they had no recourse to the merchant after 90 days and that their role would only be that of an intermediary in the process of communicating with BFL. The disputed charges were accepted on September 25th.

BFL shipped my first order of one miner on October 11th. Ten more miners were shipped Fedex overnight 6 days later and the last one was shipped not long after. In consultation with Amex I refused the orders. In the end, all 12 miners were refused and returned to BFL. On December 6th it was finally confirmed that nothing was going to come of the charegeback (of course) and that I was fully and completed F'd. There were many situations where Amex could have cleared the air - at one point they even stated that the chargeback was awarded in my favour because the merchant (BFL) had not contacted them in the 8 weeks since the dispute was accepted. I was happy at that point that it was finally concluded. Three days later I learned in a follow up call that, no, the matter was not concluded at all.

In the end I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand trying to sort out what I owe them for additional shipping and just move on. Clearly this whole escapade has cost me dearly. The tale is not one that will apply anymore to most people as BFL long ago stopped accepting PayPal and credit cards etc. Nevertheless, I thought it might be good information to anyone else who is pending a decision from their credit card company regarding a chargeback. The 90 day cutoff is not some arbitrary limit - the company has no way to collect your money. Move on - take your gear and start mining. Tomorrow will be a better day.

In conclusion, I maintain that I made the best decision I could at the time with the information I had. If Amex had been more transparent in its process then the outcome would have been very different. Whatever the case I am making good with BFL and working to secure my miners as fast as I can. Thanks BFL_Emily for your support in this process......

No rear view mirrors in Bitcoin land..... petal to the metal. ┗(°0°)┛

Yeah sorry to hear about your problems...if it is any consolation I did the "forced upgrade" to a monarchs route ...have 900gh supposedly coming in Jan/Feb (yeah right) so at 8k in BFL it likely would not have mattered anyway imho.....I'm also gonna be in your boat soon we can bail $$$ into the Sea together......I doubt that BFL will get anything out to me before middle of March at the earliest (I was an early monarch order) and when the stuff does arrive (the 300gh a bit later I imagine) it will likely be 400gh in reality instead of 600gh monarch and too little too late..with the usual BFL 'it is not our fault and your risk" arguments....

so don't feel too bad a brick "now" or a brick "later" I'll meet you in the same rowboat soon enough imho

not sure if this helps but from past BFL issues it is likely correct

Searing

[BKM]

Yeah sorry to hear about your problems...if it is any consolation I did the "forced upgrade" to a monarchs route ...have 900gh supposedly coming in Jan/Feb (yeah right) so at 8k in BFL it likely would not have mattered anyway imho.....I'm also gonna be in your boat soon we can bail $$$ into the Sea together......I doubt that BFL will get anything out to me before middle of March at the earliest (I was an early monarch order) and when the stuff does arrive (the 300gh a bit later I imagine) it will likely be 400gh in reality instead of 600gh monarch and too little too late..with the usual BFL 'it is not our fault and your risk" arguments....

so don't feel too bad a brick "now" or a brick "later" I'll meet you in the same rowboat soon enough imho

not sure if this helps but from past BFL issues it is likely correct

Searing

I'm going to get delivery asap and start mining and ebay them. Seems people are out of their mind for gear on ebay so who am I to argue. I guess it will be me who is going to have to deal with the whole chargeback issue perhaps..... my how the worm turns.

[lajz99]

Yeah sorry to hear about your problems...if it is any consolation I did the "forced upgrade" to a monarchs route ...have 900gh supposedly coming in Jan/Feb (yeah right) so at 8k in BFL it likely would not have mattered anyway imho.....I'm also gonna be in your boat soon we can bail $$$ into the Sea together......I doubt that BFL will get anything out to me before middle of March at the earliest (I was an early monarch order) and when the stuff does arrive (the 300gh a bit later I imagine) it will likely be 400gh in reality instead of 600gh monarch and too little too late..with the usual BFL 'it is not our fault and your risk" arguments....

so don't feel too bad a brick "now" or a brick "later" I'll meet you in the same rowboat soon enough imho

not sure if this helps but from past BFL issues it is likely correct

Searing

I'm going to get delivery asap and start mining and ebay them. Seems people are out of their mind for gear on ebay so who am I to argue. I guess it will be me who is going to have to deal with the whole chargeback issue perhaps..... my how the worm turns.

Yea man, you'll get good $ on ebay.  I haven't had any chargebacks on 30+ transactions on USB's...

I'd take one off your hands but you're better off on ebay.   

[lajz99]

Email TigerDirect and let them know what you think about their partnership with Butterfly Labs!!

http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/Help/email.asp


If anyone has a great email they put together please feel free to post for others to use!