YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[pontiacg5]

I believe paypal sneakily interjected a forced arbitration into the TOS a while back

Please always remember that what's written in a contract is not automatically legal.

Oh, I know that but our wonderful government is upholding these mandatory arbitration clauses everywhere.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/consumers-get-screwed-scotus-american-express-decision-small-biz

Still doesn't keep companies like apple from putting all sorts of illegal (and non-binding) things in their TOS or license agreements. I'm sure paypal even has a few you could play with if you had the legal capital.

[ionstorm]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

[Syke]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

Post a successful court decision and I'll send you a bitcoin donation!

[southerngentuk]

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

Shame we don't have more time. A petition from all who where denied a refund from BFL would have been nice to take into court with you.

If someone could draft something up we could get a quick wip round and drum up a small list.

If anyone could knock up a good webform please do so (am not so good with things like that).

Ionstorm, if someone does this would you be prepared to print it and add it to your evidence ?

Regards

Heat is on Joshie 

[DrG]

After months of trying to cancel my order for 4 Singles (ordered early March 2013) I tried the Paypal route but was denied due to being past the 45 period.  So I filed a chargeback with my credit card.  I did receive a conditional credit back for the original purchase.

BFL still shipped the singles 2 weeks after the chargeback and unfortunately my dad signed for it (I was out of town).  I spoke to my credit card processor who will be asking for an RMA address from BFL since I don't want to ship the singles back to some random address (where I RMAed a Day 1 single that died after 1 week).

I did get the telemarketing call last week but I was polite and didn't yell.  They were of no help getting a refund of course.

I'll see where this goes.  I just finished up a legal malpractice case (I was the plaintiff) so if BFL refuses to cooperate I will see them in court.

How a company can ship something 2 weeks after a credit card processor tries to contact you regarding a refund/chargeback is beyond me.  Left hand, meet right hand 

[th3joker]

I have four orders in with BFL, they refused to refund me.

After they placed my orders on hold for no good reason other than I requested a refund, I completed a credit card chargeback for one of them.

I've emailed BFL to see if they will willingly refund the other three but they've ignored all subsequent correspondence so I'm instigating a second chargeback and will follow that with chargebacks for the rest.

Luckily I did them all separately which means BFL will have to pay a fee for each one out of their own pocket. I know it's childish but it is a little bit satisfying knowing that I'm costing them money too now.

[BuckNaked]

PayPal refused me a refund, usual 45 days rubbish, I did a chargeback for my first order and the credit card company put the money straight back into my account within about 5 days.

5 November 2013

I also did a chargeback through my bank some weeks back.  I would like to toss in the following additional info:

-- The bank immediately credited my account, but they made it clear that this was a courtesy and that the credit is not final until the accused seller responds.  In my case, they could take as long as two billing periods to respond.

-- When I went to Paypal two weeks later and checked the case status (cases were automatically opened when the chargeback occurred), the Paypal status showed "In review."

In other words, it may look like I have got the money but it is not official, Paypal is sitting on their hands "reviewing" the case, and it could be as long as two months until I know if I really have my money back.

In other world news (film at 11):

I also filed complaints with the FTC, the Kansas City BBB, the Kansas Attorney General's office, and the Johnson County District Attorney.  No response on any of those yet.

I have been down the small claims court path in the past, and my own experience is that it is much easier to sue the credit card company under FTC "claims and defenses" than it is to sue the seller.  In this case it is not clear to me whether the seller is Paypal or BFL, since the credit card transaction was paid to Paypal and not BFL.  Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge can clear that up.

If the seller is Paypal, they have legal staff who do their utmost to avoid paying (though there is a wealth of info about how to sue Paypal and win; google it).

If the seller is BFL, collecting on the judgement could be extremely difficult, since the judgement would have to be exported to Kansas and sent to collections there -- and it is not clear that BFL has a financial leg to file a lien against.

If you have to sue your credit card company or Paypal, never sign a "general release."  This frees them from any obligations to you whether past, present or future.  Tell them you will sign a specific release.  And don't sign any confidentiality agreements.  If you win a judgement, you are in the right and they must pay, and cannot put conditions on that payment.

Update 7 Nov 2013

The Paypal status on the chargebacks changed from "In review" to "Closed."  There was no direct indication of whether it was closed by accepting or rejecting the chargeback.  After clicking around a bit, clicking on the "Closed" status produced "There was insufficient evidence to dispute the chargeback", which I take to mean "He's right but we don't like to admit it."

I can imagine the happiness at Paypal HQ when it becomes general knowledge among BFL customers that Paypal actually is eating BFL chargebacks.  Then the chargebacks will really start rolling in.  It would be interesting to know how Paypal will try to get that money back from BFL.  Well, better them doing it than me.

Addendum:  I just checked the order status at BFL, and both of them show "canceled." (sic).  So they do actually know the word, even if they can't spell it.

[Syke]

and it is not clear that BFL has a financial leg to file a lien against.

No need to worry about that. Josh loves to gloat about how they're raking in the dough.

[southerngentuk]

Cross post from Terahash thread as its relevant here

Well, I just had an interesting discussion with my Chase Visa regarding something I was disputing that I bought last January.
It was a similar situation as TH of non delivery of a product.
The lady said that they have 118 days (maybe 120, it was hard to understand sometimes) to dispute transaction.
BUT!
Those days start from the day you are supposed to receive the item!
So in my case I bought in January of 2013
On August 8th I got a reply to my ticket saying the item will ship.
Dead silence since then.
She started count of 118 days from August 8th + 1 week for shipping.

So I was just issued a credit a few minutes ago without any problems.

Now I just wish I paid TH with a CC and not a wire.

[th3joker]

The debacle that is BFL continues.

BFL put my orders on hold because we requested a refund when August delivery had slipped until November. We got a shirty message back with some lies in about local legislation.

They then refused to answer any further emails, surprise, surprise. So our orders are "on hold" meaning they aren't shipping and they aren't sending our money back either, sound familiar anyone?

I informed BFL that I would be initiating a chargeback for the first order if they didn't respond and let me know why the orders where now also on hold. No answer of course so I requested a chargeback from my credit card company. Took just a few days to get the money back.

After asking if they'll be shipping the other orders, no reply, again no surprises. I send off my second chargeback to my credit card company. Which will of course be coming back just shortly.

In the meantime PayPal have been in touch about the other orders and BFL have told them that they will be shipping them and providing tracking which is bullshit as the orders are still sat "on hold". Lying to Paypal will really help their case, especially since I've just emailed through screenshots proving them liars. I'd imagine Paypal are sick and tired of dealing with BFL and its no surprise that they no longer provide a service for BFL.

I've been pretty reasonable with them, other than asking for a refund and telling them what action I'll be taking should they choose to ignore reasonable requests for either a refund or shipment. Guess what I got no further responses after the refund refusal email!!

[Fjordbit]

Except... none of it ever happened.  Cool story, though, bro!

Josh, be careful where you tread. I've warned you once before about spouting off to the wrong people. I am not PuertoLibre or some other BFL troll. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with your company and have a solid BitcoinTalk reputation. I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so. On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

So watch your fucking "facts" when you attempt to call either me or my friend a liar. The fact of the matter is that I coached 1 family member and 4 friends into buying machines of different sizes from your company and on September 19th sent them an email saying to cancel their orders because we were crossing the point of no return on investment. The family member received their miners early enough to sell them for a good profit. Of the friends, one had no problems at all cancelling, one had a problem where after several weeks of harassing Paypal finally had the reversal approved, only to have the account Paypal was drawing on as empty, and the other two have not been able to get a refund, although they haven't been particularly aggressive with paypal either. As such, two of my friends had some amount of dollars sewn up with your company in an interest free loan for some time, and two of them are going to take a large loss, one of them at a time in his life where he really needs a win.

And I hold you responsible due to the complete and utter fabrications called timelines you've delivered to us in the past 17 months. In your quest to dominate the market, you have sucker punched people who are now literally homeless, causing fights between their spouse and them, and adding astounding stress to their lives. And so, I understand that you can easily sit there and type complete lies that ruin people, and as such you think it must be easy for everyone else to just lie.

But I'll tell you now, Josh, I'm no liar. My friend who had this bounced paypal issue is no liar. So, I would get your "cool story" straight before you respond to me again.

[BKM]

Except... none of it ever happened.  Cool story, though, bro!

Josh, be careful where you tread. I've warned you once before about spouting off to the wrong people. I am not PuertoLibre or some other BFL troll. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with your company and have a solid BitcoinTalk reputation. I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so. On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

So watch your fucking "facts" when you attempt to call either me or my friend a liar. The fact of the matter is that I coached 1 family member and 4 friends into buying machines of different sizes from your company and on September 19th sent them an email saying to cancel their orders because we were crossing the point of no return on investment. The family member received their miners early enough to sell them for a good profit. Of the friends, one had no problems at all cancelling, one had a problem where after several weeks of harassing Paypal finally had the reversal approved, only to have the account Paypal was drawing on as empty, and the other two have not been able to get a refund, although they haven't been particularly aggressive with paypal either. As such, two of my friends had some amount of dollars sewn up with your company in an interest free loan for some time, and two of them are going to take a large loss, one of them at a time in his life where he really needs a win.

And I hold you responsible due to the complete and utter fabrications called timelines you've delivered to us in the past 17 months. In your quest to dominate the market, you have sucker punched people who are now literally homeless, causing fights between their spouse and them, and adding astounding stress to their lives. And so, I understand that you can easily sit there and type complete lies that ruin people, and as such you think it must be easy for everyone else to just lie.

But I'll tell you now, Josh, I'm no liar. My friend who had this bounced paypal issue is no liar. So, I would get your "cool story" straight before you respond to me again.

SNAP!

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

Let's play jeopardy.

A:  This guy.

Q:  Who in the world would be stupid enough to be burned by BFL twice?

[sushi]

Greedy Old Men...

[LostDutchman]

Greedy Old Men...

Or greedy young dweebs who have no idea how the world really works.

My $.02.

[Mattster28]

On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

Let's play jeopardy.

A:  This guy.

Q:  Who in the world would be stupid enough to be burned by BFL twice?

Oh my. Twice? Guessing you must have ordered a Monarch.

[Unacceptable]

Except... none of it ever happened.  Cool story, though, bro!

Josh, be careful where you tread. I've warned you once before about spouting off to the wrong people. I am not PuertoLibre or some other BFL troll. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with your company and have a solid BitcoinTalk reputation. I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so. On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

So watch your fucking "facts" when you attempt to call either me or my friend a liar. The fact of the matter is that I coached 1 family member and 4 friends into buying machines of different sizes from your company and on September 19th sent them an email saying to cancel their orders because we were crossing the point of no return on investment. The family member received their miners early enough to sell them for a good profit. Of the friends, one had no problems at all cancelling, one had a problem where after several weeks of harassing Paypal finally had the reversal approved, only to have the account Paypal was drawing on as empty, and the other two have not been able to get a refund, although they haven't been particularly aggressive with paypal either. As such, two of my friends had some amount of dollars sewn up with your company in an interest free loan for some time, and two of them are going to take a large loss, one of them at a time in his life where he really needs a win.

And I hold you responsible due to the complete and utter fabrications called timelines you've delivered to us in the past 17 months. In your quest to dominate the market, you have sucker punched people who are now literally homeless, causing fights between their spouse and them, and adding astounding stress to their lives. And so, I understand that you can easily sit there and type complete lies that ruin people, and as such you think it must be easy for everyone else to just lie.

But I'll tell you now, Josh, I'm no liar. My friend who had this bounced paypal issue is no liar. So, I would get your "cool story" straight before you respond to me again.

You would actually "consider" buying from BFL    After already being a "customer"     You deserve whatever loses you incur 

[Bicknellski]

Except... none of it ever happened.  Cool story, though, bro!

Josh, be careful where you tread. I've warned you once before about spouting off to the wrong people. I am not PuertoLibre or some other BFL troll. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with your company and have a solid BitcoinTalk reputation. I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so. On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

So watch your fucking "facts" when you attempt to call either me or my friend a liar. The fact of the matter is that I coached 1 family member and 4 friends into buying machines of different sizes from your company and on September 19th sent them an email saying to cancel their orders because we were crossing the point of no return on investment. The family member received their miners early enough to sell them for a good profit. Of the friends, one had no problems at all cancelling, one had a problem where after several weeks of harassing Paypal finally had the reversal approved, only to have the account Paypal was drawing on as empty, and the other two have not been able to get a refund, although they haven't been particularly aggressive with paypal either. As such, two of my friends had some amount of dollars sewn up with your company in an interest free loan for some time, and two of them are going to take a large loss, one of them at a time in his life where he really needs a win.

And I hold you responsible due to the complete and utter fabrications called timelines you've delivered to us in the past 17 months. In your quest to dominate the market, you have sucker punched people who are now literally homeless, causing fights between their spouse and them, and adding astounding stress to their lives. And so, I understand that you can easily sit there and type complete lies that ruin people, and as such you think it must be easy for everyone else to just lie.

But I'll tell you now, Josh, I'm no liar. My friend who had this bounced paypal issue is no liar. So, I would get your "cool story" straight before you respond to me again.

You would actually "consider" buying from BFL    After already being a "customer"     You deserve whatever loses you incur 

Yup if you haven't learned yet...

[Fjordbit]

Reading comprehension, morans.

I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so

if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

(emphasis added)

I've made a lot of fiat money from BFL and if they deliver monarch and it has a superior hps/$ value to other offerings and I see that the queue is fulfilling well then yeah, I'll buy it. However, at this point in time it is clear to me that BFL has serious engineering gaps and for all I know are bleeding cash directly into Chapter 7 so no I am not going to put my money into a pie in the sky offering. When ASICs were first announced, the bump in hps/$ (4,000%) justified the risk of investment, a risk that paid off huge for me. The move from 65nm to 28nm isn't even a 278% boost. I've made more than that holding coins in the last month.

[th3joker]

Got a full refund for everything finally, don't know why they couldn't have just done it in the first place and saved us all a load of hassle!!