US Dollar maybe shit aug 2nd GO BITCOIN watch video

[SpaceLord]

If your goal is fiscal responsibility, the sane thing to do is to pay your bills on time. If you don't, your interest rate goes up, and you're in much worse shape than before. If we don't raise the ceiling, the trillions we owe will go up, fast and hard.

[1714060175]

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[gnaget]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually - it was inevitable once your treasury issued $1 and demanded more than that $1 back (interest).  It's the world's largest ponzi scheme - making new money to pay interest on the old.   But I agree with Timm that a deal will be reached last minute that will raise the debt limit.

An excellent movie explaining this is here:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/

http://www.businessinsider.com/everything-is-a-ponzi-scheme-2011-6

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

[TrainDeluxe]

No, USA will not go bankrupt. Not that soon. Its too early. For now the negotiations are a politcal theater. But keep in mind that China has huge amouns of $$$. If US goes fucked NOW they lose all that value. Chineese are not that stupid to allow that. In worst case they will buy US debt.

[Timo Y]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually

I don't think it must.  The US has one of the lowest tax rates of all developed countries. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

If the US increased general taxation from 25% of GPD to approx 50% of GPD, then it could pay back its public debt in less than 3 years.

The debt problem in the US is political more than economic.

[Mageant]

My prediction is there will be a compromised agreement at the last minute, with grandiose claims made by both sides, while the Fed continues to extend the issuance of debt through non-publicized means.

I agree. The "last minute" compromise will be celebrated as a victory and great achievement.

[JeffK]

What about asking the rich to pay more in taxes isn't fair?

The rich need and utilize resources like roads for transportation, unemployment/welfare for support of their economically disadvantaged, and police departments to protect their property (which, due to the larger size/amount of their property, requires more police resources to protect).

The benefit more from these resources than other taxpayers (e.g., middle class taxpayer who pays low amount of taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel, rich person who pays taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel PLUS the added advantage of having smooth roads for his employees to drive on, making them more productive).

Yes, every year, the rich push for lower and lower taxes, making false claims that everyone derives the same benefit from infrastructure, and thus should pay nearer to the same amount for them.

Asking the rich to pay more is fair, because when they derive the most benefit from social services yet ask that those who have less money and derive less benefit from them pay more of the portion, we must borrow to fill in the 'gaps'

How does Warren Buffet fit into your view on why people should pay unequal percentages.  Since he was your example of a rich person that is not paying his fair share.  He lives in a normal house and has a regular car ect ect ... your example of why makes no sense.  If I had 1000 cars I could not drive them all at the same time...how would I be using the infrastructure more  than anyone else. Also I would still have to pay taxes on every car and title so on.. Your argument about  being responsible for the roads of employees is stretching it and if anything it should be considered on corporate tax (your mixing the two).

If you make people responsible for everyone else there is no limit to what you can say they owe.  Perhaps employee's should be issued vehicles to get to work .. A nice alarm clock and a top of the line mattress to be sure they are well rested...

Buffet is a huge advocate for higher taxes on the wealthy, but since he doubts that will happen has teamed up with Bill Gates to convince other billionaires to give most of their wealth to charity - I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

[JeffK]

No, USA will not go bankrupt. Not that soon. Its too early. For now the negotiations are a politcal theater. But keep in mind that China has huge amouns of $$$. If US goes fucked NOW they lose all that value. Chineese are not that stupid to allow that. In worst case they will buy US debt.

Everyone who said this is all political theater and the limit will be raised is 100% correct.

also, here is a pie chart of who owns/is buying US debt, China is less than you'd think:



edit: oops, that chart is out of date, but the ratios are still close to the same

[Vod]

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

Just because everything is not a Ponzi scheme, does not mean the US economy isn't.  A Ponzi scheme uses new money to pay off old debts - that is what the US treasury does.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  For each billion dollars the treasury makes (the only source of money), it asks for 1.x billion back, with x being the interest rate.  Where does that x money come from?  By making more money and widening the gap.

Yes, the US will eventually go bankrupt - it is an absolute mathematical inevitability.  It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

[joulesbeef]

actually our taxes are 14.4% of our gdp currently. That wiki uses old data.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows. 

dont know where you got that info.. so you want to claim we didnt have a surplus in 2000 and that everyone is lying but right wing sites? You want to claim we didnt have a projected surplus of 5 trillion over ten years? want to claim the republican lead cbo ddnt complain that the bush tax cuts destroyed 1/2 of that? or do you want to claim it was all dot com when our economy has grown by 40% since 2000?

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

this is the only thing I can come close to agreeing with, right now interest is our 3rd biggest payment and if we didnt address the debt, it very well can rise higher than our gnp. It is actually predicted to be our biggest payment within 10 years. But anyone who tells you we cant pay off our debt ever, or that their isnt enough money in the us to do so, is blowing smoke up your asss and hopes you have a memory that doesnt go back to 2000

[Vod]

actually our taxes are 14.4% of our gdp currently. That wiki uses old data.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  

dont know where you got that info.. so you want to claim we didnt have a surplus in 2000 and that everyone is lying but right wing sites? You want to claim we didnt have a projected surplus of 5 trillion over ten years? want to claim the republican lead cbo ddnt complain that the bush tax cuts destroyed 1/2 of that? or do you want to claim it was all dot com when our economy has grown by 40% since 2000?

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

this is the only thing I can come close to agreeing with, right now interest is our 3rd biggest payment and if we didnt address the debt, it very well can rise higher than our gnp. It is actually predicted to be our biggest payment within 10 years. But anyone who tells you we cant pay off our debt ever, or that their isnt enough money in the us to do so, is blowing smoke up your asss and hopes you have a memory that doesnt go back to 2000

Having a surplus means you took in more money than you spent during the single reporting period.  If the economy grows by 40%, it's in part to the treasury printing more money and lending it out with interest.  Very simply, if I have the only dollar in the world, and I give it to you and ask for $1.10 back, there is not enough money in the world to pay off what you owe.

Don't believe me - go read any financial website on FIAT currencies, or watch the movie I recommended at the start of the thread.  All the sources are listed.

[FlipPro]

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

Just because everything is not a Ponzi scheme, does not mean the US economy isn't.  A Ponzi scheme uses new money to pay off old debts - that is what the US treasury does.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  For each billion dollars the treasury makes (the only source of money), it asks for 1.x billion back, with x being the interest rate.  Where does that x money come from?  By making more money and widening the gap.

Yes, the US will eventually go bankrupt - it is an absolute mathematical inevitability.  It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.
Please watch this video, I promise you will learn something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzMqm2TwgE&feature=player_embedded

[Vod]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

[FlipPro]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

[elk-tamer]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Yeah, or draw a picture of what you're thinking or something. Either you or everyone else is in for a revelation.

Are you imagining dollars as debt that has to "paid back", and an expanding economy as a disruption of the balance sheet between dollars created and dollars owed?

[Vod]

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Can we agree that the US Treasury creates all the currency that is in use for the United States?  Can we also agree that that money was lent out to the government with interest?

If so, what work do I need to show?   If all the money I have to pay off a debt is $100, and I owe $110, how can I pay the debt ever?  

[FlipPro]

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Can we agree that the US Treasury creates all the currency that is in use for the United States?  Can we also agree that that money was lent out to the government with interest?

If so, what work do I need to show?   If all the money I have to pay off a debt is $100, and I owe $110, how can I pay the debt ever?  

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

[Vod]

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

Sorry about that.

 $100 <-- USD in existence
-$110 <-- USD owed to treasury
 ------
 ($10) <-- Debt that cannot be paid off.

[TKE406]

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

It's not a chart, but it tells you in order who the biggest holders of US debt are.

[SpaceLord]

We started out as the smallest government this world has ever seen and consequently we have ended up as the largest.

Wha? I can't, I don't, ummmm...

When were we the smallest government? Source?

[RandyFolds]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. You seem to ignore that simple fact throughout your analysis.