US Dollar maybe shit aug 2nd GO BITCOIN watch video

[klamathonsite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI

[1715225598]

1715225598

[1715225598]

1715225598

[TraderTimm]

If the budget talks stalemate and no agreement is reached by July 22nd, then the US would have in the first time in its history - a ratings downgrade. This of course would result in some interesting knock-on effects. While many have been concerned about the monetization of debt, an event like this would thrust this issue into the public eye.

My prediction is there will be a compromised agreement at the last minute, with grandiose claims made by both sides, while the Fed continues to extend the issuance of debt through non-publicized means.

Executive summary, kick the can further down the road - but the can is getting heavier. Delaying the inevitable with terrible consequences.

[Vod]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually - it was inevitable once your treasury issued $1 and demanded more than that $1 back (interest).  It's the world's largest ponzi scheme - making new money to pay interest on the old.   But I agree with Timm that a deal will be reached last minute that will raise the debt limit.

An excellent movie explaining this is here:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/

[dikidera]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI

Link is dead?

[alkhdaniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI

Link is dead?

Not really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTt2_4W55wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI
I sure as hell see no difference between those 2 links, however the bottom one doesn't work?? WTF???

There is something wrong with the "v=" part in the second one, however i can't quite find any difference, seriously, if you copypaste the second one and just remove the "v=" part and type it in manually the video loads fine.

Most weird thing '11.

edit: judging by where they link it seems like there is a hidden character in between the "v" and "=".

Here is the invisible character: ​
Try copypaste everything after the ":" into a textbox and then move through it with the arrows on the keyboard and you will see there is something there, what the f*ck is this character lol? Never seen anything like it heh.

[myhoho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTt2_4W55wI

Thanks. Could you please place this link is the first message of this thread?

[Mousepotato]

Mouse-over each link and see the diff in the status bar.

[imanikin]

Where was that thread with the Economics majors in it?

It was about how in case of US default on its treasury bonds the USD would actually go very high in value for a while, before it goes down...

[FlipPro]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually - it was inevitable once your treasury issued $1 and demanded more than that $1 back (interest).  It's the world's largest ponzi scheme - making new money to pay interest on the old.   But I agree with Timm that a deal will be reached last minute that will raise the debt limit.

An excellent movie explaining this is here:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what country you are from, but America isn't going anywhere... This entire concept that America is somehow the next Greece is absolute horse crap. America has only dropped about 4% of its world reserve status in the last 4 years, hardly a cause for this extreme panic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar

We just went through one of worst recessions since the great depression, and our world reserve status only dropped from 65.9% in 04 to 61.5% in the final quarter of '10. Obviously the decline is alarming, but we are nowhere near the bottom, and still control over 60% of the worlds reserve currencies.

The problem? When Clinton left office in '00 we were 70.5% of the world’s reserve currency, and after 8 years of Bush destruction we were down to 62.1%. How did we get there? How about a Medicare prescription drug program that wasn't paid for, 2 completely unfunded and unnecessary wars, and on top of that unfunded tax cuts for the nation’s top 2 percent. It is no mystery how we got here, whats beyond me is that people can still sit there behind the sea of lies, and somehow demand that America go bankrupt when we are far, far from that.
Like the President said in this video,

"Contrary to what some people may say, we are not Greece"
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

While times are tough, and Republicans are blocking any reasonable legislation on the hill, things will eventually get better. And it will be the people who were willing to persevere through the hard times that will be on top during good ones.

[Raoul Duke]

Not really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTt2_4W55wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI
I sure as hell see no difference between those 2 links, however the bottom one doesn't work?? WTF???

There is something wrong with the "v=" part in the second one, however i can't quite find any difference, seriously, if you copypaste the second one and just remove the "v=" part and type it in manually the video loads fine.

Code:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTt2_4W55wI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTt2_4W55wI</a><br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%E2%80%8B=HTt2_4W55wI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=HTt2_4W55wI</a>

If you looked at the page source code you would notice that the 2^nd link has some URL encoded stuff there

[Anonymous]

We've defaulted 7 times thus far. It's time to do it again and have a chance to learn. We probably won't. Whatever. The sooner this cesspool collapses in its tyranny and corruption, the better.

[evoorhees]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.

To how much of other peoples' money do you think you're entitled?

[Anonymous]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.

To how much of other peoples' money do you think you're entitled?

Here's the deal:

If he goes down, everyone must go down with him.

[shackleford]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

[mpfrank]

Warren Buffett has publicly stated that it is shameful that his secretary pays a larger percentage of her income in taxes than he does.  He himself believes taxes on the wealthy (all the wealthy, not just him of course) should be increased.

[onesalt]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

The fact that people like you are advcating for flat taxes are why the US is in massive debt with some of the lowest tax rates in the world (that are still apparantly "too high" despite repeated cuts). If people don't want to support a country they live in they can fuck the hell off and live in whatever third world shithole they want.

[Jaime Frontero]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

post #14, meet post #15.

nobody's trying to make buffet look like a bad guy.  and he isn't.  that's why he understands that he should be paying mucho mas in taxes.

what was the top tax rate, when this country was at its best across the board?  when was that?

do you even know?

[kiba]

The fact that people like you are advcating for flat taxes are why the US is in massive debt with some of the lowest tax rates in the world (that are still apparantly "too high" despite repeated cuts). If people don't want to support a country they live in they can fuck the hell off and live in whatever third world shithole they want.

You got a whole bureaucracy dedicated to tracking down tax evasion. You got folks like me thinking about  doing taxes and not knowing if I violate any tax law. Then you got breaucract social engineering with taxes. I will never see a damn dime out of social security. The tax money will be used to enrich and pay off political supporters, support business that would not otherwise succeed.

A fiat tax, or a sale tax, that have no exceptions and very easy to understand would be far more socially efficient. One that does not tax the productive thought capacities resources of a whole societies. Rich people devising clever scheme to do tax evasion is symptomatic of the problem, not the cause of our woes.

Honestly, if I am worth a million dollars in productive capacity, and the government took a very large percentage of my earning, I too would be talking to tax lawyers for ways to preserve much of that earning. Perhaps, I will shred the job that I am very productive in and the economy will be worse off for it.

Also note that flat taxes are not in contradiction with higher taxes.

However, higher flat taxes will not solve the problem with our economy and how we govern. Moreover, the current situation have to do with governments not balancing their budget. It have something to do with the systematic incentives of politicians giving into short term gains by over-promising for the future.

It is precisely democracy that is the problem as it is asking 300 million people to select politicians who will decide on every issue in congress. We are expecting a population to be well informed and able to keep eyes on our politicians. This is not feasible when the population can't ever know or be informed by everything, have busy lives and concern of their own, and skills that they need to maintain.

Right now, the elderly have lot of free time in order to vote while the twenty-something have better things to do. They demand their medicare and social security as promised by the government, but which will bankrupt the government. Also note that they have been paying social security taxes for years.

[TheGer]

Want to know what the problem is?  

The Federal Reserve giving TRILLIONS of Dollars away to offshore Banks to "stimulate" the economy while signing you on to pay it back to the Fed(at interest ofcourse).  Rinse, repeat ect.  But we're at the debt ceiling what do we do?  Oops sorry we gave all your money away to foreign banks teehee.  

Government Regulation crippling any kind of productive job producing industries and forcing them to either shut down or go overseas(20% unemployment anyone?).  That is ofcourse unless you're "on the team" then you can skirt the regulations and coast to profits while the other guys goes tits up.  What does this do?  Well it makes the US have to print more money just to pay its bills since it's not generating its own wealth anymore.

Anyone seen pics of the old soup lines from the Great Depression?  A sign of the times right?  How do you hide this sign of the times now so people don't notice?  Food Stamps.  40+ Million people on Food Stamps.  40 + Millions people that would otherwise be lining up for the government dole of food and water.

In the Great Depression we had about 90% Rural 10% urban populations with maybe about 3/4 or more of those rural being self suffefient.  Now it's 90% urban 10% rural with less than half of those rural being self sufficient.  About 10 million or so died then from starvation or malnutrition complications.  What do you think those numbers will be like when the hammer drops now?  Won't take but a week or 2 for complete anarchy and violence to take hold nation-wide as people scour the country for food and water just to live.  Not gonna happen?  When things go tits up Transportation will be one of the first things to go.  That means no food coming into large population centres anymore.  Just take a moment and walk through how that plays out in your mind.

Oh ofcourse there's more but...  I'm hungry.

[joulesbeef]

First the GOP is playing chicken and no one thinks they wont actually raise it.

even if the GOP doesnt Obama can invoke the 14th and raise it anyways. The debt ceiling law isnt really constitutional but no one has challenged it yet.

He can also order the fed to destroy their nearly 2 trillion in holdings.(they really arent as private as people claim and yes the president CAN do this and no the fed cant say no), this of course is only a temp solution.

And we can actually mint a 2 trillion dollar coin and buy the bonds off that the fed holds, reducing our debt.(not my fav option though it sounds kinda cool)

to the poster above, the fed lent offshore banks trillions in cash at near zero interest, the money was created out of thin air, lent, paid back and then disappeared just like it was created. This has nothing to do with our debt ceiling and actually was nearly the size of our entire debt... but wasnt even a blip on the economic radar.

our m2 is growing at 6% which is dead smack average growth since we have gone to fiat money


in 2001 it shot up 13%

china has a larger money base and an economy 1/3 the size of ours, and they arent the worlds reserve currency. Last year their money supply increased by 20%. Many countries have expanded far far far more than us, which is why the IMF wars against currency wars. There is nothing really unusual in our money supply growth especially being in economic times such as now.


Kiba you forget we had a surplus in 2000, and dont say dotcom cause the economy has expanded by 40% since then. Taxes are 14% of teh gdp right now, in 2000 they were 20%. Yes rolling back taxes can fix things. Bush's treasury sect paul o'neil warned taxes would have to be raised 66% above the 2000 level to fix the damage that bush was about to cause with his tax cuts. Cheney spouted "reagan proved deficits dont matter" and then they fired Paul O'Neil for being 100% correct.

we have a political party with a "starve the beast" ideology, they actual work to increase debts and deficits in order to demand cuts to new deal programs, this is our most major problem. Republicans know cutting popular programs are unpopular, so they create economic crisis and then blame the popular programs.

[TheGer]

Show me.  Show me where the almost 30 Trillion and growing money went please.

"to the poster above, the fed lent offshore banks trillions in cash at near zero interest, the money was created out of thin air, lent, paid back and then disappeared just like it was created. This has nothing to do with our debt ceiling and actually was nearly the size of our entire debt... but wasnt even a blip on the economic radar."

[SpaceLord]

Yeah, we're not in the greatest shape, yet look at the competitors for the top of the heap:

China: They're tied to us. If we fail, they fail. And the yuan's artificially low price will eventually hurt them.

Europe: Oooh boy. They're too big and too varied to use a single currency right now. It's a mess.

[shackleford]

Warren Buffett has publicly stated that it is shameful that his secretary pays a larger percentage of her income in taxes than he does.  He himself believes taxes on the wealthy (all the wealthy, not just him of course) should be increased.

Understanding that here is different types of income that is taxed differently is key. His salary is 100,000$ (or similar) the rest of his income is from stock dividends.  Nothing is preventing people that think they should pay more in taxes from doing so. Might as well flush it down the toilet.
http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html

[shackleford]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

The fact that people like you are advcating for flat taxes are why the US is in massive debt with some of the lowest tax rates in the world (that are still apparantly "too high" despite repeated cuts). If people don't want to support a country they live in they can fuck the hell off and live in whatever third world shithole they want.

Americans who disagree with a graduated tax structure are no less "American" than the socialists who put the programs in place that are going to demand more and more resources even though I wish they would move to fucking Cuba.

[PinkiePie]

I'm a Libertarian and not at all a fan of our big stupid government.  The fact is though, our big stupid government has already agreed to spend money above the current debt limit.  At the minimum, we need to raise it enough to pay our current obligations. 

I'm all for drastically reducing the amount of money we waste on welfare and NASA and foreign aid but for now we pay what we owe.

[RandyFolds]

I'm a Libertarian and not at all a fan of our big stupid government.  The fact is though, our big stupid government has already agreed to spend money above the current debt limit.  At the minimum, we need to raise it enough to pay our current obligations. 

I'm all for drastically reducing the amount of money we waste on welfare and NASA and foreign aid but for now we pay what we owe.

Don't lump NASA with welfare and foreign aid.

[Vod]

I'm all for drastically reducing the amount of money we waste on welfare and NASA and foreign aid but for now we pay what we owe.

The US spends less on NASA than they do on air conditioning in the middle east.   

[PinkiePie]

NASA had it's time, but private industry is ready to take over in space.  We would have been much further along if we had let the free market seek solutions to space from the start.  We did to a degree, relying on private Aerospace contractors for much of the work, but privatizing it fully would have worked better.

We look at winning the space race as a victory for capitalist society over communists, but we did it with a government agency.  That takes some of the shine off the propaganda value.

[Vod]

NASA had it's time, but private industry is ready to take over in space.

NASA still has its place.   There is no profit in locating near earth objects, unless you sell doomsday bunkers.

[Anonymous]

NASA was more of a deficit to human life than it could ever achieve in innovation. It's an inefficient waste of space.

[Anonymous]

NASA had it's time, but private industry is ready to take over in space.

There is no profit in locating near earth objects

There is considering the destruction of human life and the planet is bad for business.

[Anonymous]

This would never happen under sound, private incentive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JOjcDFtBE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmWbV_YkQT0&feature=related

THEY COULDN'T AFFORD IT.

However, when you can waste money like no tomorrow, who gives a fuck?

[shackleford]

I'm a Libertarian and not at all a fan of our big stupid government.  The fact is though, our big stupid government has already agreed to spend money above the current debt limit.  At the minimum, we need to raise it enough to pay our current obligations. 

I'm all for drastically reducing the amount of money we waste on welfare and NASA and foreign aid but for now we pay what we owe.

I agree, at the very least if we could get the balanced budget Constitutional amendment in it would force the logical conclusions that we cannot continue as we are. This will FORCE massive spending cuts and or massive tax increases and we will need to prioritize what government does instead of overspending just because we can. It is funny to hear Obama's reasoning for not wanting the constitutional amendment.

[Anonymous]

We started out as the smallest government this world has ever seen and consequently we have ended up as the largest. It's time for this beast to reap what it has sowed. Our currency is overdue for failure and the masking of the economic damage is peeling away.

There is no hope in our current state-of-affairs unless we break from the status-quo immediately.

You can try to lower the debt and make sure the government pushes its paper according to sound mathematics but it's irrelevant when you squash human desire, innovation and man's ability to create. They will soon not have a penny to stand on.

It's over folks.

[elk-tamer]

I agree, at the very least if we could get the balanced budget Constitutional amendment in it would force the logical conclusions that we cannot continue as we are. This will FORCE massive spending cuts and or massive tax increases and we will need to prioritize what government does instead of overspending just because we can. It is funny to hear Obama's reasoning for not wanting the constitutional amendment.

I don't think even the Republicans take that amendment seriously. The economic situation the US is in right now is the best proof of why it's a bad idea. What did Obama say about it?

[shackleford]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

post #14, meet post #15.

nobody's trying to make buffet look like a bad guy.  and he isn't.  that's why he understands that he should be paying mucho mas in taxes.

what was the top tax rate, when this country was at its best across the board?  when was that?

do you even know?

Sounds like material straight from a Michael Moore film... same arguments.

According to this logic this argument will be made over and over until the rates are at their highest level.

Just because somebody  can look at a 90%+ tax rate and come to the conclusion it is unjust does not make them an idiot.  I am  so sick of hearing about the top 2% with Obama and his distortion of "fair".
   
Define: fair  (graduated does not fit)

[FlipPro]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

Did you even take the time to look at the video I posted. I think you will like it .

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually - it was inevitable once your treasury issued $1 and demanded more than that $1 back (interest).  It's the world's largest ponzi scheme - making new money to pay interest on the old.   But I agree with Timm that a deal will be reached last minute that will raise the debt limit.

An excellent movie explaining this is here:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/

Remind to kick your bald headed ass when I see you. I'm now watching this video because of you (can be found here: http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/ ).

Thank you kindly for bringing it to mine/our/the community's attention.

[FlipPro]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

post #14, meet post #15.

nobody's trying to make buffet look like a bad guy.  and he isn't.  that's why he understands that he should be paying mucho mas in taxes.

what was the top tax rate, when this country was at its best across the board?  when was that?

do you even know?

Sounds like material straight from a Michael Moore film... same arguments.

According to this logic this argument will be made over and over until the rates are at their highest level.

Just because somebody  can look at a 90%+ tax rate and come to the conclusion it is unjust does not make them an idiot.  I am  so sick of hearing about the top 2% with Obama and his distortion of "fair".
   
Define: fair  (graduated does not fit)

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

[shackleford]

I agree, at the very least if we could get the balanced budget Constitutional amendment in it would force the logical conclusions that we cannot continue as we are. This will FORCE massive spending cuts and or massive tax increases and we will need to prioritize what government does instead of overspending just because we can. It is funny to hear Obama's reasoning for not wanting the constitutional amendment.

I don't think even the Republicans take that amendment seriously. The economic situation the US is in right now is the best proof of why it's a bad idea. What did Obama say about it?

I know it probably won't work but that would be awesome if it did instead of waiting for the eventual  pain.
 
The link on Obama's stance on the amendment was in an earlier post. What made me laugh was:
"The constitution already tells us to do our jobs, and to make sure that the government is living within its means and making responsible choices." (so we don't need the Constitutional amendment)
Just wow....

http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fpolitics-15749652%252Fobama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

[shackleford]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

Did you even take the time to look at the video I posted. I think you will like it .

I watched the Yahoo one I just reposted about , it was filled with nonsense and party line BS not fit for consumption (like most presidential propaganda sessions). I will try the other two.

I just really respect Buffet for being so down to earth and his personal finance decisions.

[rebuilder]

Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

That chart seems misleading. Contrast to this chart of US national debt as percentage of the GDP:
http://www.stmartinsystems.com/100813_Why_Fig_1.jpg

[shackleford]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

post #14, meet post #15.

nobody's trying to make buffet look like a bad guy.  and he isn't.  that's why he understands that he should be paying mucho mas in taxes.

what was the top tax rate, when this country was at its best across the board?  when was that?

do you even know?

Sounds like material straight from a Michael Moore film... same arguments.

According to this logic this argument will be made over and over until the rates are at their highest level.

Just because somebody  can look at a 90%+ tax rate and come to the conclusion it is unjust does not make them an idiot.  I am  so sick of hearing about the top 2% with Obama and his distortion of "fair".
   
Define: fair  (graduated does not fit)

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I am not even sure if you are directing this at me since it is disconnected from what I was talking about.

I love the condescending attitude like if I disagree I must not be very learned .. or somthin.

Do you have data on the spending side or are you completely focused on the revenue side. There are two sides to this equation perhaps the algebra is needed ... (middle school where I come from)
If you want to say that the ONLY reason the US is in debt is because the top income earners are not paying 95% tax ... I would say that the US is overspending if they have to rely on a graduated tax system.

"Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs..."
Exactly so why should few carry all the burden? The crux of the issue is ideology and what people think fair is, you can show me graphs forever on why you think somebody owes more tax for exactly the same amount of government service but I would never agree, it goes against my principals of what fair is. The only thing those graphs show is that the United States NEEDS more money and or less spending nothing else.

[JeffK]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what country you are from, but America isn't going anywhere... This entire concept that America is somehow the next Greece is absolute horse crap. America has only dropped about 4% of its world reserve status in the last 4 years, hardly a cause for this extreme panic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar

We just went through one of worst recessions since the great depression, and our world reserve status only dropped from 65.9% in 04 to 61.5% in the final quarter of '10. Obviously the decline is alarming, but we are nowhere near the bottom, and still control over 60% of the worlds reserve currencies.

The problem? When Clinton left office in '00 we were 70.5% of the world’s reserve currency, and after 8 years of Bush destruction we were down to 62.1%. How did we get there? How about a Medicare prescription drug program that wasn't paid for, 2 completely unfunded and unnecessary wars, and on top of that unfunded tax cuts for the nation’s top 2 percent. It is no mystery how we got here, whats beyond me is that people can still sit there behind the sea of lies, and somehow demand that America go bankrupt when we are far, far from that.
Like the President said in this video,

"Contrary to what some people may say, we are not Greece"
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

While times are tough, and Republicans are blocking any reasonable legislation on the hill, things will eventually get better. And it will be the people who were willing to persevere through the hard times that will be on top during good ones.

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I want everyone in this thread to look at these two posts. This is one of the actual problems with this country, not the US dollar being in decline vs. other currencies.

Vegetta, I usually think you come up with some dumb/hateful posts, but this cited, factual correctness from you is shockingly refreshing in contrast with people who just post random claims or make spiteful responses, like shackleford or Atlas

[JeffK]

"Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world."

Seriously?... your going try to make Buffet look like a bad guy? You think he has 50 billion sitting in a bank account?  His net worth is based on stock in the company he has built most of his life. Even though he has this enormous wealth from his company stock he probably lives below the means of your neighbors.

Buffet has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth upon his death. Not doing the standard big inheritance is something I totally agree with as long as it is by his own decision and not a forced government theft.. Still not enough for lefties... you think he needs to sell the ownership of his company to fund the entitlement state right this second.

This prevailing attitude in America makes me want to vomit. I don't care what anyone says.. a flat tax is the only "fair" tax rate if you understand how percentages work.. and most liberals don't or don't care.

Buffet: "I don't have a problem with guilt about money. The way I see it is that my money represents an enormous number of claim checks on society. It's like I have these little pieces of paper that I can turn into consumption. If I wanted to, I could hire 10,000 people to do nothing but paint my picture every day for the rest of my life. And the GDP would go up. But the utility of the product would be zilch, and I would be keeping those 10,000 people from doing AIDS research, or teaching, or nursing. I don't do that though. I don't use very many of those claim checks. There's nothing material I want very much. And I'm going to give virtually all of those claim checks to charity when my wife and I die"

Buffet... of all the people to point the a finger at. (shaking head)

post #14, meet post #15.

nobody's trying to make buffet look like a bad guy.  and he isn't.  that's why he understands that he should be paying mucho mas in taxes.

what was the top tax rate, when this country was at its best across the board?  when was that?

do you even know?

Sounds like material straight from a Michael Moore film... same arguments.

According to this logic this argument will be made over and over until the rates are at their highest level.

Just because somebody  can look at a 90%+ tax rate and come to the conclusion it is unjust does not make them an idiot.  I am  so sick of hearing about the top 2% with Obama and his distortion of "fair".
   
Define: fair  (graduated does not fit)

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I am not even sure if you are directing this at me since it is disconnected from what I was talking about.

I love the condescending attitude like if I disagree I must not be very learned .. or somthin.

Do you have data on the spending side or are you completely focused on the revenue side. There are two sides to this equation perhaps the algebra is needed ... (middle school where I come from)
If you want to say that the ONLY reason the US is in debt is because the top income earners are not paying 95% tax ... I would say that the US is overspending if they have to rely on a graduated tax system.

"Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs..."
Exactly so why should few carry all the burden? The crux of the issue is ideology and what people think fair is, you can show me graphs forever on why you think somebody owes more tax for exactly the same amount of government service but I would never agree, it goes against my principals of what fair is. The only thing those graphs show is that the United States NEEDS more money and or less spending nothing else.

Spending clearly is out of control, but Vegetta is clearly right when he points out there is a clear, inverse correlation between tax rates on the wealthy and amount of debt.

How does this not make sense to you? The rich pay less taxes every decade since WW2, debt gets increasingly higher in that same time period.

[shackleford]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what country you are from, but America isn't going anywhere... This entire concept that America is somehow the next Greece is absolute horse crap. America has only dropped about 4% of its world reserve status in the last 4 years, hardly a cause for this extreme panic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar

We just went through one of worst recessions since the great depression, and our world reserve status only dropped from 65.9% in 04 to 61.5% in the final quarter of '10. Obviously the decline is alarming, but we are nowhere near the bottom, and still control over 60% of the worlds reserve currencies.

The problem? When Clinton left office in '00 we were 70.5% of the world’s reserve currency, and after 8 years of Bush destruction we were down to 62.1%. How did we get there? How about a Medicare prescription drug program that wasn't paid for, 2 completely unfunded and unnecessary wars, and on top of that unfunded tax cuts for the nation’s top 2 percent. It is no mystery how we got here, whats beyond me is that people can still sit there behind the sea of lies, and somehow demand that America go bankrupt when we are far, far from that.
Like the President said in this video,

"Contrary to what some people may say, we are not Greece"
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

While times are tough, and Republicans are blocking any reasonable legislation on the hill, things will eventually get better. And it will be the people who were willing to persevere through the hard times that will be on top during good ones.

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I want everyone in this thread to look at these two posts. This is one of the actual problems with this country, not the US dollar being in decline vs. other currencies.

Vegetta, I usually think you come up with some dumb/hateful posts, but this cited, factual correctness from you is shockingly refreshing in contrast with people who just post random claims or make spiteful responses, like shackleford or Atlas

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice.. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

[JeffK]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what country you are from, but America isn't going anywhere... This entire concept that America is somehow the next Greece is absolute horse crap. America has only dropped about 4% of its world reserve status in the last 4 years, hardly a cause for this extreme panic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar

We just went through one of worst recessions since the great depression, and our world reserve status only dropped from 65.9% in 04 to 61.5% in the final quarter of '10. Obviously the decline is alarming, but we are nowhere near the bottom, and still control over 60% of the worlds reserve currencies.

The problem? When Clinton left office in '00 we were 70.5% of the world’s reserve currency, and after 8 years of Bush destruction we were down to 62.1%. How did we get there? How about a Medicare prescription drug program that wasn't paid for, 2 completely unfunded and unnecessary wars, and on top of that unfunded tax cuts for the nation’s top 2 percent. It is no mystery how we got here, whats beyond me is that people can still sit there behind the sea of lies, and somehow demand that America go bankrupt when we are far, far from that.
Like the President said in this video,

"Contrary to what some people may say, we are not Greece"
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

While times are tough, and Republicans are blocking any reasonable legislation on the hill, things will eventually get better. And it will be the people who were willing to persevere through the hard times that will be on top during good ones.

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I want everyone in this thread to look at these two posts. This is one of the actual problems with this country, not the US dollar being in decline vs. other currencies.

Vegetta, I usually think you come up with some dumb/hateful posts, but this cited, factual correctness from you is shockingly refreshing in contrast with people who just post random claims or make spiteful responses, like shackleford or Atlas

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice.. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

What about asking the rich to pay more in taxes isn't fair?

The rich need and utilize resources like roads for transportation, unemployment/welfare for support of their economically disadvantaged, and police departments to protect their property (which, due to the larger size/amount of their property, requires more police resources to protect).

The benefit more from these resources than other taxpayers (e.g., middle class taxpayer who pays low amount of taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel, rich person who pays taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel PLUS the added advantage of having smooth roads for his employees to drive on, making them more productive).

Yes, every year, the rich push for lower and lower taxes, making false claims that everyone derives the same benefit from infrastructure, and thus should pay nearer to the same amount for them.

Asking the rich to pay more is fair, because when they derive the most benefit from social services yet ask that those who have less money and derive less benefit from them pay more of the portion, we must borrow to fill in the 'gaps'

[FlipPro]

Vegetta, I usually think you come up with some dumb/hateful posts, but this cited, factual correctness from you is shockingly refreshing in contrast with people who just post random claims or make spiteful responses, like shackleford or Atlas

I realize that I have to explain my ideas better so that some people begin to give me the respect I feel I deserve. Lies can be dispelled with truths. Sometimes the truth hurts especially when it's against your own-self.  However, the ability to grow during these bad times is crucial for the progression of our race; man-kind. We must dispel the lies within our government, within our businesses, within our communities, and within ourselves... So that we can ultimately find the peace and prosperity we all so eagerly desire. Happiness is the key to the land of divinity my friends…

Bill Maher(L) - Ed Shultz(D) - Micheal Steal (R) - Lies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAINcFgagN0&feature=related

[FlipPro]

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice..  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

So we are redefining the word "fair" here? You think it's fair to pull the plug on seniors, take away college grants from students, and rip unemployment from the unemployed while we continue to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to Billionaires? Ever heard of "fair" shared sacrifice?

Paul Ryan sure has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5kgnE1Xvec

[JeffK]

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice..  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

So we are redefining the word "fair" here? You think it's fair to pull the plug on seniors, take away college grants from students, and rip unemployment from the unemployed while we continue to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to Billionaires? Ever heard of "fair" shared sacrifice?

Paul Ryan sure has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5kgnE1Xvec

This guy gets it.

shackleford, what you are advocating is the opposite of "fair". The billionaires have had their time, as a society we need to care for our other citizens like the elderly, our students, and those down-on-their-luck individuals on welfare instead. If not, our society will collapse into some awful hellhole catering to the whims of the elite.

[FlipPro]

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice..  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

So we are redefining the word "fair" here? You think it's fair to pull the plug on seniors, take away college grants from students, and rip unemployment from the unemployed while we continue to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to Billionaires? Ever heard of "fair" shared sacrifice?

Paul Ryan sure has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5kgnE1Xvec

This guy gets it.

shackleford, what you are advocating is the opposite of "fair". The billionaires have had their time, as a society we need to care for our other citizens like the elderly, our students, and those down-on-their-luck individuals on welfare instead. If not, our society will collapse into some awful hellhole catering to the whims of the elite.

Some of the most Libertarian country’s on Earth, are the biggest 3'rd world retched hell holes. I am not promoting full-blown socialism, because I do not believe that is the answer. Socialism usually leads to fascism because of the human ego that lies within all of us. The ego is dangerous, and that is why I believe in a perfect balance only granted by the development of new age technologies like Bitcoin. I believe that human beings are inherently imperfect, and I believe that machines have been created to fix these imperfections that we have philosophically imposed on ourselves.

Bitcoin is the first of many cryptographic currencies that will help aide in this balancing act that the world is currently going through. We need to begin to appreciate our world status and progress this planet to a whole new level. We need to push the limits of the 1’st world and literally leave our current reality behind. I have been working on a post for about a month, and I think I am going to have to publish it soon, since the times are getting harder. It will be a fully detailed article on what I personally think Bitcoins are, and how I think the United States government and all of its people can benefit greatly from a new age Internet currency. We used to own the Internet back in the 90’s, now it’s our turn to do it again!

[JeffK]

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice..  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

So we are redefining the word "fair" here? You think it's fair to pull the plug on seniors, take away college grants from students, and rip unemployment from the unemployed while we continue to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to Billionaires? Ever heard of "fair" shared sacrifice?

Paul Ryan sure has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5kgnE1Xvec

This guy gets it.

shackleford, what you are advocating is the opposite of "fair". The billionaires have had their time, as a society we need to care for our other citizens like the elderly, our students, and those down-on-their-luck individuals on welfare instead. If not, our society will collapse into some awful hellhole catering to the whims of the elite.

Some of the most Libertarian country’s on Earth, are the biggest 3'rd world retched hell holes. I am not promoting full-blown socialism, because I do not believe that is the answer. Socialism usually leads to fascism because of the human ego that lies within all of us. The ego is dangerous, and that is why I believe in a perfect balance only granted by the development of new age technologies like Bitcoin. I believe that human beings are inherently imperfect, and I believe that machines have been created to fix these imperfections that we have philosophically imposed on ourselves.

Bitcoin is the first of many cryptographic currencies that will help aide in this balancing act that the world is currently going through. We need to begin to appreciate our world status and progress this planet to a whole new level. We need to push the limits of the 1’st world and literally leave our current reality behind. I have been working on a post for about a month, and I think I am going to have to publish it soon, since the times are getting harder. It will be a fully detailed article on what I personally think Bitcoins are, and how I think the United States government and all of its people can benefit greatly from a new age Internet currency. We used to own the Internet back in the 90’s, now it’s our turn to do it again!

Well congrats, you might be the most reasonable person on these forums. Sorry I was a little harsh on you, I can't wait for the writeup

[Grouver (BtcBalance)]

Hold on, am I reading this right.
Obama is trying to raise the  legally permitted maximum of 14,3 trillion with another 2,5 trillion?
And what happens after that? Does it get raised again and again?

What the hell. 

[FlipPro]

Hold on, am I reading this right.
Obama is trying to raise the  legally permitted maximum of 14,3 trillion with another 2,5 trillion?
And what happens after that? Does it get raised again and again?

What the hell. 

The President is after a common sense approach where the highest income earners start to pay at-least the same amount as their "less fortunate" counterparts, you know the middle class (see my Warren Buffet analogy in post above).And we unfortunately need to cut programs that we can't afford to have. However, we should continue to prioritize education, job creation, and infrastructural growth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kj3TlwJfgw

He wants to work with them... The Republicans are holding everything back, and you have to call it for what it is.

P.S Public education hasn't failed me...

[airdata]

Our government makes me sick seriously.  They have this debt ceiling thing happening and we have people like Sarah Palin talking about it as if it's simply a political party vs political party issue and not an American issue.

Shit is absolutely ridiculous.

[shackleford]

Maybe if Warren Buffet paid a little bit more than just 17.7 percent we wouldn't be in this revenue problem that we're in. Rich people honestly need to start paying their fair share. They are paying the lowest tax rates, of any industrialized country in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s&feature=player_embedded

I don't know what country you are from, but America isn't going anywhere... This entire concept that America is somehow the next Greece is absolute horse crap. America has only dropped about 4% of its world reserve status in the last 4 years, hardly a cause for this extreme panic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar

We just went through one of worst recessions since the great depression, and our world reserve status only dropped from 65.9% in 04 to 61.5% in the final quarter of '10. Obviously the decline is alarming, but we are nowhere near the bottom, and still control over 60% of the worlds reserve currencies.

The problem? When Clinton left office in '00 we were 70.5% of the world’s reserve currency, and after 8 years of Bush destruction we were down to 62.1%. How did we get there? How about a Medicare prescription drug program that wasn't paid for, 2 completely unfunded and unnecessary wars, and on top of that unfunded tax cuts for the nation’s top 2 percent. It is no mystery how we got here, whats beyond me is that people can still sit there behind the sea of lies, and somehow demand that America go bankrupt when we are far, far from that.
Like the President said in this video,

"Contrary to what some people may say, we are not Greece"
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/obama-s-armageddon-25952084.html

While times are tough, and Republicans are blocking any reasonable legislation on the hill, things will eventually get better. And it will be the people who were willing to persevere through the hard times that will be on top during good ones.

Really? The tax burdens are at their lowest point since 1958, yet you have the nerve to suggest that somehow this is an opportunity for the "big bad" government to come in and raise taxes to unheard of levels? Take a look at this graph, it's going to be a real eye opener for you, and if you can follow me now you will see that this is basic high school math.


Tax burdens on the rich decline to record lows...



Debt increases on EVERYONE to record highs...

I want everyone in this thread to look at these two posts. This is one of the actual problems with this country, not the US dollar being in decline vs. other currencies.

Vegetta, I usually think you come up with some dumb/hateful posts, but this cited, factual correctness from you is shockingly refreshing in contrast with people who just post random claims or make spiteful responses, like shackleford or Atlas

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice.. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

What about asking the rich to pay more in taxes isn't fair?

The rich need and utilize resources like roads for transportation, unemployment/welfare for support of their economically disadvantaged, and police departments to protect their property (which, due to the larger size/amount of their property, requires more police resources to protect).

The benefit more from these resources than other taxpayers (e.g., middle class taxpayer who pays low amount of taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel, rich person who pays taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel PLUS the added advantage of having smooth roads for his employees to drive on, making them more productive).

Yes, every year, the rich push for lower and lower taxes, making false claims that everyone derives the same benefit from infrastructure, and thus should pay nearer to the same amount for them.

Asking the rich to pay more is fair, because when they derive the most benefit from social services yet ask that those who have less money and derive less benefit from them pay more of the portion, we must borrow to fill in the 'gaps'

How does Warren Buffet fit into your view on why people should pay unequal percentages.  Since he was your example of a rich person that is not paying his fair share.  He lives in a normal house and has a regular car ect ect ... your example of why makes no sense.  If I had 1000 cars I could not drive them all at the same time...how would I be using the infrastructure more  than anyone else. Also I would still have to pay taxes on every car and title so on.. Your argument about  being responsible for the roads of employees is stretching it and if anything it should be considered on corporate tax (your mixing the two).

If you make people responsible for everyone else there is no limit to what you can say they owe.  Perhaps employee's should be issued vehicles to get to work .. A nice alarm clock and a top of the line mattress to be sure they are well rested...

[FlipPro]

We as a generation need to rise up and fight for what we know is right! We need to begin to organize with all of our community leaders, and we need to rally for a fair and sensible debt reduction plan that holds everyone accountable including these Washington politicians. Why do they deserve free universal health care when we can't have any? Why do we have to settle for a watered down plan while they get free healthcare for life on our dollar!

We need to come together and do nationwide peaceful rallies to show that we want this to go through without completely gutting Social Security and Medicare! Killing these social safety nets is what they’re primarily after, instead of modernizing these crucial entitlement programs, and making them more efficient thus reducing their costs.

Tea Party activist never account for technological advances in their growth projections, and that is a fundamental problem with the all out "conservative" approach. They are deeply pessimistic about the future, and believe that America can’t be great again. I couldn’t disagree more, and I believe that America’s time to shine is now! With Conservatives nothing ever changes, which leads things to become progressively worse... We as a society need to come out of our proverbial cocoon, and finally admit that we need one another much more than we think.

The sense of true enlightenment with God is that of unity, brought together by love and trust in thy neighbor. The belief of karma is truly a humbling one, and that’s what’s truly scary about this modern day conservative brand. They pretend that they care about people, yet when they see someone on the street dying they ignore it and call it an essential part of the free market system… Karma is real, and has always proven itself through history to punish those who are wicked towards their own people...

[RodeoX]

I'm giving a bitcoin presentation at a university on Aug. 2. If we default that day it's going to make my job a lot easier. 

[chuckypalumbo]

A default right now isn't going to happen, it's all a fucking show to build up the left versus right bs they want to feed you on tv to keep you distracted. There will be a debt limit increase followed by QE3, it's going to happen, and down the road the disaster will happen. They will delay this problem for as long as they can.

[FlipPro]

A default right now isn't going to happen, it's all a fucking show to build up the left versus right bs they want to feed you on tv to keep you distracted. There will be a debt limit increase followed by QE3, it's going to happen, and down the road the disaster will happen. They will delay this problem for as long as they can.

What you fail to see is if the Republicans were to agree to a sensible plan we could fix this problem. The Republicans however, refuse to give this president any significant victory's.

This has always been their goal from day one, to destroy President Obama so he can't get a second term.

Mitch McConnell Reaffirms His Top Priority To Limit Barack Obama To One Term -Heritage Foundation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXahlA8CTB4

If you don't know the Heritage foundation please inform yourself on who they are, and how they're destroying our country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

Rush Limbaugh "I hope Obama fails"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuYjWbAU2eU

Michelle Bachmann - "Goal is for Obama to Be One Term President"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfa05uBMaQ

One Term President - Attack Propaganda Collage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVt99OjZ1m8

Obama Faces GOP On Its Talking Points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5BE9_x7xTo

[SpaceLord]

If your goal is fiscal responsibility, the sane thing to do is to pay your bills on time. If you don't, your interest rate goes up, and you're in much worse shape than before. If we don't raise the ceiling, the trillions we owe will go up, fast and hard.

[gnaget]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually - it was inevitable once your treasury issued $1 and demanded more than that $1 back (interest).  It's the world's largest ponzi scheme - making new money to pay interest on the old.   But I agree with Timm that a deal will be reached last minute that will raise the debt limit.

An excellent movie explaining this is here:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/

http://www.businessinsider.com/everything-is-a-ponzi-scheme-2011-6

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

[TrainDeluxe]

No, USA will not go bankrupt. Not that soon. Its too early. For now the negotiations are a politcal theater. But keep in mind that China has huge amouns of $$$. If US goes fucked NOW they lose all that value. Chineese are not that stupid to allow that. In worst case they will buy US debt.

[Timo Y]

The United States MUST go bankrupt eventually

I don't think it must.  The US has one of the lowest tax rates of all developed countries. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

If the US increased general taxation from 25% of GPD to approx 50% of GPD, then it could pay back its public debt in less than 3 years.

The debt problem in the US is political more than economic.

[Mageant]

My prediction is there will be a compromised agreement at the last minute, with grandiose claims made by both sides, while the Fed continues to extend the issuance of debt through non-publicized means.

I agree. The "last minute" compromise will be celebrated as a victory and great achievement.

[JeffK]

What about asking the rich to pay more in taxes isn't fair?

The rich need and utilize resources like roads for transportation, unemployment/welfare for support of their economically disadvantaged, and police departments to protect their property (which, due to the larger size/amount of their property, requires more police resources to protect).

The benefit more from these resources than other taxpayers (e.g., middle class taxpayer who pays low amount of taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel, rich person who pays taxes gets access to smooth roads for travel PLUS the added advantage of having smooth roads for his employees to drive on, making them more productive).

Yes, every year, the rich push for lower and lower taxes, making false claims that everyone derives the same benefit from infrastructure, and thus should pay nearer to the same amount for them.

Asking the rich to pay more is fair, because when they derive the most benefit from social services yet ask that those who have less money and derive less benefit from them pay more of the portion, we must borrow to fill in the 'gaps'

How does Warren Buffet fit into your view on why people should pay unequal percentages.  Since he was your example of a rich person that is not paying his fair share.  He lives in a normal house and has a regular car ect ect ... your example of why makes no sense.  If I had 1000 cars I could not drive them all at the same time...how would I be using the infrastructure more  than anyone else. Also I would still have to pay taxes on every car and title so on.. Your argument about  being responsible for the roads of employees is stretching it and if anything it should be considered on corporate tax (your mixing the two).

If you make people responsible for everyone else there is no limit to what you can say they owe.  Perhaps employee's should be issued vehicles to get to work .. A nice alarm clock and a top of the line mattress to be sure they are well rested...

Buffet is a huge advocate for higher taxes on the wealthy, but since he doubts that will happen has teamed up with Bill Gates to convince other billionaires to give most of their wealth to charity - I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

[JeffK]

No, USA will not go bankrupt. Not that soon. Its too early. For now the negotiations are a politcal theater. But keep in mind that China has huge amouns of $$$. If US goes fucked NOW they lose all that value. Chineese are not that stupid to allow that. In worst case they will buy US debt.

Everyone who said this is all political theater and the limit will be raised is 100% correct.

also, here is a pie chart of who owns/is buying US debt, China is less than you'd think:



edit: oops, that chart is out of date, but the ratios are still close to the same

[Vod]

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

Just because everything is not a Ponzi scheme, does not mean the US economy isn't.  A Ponzi scheme uses new money to pay off old debts - that is what the US treasury does.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  For each billion dollars the treasury makes (the only source of money), it asks for 1.x billion back, with x being the interest rate.  Where does that x money come from?  By making more money and widening the gap.

Yes, the US will eventually go bankrupt - it is an absolute mathematical inevitability.  It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

[joulesbeef]

actually our taxes are 14.4% of our gdp currently. That wiki uses old data.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows. 

dont know where you got that info.. so you want to claim we didnt have a surplus in 2000 and that everyone is lying but right wing sites? You want to claim we didnt have a projected surplus of 5 trillion over ten years? want to claim the republican lead cbo ddnt complain that the bush tax cuts destroyed 1/2 of that? or do you want to claim it was all dot com when our economy has grown by 40% since 2000?

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

this is the only thing I can come close to agreeing with, right now interest is our 3rd biggest payment and if we didnt address the debt, it very well can rise higher than our gnp. It is actually predicted to be our biggest payment within 10 years. But anyone who tells you we cant pay off our debt ever, or that their isnt enough money in the us to do so, is blowing smoke up your asss and hopes you have a memory that doesnt go back to 2000

[Vod]

actually our taxes are 14.4% of our gdp currently. That wiki uses old data.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  

dont know where you got that info.. so you want to claim we didnt have a surplus in 2000 and that everyone is lying but right wing sites? You want to claim we didnt have a projected surplus of 5 trillion over ten years? want to claim the republican lead cbo ddnt complain that the bush tax cuts destroyed 1/2 of that? or do you want to claim it was all dot com when our economy has grown by 40% since 2000?

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

this is the only thing I can come close to agreeing with, right now interest is our 3rd biggest payment and if we didnt address the debt, it very well can rise higher than our gnp. It is actually predicted to be our biggest payment within 10 years. But anyone who tells you we cant pay off our debt ever, or that their isnt enough money in the us to do so, is blowing smoke up your asss and hopes you have a memory that doesnt go back to 2000

Having a surplus means you took in more money than you spent during the single reporting period.  If the economy grows by 40%, it's in part to the treasury printing more money and lending it out with interest.  Very simply, if I have the only dollar in the world, and I give it to you and ask for $1.10 back, there is not enough money in the world to pay off what you owe.

Don't believe me - go read any financial website on FIAT currencies, or watch the movie I recommended at the start of the thread.  All the sources are listed.

[FlipPro]

Not everything is a ponzi scheme.  Every since Bernie Madoff, everything is a ponzi scheme.  Seriously, I've broken enough keyboards, don't get me banging my head again

Just because everything is not a Ponzi scheme, does not mean the US economy isn't.  A Ponzi scheme uses new money to pay off old debts - that is what the US treasury does.

There is not enough money in the US (real or virtual) to pay off the US debt, nor will there ever be.  Every day that shortage grows.  For each billion dollars the treasury makes (the only source of money), it asks for 1.x billion back, with x being the interest rate.  Where does that x money come from?  By making more money and widening the gap.

Yes, the US will eventually go bankrupt - it is an absolute mathematical inevitability.  It may not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the interest payments alone will be more than the entire GNP of the country.

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.
Please watch this video, I promise you will learn something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzMqm2TwgE&feature=player_embedded

[Vod]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

[FlipPro]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

[elk-tamer]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Yeah, or draw a picture of what you're thinking or something. Either you or everyone else is in for a revelation.

Are you imagining dollars as debt that has to "paid back", and an expanding economy as a disruption of the balance sheet between dollars created and dollars owed?

[Vod]

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Can we agree that the US Treasury creates all the currency that is in use for the United States?  Can we also agree that that money was lent out to the government with interest?

If so, what work do I need to show?   If all the money I have to pay off a debt is $100, and I owe $110, how can I pay the debt ever?  

[FlipPro]

Can you show us your work, or atleast the source who is claiming that these debts can never be paid back?

Can we agree that the US Treasury creates all the currency that is in use for the United States?  Can we also agree that that money was lent out to the government with interest?

If so, what work do I need to show?   If all the money I have to pay off a debt is $100, and I owe $110, how can I pay the debt ever?  

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

[Vod]

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

Sorry about that.

 $100 <-- USD in existence
-$110 <-- USD owed to treasury
 ------
 ($10) <-- Debt that cannot be paid off.

[TKE406]

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

It's not a chart, but it tells you in order who the biggest holders of US debt are.

[SpaceLord]

We started out as the smallest government this world has ever seen and consequently we have ended up as the largest.

Wha? I can't, I don't, ummmm...

When were we the smallest government? Source?

[RandyFolds]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. You seem to ignore that simple fact throughout your analysis.

[elk-tamer]

You're wrong. You are using some preatty fuzzy math to say the least.

All money in the US economy came from the treasury, and it was lent out with interest.  The debt can never be paid back in full - mathematically impossible.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. You seem to ignore that simple fact throughout your analysis.

Explaining why Jafm is wrong to yourself is easy, the real trick is finding a way of convincing him.

[Vod]

Explaining why Jafm is wrong to yourself is easy, the real trick is finding a way of convincing him.

Not really, I'm very open minded.  I've presented my simple argument and no one has yet presented a counter argument to show where I could be wrong.      (BTW I don't consider "you're wrong!" to be a convincing argument)  

You said it best - "Are you imagining dollars as debt that has to "paid back", and an expanding economy as a disruption of the balance sheet between dollars created and dollars owed?".  That is how I see it... is that wrong?  

[elk-tamer]

Not really, I'm very open minded.  I've presented my simple argument and no one has yet presented a counter argument to show where I could be wrong.      (BTW I don't consider "you're wrong!" to be a convincing argument)  

You said it best - "Are you imagining dollars as debt that has to "paid back", and an expanding economy as a disruption of the balance sheet between dollars created and dollars owed?".  That is how I see it... is that wrong?  

Right, unless the counter argument uses the definitions you use,  it's not really useful.

I like the analogy of money being a measure of velocity instead of a inventory count. If there's only $1 in existence, but it get passed around between 10 people, $10 have been spent. i.e. the GDP isn't a measure of how many dollars there are, but of how many are spent.

If $110 is owed back to somewhere but only $100 are in existence, as long as the money continues to circulate the difference is accounted for.

Bob has a hammer. His neighbor John borrows it but Bob wants 2 hammers back in return(interest). John uses the hammer to build a fence for Fred, in exchange for a hammer. Fred buys Bob's hammer from him to pay John for the fence building. John gives Bob his hammer back, waits for Fred to get it back from Bob. Then gives it to Bob again, paying him the interest.

[Vod]

I like the analogy of money being a measure of velocity instead of a inventory count. If there's only $1 in existence, but it get passed around between 10 people, $10 have been spent. i.e. the GDP isn't a measure of how many dollars there are, but of how many are spent.

OK, so $10 are spent, but there is still only that $1 in existence. How are you going to pay the $1.10 the treasury wants back if you only have that dollar - a shortage of $0.10?  It can't be from income tax.  If the second  person had to pay $0.10 tax when he made that $1.00, then he would only have $0.90 to spend on the third person.  There still is only the $1 in existence.

So the second person has $0.90 and he wants to buy something for $1.00 off the third person.  This is impossible unless the treasury releases another $0.10.  Now there is $1.10 in existence but the treasury wants $1.21 back - a shortage of $0.11.

[RandyFolds]

I like the analogy of money being a measure of velocity instead of a inventory count. If there's only $1 in existence, but it get passed around between 10 people, $10 have been spent. i.e. the GDP isn't a measure of how many dollars there are, but of how many are spent.

OK, so $10 are spent, but there is still only that $1 in existence. How are you going to pay the $1.10 the treasury wants back if you only have that dollar - a shortage of $0.10?  It can't be from income tax.  If the second  person had to pay $0.10 tax when he made that $1.00, then he would only have $0.90 to spend on the third person.  There still is only the $1 in existence.

So the second person has $0.90 and he wants to buy something for $1.00 off the third person.  This is impossible unless the treasury releases another $0.10.  Now there is $1.10 in existence but the treasury wants $1.21 back - a shortage of $0.11.

In the course of that dollar being spent ten times, services, consumables and durable goods that are worth money are procured and produced. Cash is not the only part of the game. Cash buys the pump to get the oil out of the ground that in turn is sold for cash... In your system, deflation would run rampant and drive the value of the one dollar in existence through the roof. Every gallon of gasoline that is refined is four more dollars in circulation, though that is not the best example as it is consumable. Think about gold...another ounce found in a mining operation doesn't drop the price of gold in proportion to the overall supply...more dollars are being pulled from the ground.

Printing new money (in theory...I'm not backing the fed here...) merely matches the influx of value from harvested resources and keeps prices stable. A shortage (your missing $.10) doesn't physically exist, it is merely an artifact of the books.

Elk-tamer essentially elaborated on what I meant when I said that it's not zero-sum.

[Vod]

I understand the value of goods and services that are created, but at the end of the day, there is still not enough of the legal currency ($1.10) to pay back what is owed to the treasury.  ($1.21).  

The economy is very complicated and I still don't understand what you guys mean (artifact of the books?), but I don't want to risk alienating people by continuing the discussion further.  I'm honestly not trying to be thick headed or closed minded. Thanks all for trying to explain it to me.  

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Random claims? Please elaborate.... I was going to post the definition of the word fair as fundamental as it seems that is the the problem. I guess if I had a graph on what "fair" is then I could be considered correct. I thought I was being nice..  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fair

So we are redefining the word "fair" here? You think it's fair to pull the plug on seniors, take away college grants from students, and rip unemployment from the unemployed while we continue to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to Billionaires? Ever heard of "fair" shared sacrifice?

Paul Ryan sure has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5kgnE1Xvec

This guy gets it.

shackleford, what you are advocating is the opposite of "fair". The billionaires have had their time, as a society we need to care for our other citizens like the elderly, our students, and those down-on-their-luck individuals on welfare instead. If not, our society will collapse into some awful hellhole catering to the whims of the elite.

Some of the most Libertarian country’s on Earth, are the biggest 3'rd world retched hell holes. I am not promoting full-blown socialism, because I do not believe that is the answer. Socialism usually leads to fascism because of the human ego that lies within all of us. The ego is dangerous, and that is why I believe in a perfect balance only granted by the development of new age technologies like Bitcoin. I believe that human beings are inherently imperfect, and I believe that machines have been created to fix these imperfections that we have philosophically imposed on ourselves.

Bitcoin is the first of many cryptographic currencies that will help aide in this balancing act that the world is currently going through. We need to begin to appreciate our world status and progress this planet to a whole new level. We need to push the limits of the 1’st world and literally leave our current reality behind. I have been working on a post for about a month, and I think I am going to have to publish it soon, since the times are getting harder. It will be a fully detailed article on what I personally think Bitcoins are, and how I think the United States government and all of its people can benefit greatly from a new age Internet currency. We used to own the Internet back in the 90’s, now it’s our turn to do it again!

Well congrats, you might be the most reasonable person on these forums. Sorry I was a little harsh on you, I can't wait for the writeup

+1

Count me in for "can't wait for the writeup".

[shackleford]

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

Sorry about that.

 $100 <-- USD in existence
-$110 <-- USD owed to treasury
 ------
 ($10) <-- Debt that cannot be paid off.

I was thinking about this the other day.. Money is also created when banks lend(create) money. When people borrow money it gets put into the economy.. if later that debt is forgiven in bankruptcy or death or whatever that money is still in the system.
 
As to the taxes it is pointless to argue because ... some people just will never get it and life is to short.

[FlipPro]

WHERE IS YOUR MATH SIR?
I asked you a simple question.

Sorry about that.

 $100 <-- USD in existence
-$110 <-- USD owed to treasury
 ------
 ($10) <-- Debt that cannot be paid off.

I was thinking about this the other day.. Money is also created when banks lend(create) money. When people borrow money it gets put into the economy.. if later that debt is forgiven in bankruptcy or death or whatever that money is still in the system.
 
As to the taxes it is pointless to argue because ... some people just will never get it and life is to short.

While I agree that some people may "never" get it, the time is approaching for us to have a serious adult conversation about these things. Debt is a serious problem, and we can't go about slashing it on the backs of our most vulnerable citizens. That is some backwards sick ideology if you ask me, and if anything it's anti-modern...

[makomk]

I understand the value of goods and services that are created, but at the end of the day, there is still not enough of the legal currency ($1.10) to pay back what is owed to the treasury.  ($1.21).  

You don't need to pay it back. You probably don't even want to pay it back. If you pay it back, deflation sets in and the economy implodes as there's suddenly not enough money in circulation to do anything.