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Author Topic: The Space Industry: An example of why governments fail and freedom prevails.  (Read 9809 times)
Rassah
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July 28, 2011, 04:54:53 PM
 #181

Look at the private services you buy (insurances, products, etc). How many of those products have you seen advertisements for?

Geico lizard, Flo the Progressive insurance lady, hell I barely even watch commercial TV anymore, but there's two off the top of my head. You're also paying for ads in trade magazines and other places you probably never look.

Hmm, I don't use any of those companies for my car insurance. I use Blue Cross blue Shield for health, and haven't seen them advertise in for ever. My home owner's insurance is from State Farm, who also almost never advertise. The banks and credit cards I use are usually not ones I get advertisements from. My bank that I refinanced with, or opened a home equity loan with, does not advertise. My phone service from Skype doesn't send me adverts. I get some advertising from competing internet and electric companies, but upon researching their price structure, I find out they are more expensive, and dismiss them. Places where I shop for groceries don't advertise. Neither does my car mechanic. Most of the services I use I know about either due to word of mouth, or because I went online and did some research to find what kind of business and prices are out there. So, that's kind of my point. People who get duped will get to pay higher advertising costs. People who have learned their lesson will not.

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Rassah
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July 28, 2011, 04:58:13 PM
 #182

I hate those sorts of surveys, because they're so easy to sway, just by carefully picking the people you ask.

I'd agree with you if it were some no-name survey company, but Pew Research's methodology is generally agreed to be top-notch, and I don't really see what they'd have to gain by promoting Communism.

It's not "who did the research," it's "is the opinion or conclusion valid." If you polled the US population about crime rates, you will find that the majority of the population says that crime rates have gone up in the last 20 years. If you look at actual police statistics, you'll find out that people's opinion is completely wrong.

and btw, despite what people's opinions are, Poland is way better now than it was under Communism. The reason people's opinion is divided on this is because USSR was never pushing as hard on Poland as it did on it's other republics, actually allowing Poland to retain some sense of property and economy.
As for the rest of the countries, it's not really fair to compare how things were under USSR versus how they are now. Once "free market" took over, the corruption was rampant, and those corrupt people received ownership of large portions of their country's economy and production thanks to their previous connections. So now, the people in charge of their government and corporations are largely the same communists who were in charge of the government under USSR.

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July 28, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
 #183

Which is why sadly, socialism/communism will never work in the real world. It fails to take into account the inherent flaw in humanity.

You can easily make the same argument about capitalism or anything else. Nepotism, cronyism, etc, will always be with us. In a truly merit-based system, what are the odds that we'd have multiple father/son presidents? All you can do is try to be as fair as possible. Socialism attempts that, even if it doesn't always come out right. Our system doesn't even pretend to try.

Saying "socialism fails because it doesn't take human nature into account" is about as cliched and shallow as saying "but all of those countries FAILED!" and does a pretty good job of marking the speaker as someone who knows very little or nothing about the subject.

Quote from: Rassah
and btw, despite what people's opinions are, Poland is way better now than it was under Communism.

I don't know if you can't read graphs or what, but Poland was one of the only two countries where people think they're better off now than under Communism.

Quote
As for the rest of the countries, it's not really fair to compare how things were under USSR versus how they are now. Once "free market" took over, the corruption was rampant, and those corrupt people received ownership of large portions of their country's economy and production thanks to their previous connections. So now, the people in charge of their government and corporations are largely the same communists who were in charge of the government under USSR.

See, here's your free market with massive corruption, and you're still trying to blame it on the Communists, 22 years after their governments fell. And you're telling the people that actually remember Communism and lived under both systems that their lives are better now because you know better... having never lived under it yourself, and probably not even having visited their countries. Isn't that awfully presumptuous? What would you say if those people started making assumptions about your life based on things that they figure must be true without ever having been to the U.S?

Quote from: Rassah
Hmm, I don't use any of those companies for my car insurance. I use Blue Cross blue Shield for health, and haven't seen them advertise in for ever. My home owner's insurance is from State Farm, who also almost never advertise. The banks and credit cards I use are usually not ones I get advertisements from. My bank that I refinanced with, or opened a home equity loan with, does not advertise. My phone service from Skype doesn't send me adverts. I get some advertising from competing internet and electric companies, but upon researching their price structure, I find out they are more expensive, and dismiss them. Places where I shop for groceries don't advertise. Neither does my car mechanic. Most of the services I use I know about either due to word of mouth, or because I went online and did some research to find what kind of business and prices are out there. So, that's kind of my point. People who get duped will get to pay higher advertising costs. People who have learned their lesson will not.

I have literally no clue what you're trying to get at here. That some businesses don't advertise? Is that supposed to be some sort of revelation?

The average American is exposed to over 3,000 advertisements a day. It's a $150 billion a year industry in the U.S. alone. Just the insurance industry spent $4.15 billion on advertising in 2009, double what they spent in 2000. And State Farm, who almost never advertise according to you, was responsible for $514 million of that.

http://adage.com/article/news/insurance-industry-s-4-billion-advertising-brawl/148992/
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July 28, 2011, 07:34:38 PM
 #184

State Farm, who also almost never advertise.

you have an interesting definition of "almost never".  either that or you don't watch TV.  i'm not even in the US and i see their ads all the time.
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July 28, 2011, 09:43:51 PM
 #185

Quote from: Rassah
and btw, despite what people's opinions are, Poland is way better now than it was under Communism.

I don't know if you can't read graphs or what, but Poland was one of the only two countries where people think they're better off now than under Communism.

The results were close to 50/50. It's quite better than that.

See, here's your free market with massive corruption, and you're still trying to blame it on the Communists, 22 years after their governments fell. And you're telling the people that actually remember Communism and lived under both systems that their lives are better now because you know better... having never lived under it yourself, and probably not even having visited their countries. Isn't that awfully presumptuous? What would you say if those people started making assumptions about your life based on things that they figure must be true without ever having been to the U.S?

Few things. First, 22 years, after 70 years of oppressive rule that killed off anyone who was considered smart/intelligent, brainwashed the populace with propaganda, and killed anyone who dared to even attempt anything that resembled capitalism, isn't all that much. Second, everyone with any brains got the hell out of there as soon as they could (MASSIVE brain-drain in the late 80's and 90's), meaning most of those left are ones who were dumb enough not to know better, and preferred the socialist/communist system. Three, there are LOTS of people still living there, and outside of there, who remember the communist system quite well. 20 years means someone who is 30 still remembers it. And last, "presumptuous? LOL! I'm actually one of those "brain drains" and left in '89. So, no, I'm not "presuming," I remember what it was like, heard many stories from my grandparents and parents, and keep in touch with family members and friends who are still there. No presuming here.

I have literally no clue what you're trying to get at here. That some businesses don't advertise? Is that supposed to be some sort of revelation?

The average American is exposed to over 3,000 advertisements a day. It's a $150 billion a year industry in the U.S. alone. Just the insurance industry spent $4.15 billion on advertising in 2009, double what they spent in 2000. And State Farm, who almost never advertise according to you, was responsible for $514 million of that.

You claim that in an unregulated free market, advertising will go through the roof. I'm pointing out that there is already a lot of advertising out there, but really not that much for products we do use, and you don't have to buy from overpriced companies who spend too much on advertising, since it's extremely easy to price shop.

rainingbitcoins
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July 29, 2011, 03:52:24 AM
 #186

The results were close to 50/50. It's quite better than that.

And according to you it's because only dumb people are left? Seriously? Asking someone if their lives were better now or 20 years ago is about the simplest question you can manage. Even the dumbest person you can find has the ability to remember if their life was in danger every single day. If it was all as bad as you say, you'd think it would be more like 90/10 or worse.

8% of people in Hungary think life is better now than under Communism.  12% in Ukraine, 13% in Bulgaria, 23% in Lithuania - you know, you have a really weird definition of 50/50.

Quote
Few things. First, 22 years, after 70 years of oppressive rule that killed off anyone who was considered smart/intelligent, brainwashed the populace with propaganda, and killed anyone who dared to even attempt anything that resembled capitalism, isn't all that much. Second, everyone with any brains got the hell out of there as soon as they could (MASSIVE brain-drain in the late 80's and 90's), meaning most of those left are ones who were dumb enough not to know better, and preferred the socialist/communist system. Three, there are LOTS of people still living there, and outside of there, who remember the communist system quite well. 20 years means someone who is 30 still remembers it. And last, "presumptuous? LOL! I'm actually one of those "brain drains" and left in '89. So, no, I'm not "presuming," I remember what it was like, heard many stories from my grandparents and parents, and keep in touch with family members and friends who are still there. No presuming here.

That's pretty cold of you to call your own family and friends "dumb enough not to know better". And the situation wasn't the same in every country, so you can hardly speak to all of them. Not to mention the fact that when a totalitarian Communist country commits abuses, we blame it on Communism, yet when an oppressive government in a more market-based system commits the same sorts of abuses, capitalism never seems to get any of the blame. Hell, we supported coups that put monsters like Pinochet in power just to get rid of inoffensive leaders who happened to lean a bit too far left for America's tastes.

Quote
You claim that in an unregulated free market, advertising will go through the roof. I'm pointing out that there is already a lot of advertising out there, but really not that much for products we do use, and you don't have to buy from overpriced companies who spend too much on advertising, since it's extremely easy to price shop.

There's really not that much advertising for the products we do use? Seriously? Then why does it exist at all? Also, I don't really trust your judgement on which of the products you use have commericials, since half-a-billion-dollar ad campaigns seem to slip by without you noticing them at all.

edit: P.S. your avatar is creepy as hell, are you a furry?
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July 29, 2011, 02:28:29 PM
 #187

Not to mention the fact that when a totalitarian Communist country commits abuses, we blame it on Communism, yet when an oppressive government in a more market-based system commits the same sorts of abuses, capitalism never seems to get any of the blame.

Did you just happen to miss the entire point where I said that the people currently in charge of the government agencies and the biggest businesses in Russia are the same communists who used to run USSR 20 years ago???

Rassah
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July 29, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
 #188

Quote from: Rassah
and btw, despite what people's opinions are, Poland is way better now than it was under Communism.

I don't know if you can't read graphs or what, but Poland was one of the only two countries where people think they're better off now than under Communism.

The results were close to 50/50. It's quite better than that.

And according to you it's because only dumb people are left? Seriously? Asking someone if their lives were better now or 20 years ago is about the simplest question you can manage. Even the dumbest person you can find has the ability to remember if their life was in danger every single day. If it was all as bad as you say, you'd think it would be more like 90/10 or worse.

8% of people in Hungary think life is better now than under Communism.  12% in Ukraine, 13% in Bulgaria, 23% in Lithuania - you know, you have a really weird definition of 50/50.

If you are going to quote my 50/50, and point out how it's ridiculous that I think it's 50/50, please quote the whole thing. I was referring specifically to Poland.

As for the rest, people had guaranteed employment, had their apartment provided for them, had free healthcare, free education, cheap transportation ($0.05 one way on metro), cheap food (loaf of bread $0.20), and calm, safe neighborhoods. Now they have to pay rent or mortgage, pay money to get decent healthcare, transportation and food are much more expensive, and crime and burglaries are rampant.
What those people forget about their past "comfortable" life is that:
They used to have to live on $320 a month (combined salary of both my parents working high up at a biotech lab), and now earn $2,000 or more
To get an appartnemt used to mean you have to get on a 10+year waiting list, and most lived in a cramped apartments all together with their parents and grandparents
The quality of free healthcare they get now hasn't changed. They just realized how horrible it was now that they can compare it to type you pay for (my dad had to have his appendix removed under USSR. They only went as far as sterilizing the tools, but didn't give him any anesthetic.)
Food was cheap, but not available. The stories about standing in line are true. If you heard that a local grocer is getting potatoes, or anything fancier, that day, you got in line at 6 or 5 in the morning to make sure you got some. Now, prices are higher, but also because you actually have options and see how much things really cost.
Neighborhoods were calm, safe, and quiet, but really only in people's heads. There were still drunks, burglars, and rapists around, though not as many. The reason was that people were really scared of the government, which can come, arrest you, and send you to a work camp for whatever reason. So, really, the dark, hidden, and without cause threat got replaced by blatant, visible, and obvious threat. At least this threat is visible enough to avoid.
Public transportation and education are still top notch though, so can't fault those.
Really, it's a case of "'mo money 'mo problems" and "ignorance is bliss"

Also, remember how it was MUCH better here in America in the 50's? All the old people have such nostalgia for it. Never mind the war, the rampant racism and misogynism, and all the other bs people had to deal with.

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