[ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link

[smoothie]

Which exchanger will be the next big gateway?

- BTC-e
- mcxNOW
- Mtgox ...

None because they know it's a bad idea to support Ripple.

Myth: Ripple is decentralized, or open sourcing Ripple will make it decentralized

Ripple was designed around centralization. The network consensus is built upon trust because they're Ripple Labs and they said so, instead of trust because of proof of work or expense of computational power like Bitcoin. The currency is built upon because gateways said so, instead of cryptographic proof or the decentralized mining process. Don't forget all XRPs (Ripples) were premined - all 100 billion of them. Ripple calculates their market capitalization with all 100 billion XRPs, despite the fact that the vast majority are not in circulation.

How would you kill a decentralized internet currency? By making a centralized one, complete with infinite money printing via gateways, where you don't have control of your money (gateways can arbitrarily levy fees on your transfers of IOUs) and much much more.

Before you buy into the 'promises' of Ripple, learn about what Ripple actually is. It's distributed, like having load balancers. It's not decentralized by any stretch of the word, and open sourcing code that forces centralization does not mean anything.

Yeah, the main problem I see with Ripple is that it's probably a lot more centralized than it appears, even ignoring the issues with XRP distribution and source availability.

AFAICT, Ripple requires that your UNL:
- Contain entities that won't cooperate to defraud you.
- Contain entities that themselves have good UNLs, and the entities in their UNLs must have good UNLs, etc.
- Form a "good network". A UNL containing just your friends wouldn't form a good network because you wouldn't be linked well-enough to the rest of Ripple. Your section of the network might get into a situation where its idea of history will never converge with the rest of the network's idea of history.

As a result, I believe that Ripple can really only be used reliably and securely if everyone has pretty much the same UNL. It's probably OK to remove or add a handful of nodes to your UNL, but at least a big portion of it probably needs to remain the same between users. So this ends up being a distributed system, but not a decentralized one. Whoever decides who's on the canonical UNL has a lot of power over the network. Also, people generally can't be "full nodes" in Ripple and participate in the consensus process because full nodes need to be online all the time and in someone's UNL.

Despite this, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ripple grow over the next few years. A lot of people think that it's decentralized and safe, and if they use the default centralized Ripple configuration it probably will be safe and stable in the short-term, and it'll be a lot cheaper to transact using Ripple than with Bitcoin. But it won't actually be as decentralized or as robust as Bitcoin, and legal issues may bring the whole thing down eventually.

I think before people start congratulating the OP and their corporation on what you think just happened or is happening or what ripple is doing or is...

Do your research. Get educated and do your due diligence.

I will not touch ripple due to the fact that it is built around a centralized point of of possible failure: OpenCoin Inc.

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[NWO]

Which exchanger will be the next big gateway?

- BTC-e
- mcxNOW
- Mtgox ...

None because they know it's a bad idea to support Ripple.

Myth: Ripple is decentralized, or open sourcing Ripple will make it decentralized

Ripple was designed around centralization. The network consensus is built upon trust because they're Ripple Labs and they said so, instead of trust because of proof of work or expense of computational power like Bitcoin. The currency is built upon because gateways said so, instead of cryptographic proof or the decentralized mining process. Don't forget all XRPs (Ripples) were premined - all 100 billion of them. Ripple calculates their market capitalization with all 100 billion XRPs, despite the fact that the vast majority are not in circulation.

How would you kill a decentralized internet currency? By making a centralized one, complete with infinite money printing via gateways, where you don't have control of your money (gateways can arbitrarily levy fees on your transfers of IOUs) and much much more.

Before you buy into the 'promises' of Ripple, learn about what Ripple actually is. It's distributed, like having load balancers. It's not decentralized by any stretch of the word, and open sourcing code that forces centralization does not mean anything.

Yeah, the main problem I see with Ripple is that it's probably a lot more centralized than it appears, even ignoring the issues with XRP distribution and source availability.

AFAICT, Ripple requires that your UNL:
- Contain entities that won't cooperate to defraud you.
- Contain entities that themselves have good UNLs, and the entities in their UNLs must have good UNLs, etc.
- Form a "good network". A UNL containing just your friends wouldn't form a good network because you wouldn't be linked well-enough to the rest of Ripple. Your section of the network might get into a situation where its idea of history will never converge with the rest of the network's idea of history.

As a result, I believe that Ripple can really only be used reliably and securely if everyone has pretty much the same UNL. It's probably OK to remove or add a handful of nodes to your UNL, but at least a big portion of it probably needs to remain the same between users. So this ends up being a distributed system, but not a decentralized one. Whoever decides who's on the canonical UNL has a lot of power over the network. Also, people generally can't be "full nodes" in Ripple and participate in the consensus process because full nodes need to be online all the time and in someone's UNL.

Despite this, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ripple grow over the next few years. A lot of people think that it's decentralized and safe, and if they use the default centralized Ripple configuration it probably will be safe and stable in the short-term, and it'll be a lot cheaper to transact using Ripple than with Bitcoin. But it won't actually be as decentralized or as robust as Bitcoin, and legal issues may bring the whole thing down eventually.

I think before people start congratulating the OP and their corporation on what you think just happened or is happening or what ripple is doing or is...

Do your research. Get educated and do your due diligence.

I will not touch ripple due to the fact that it is built around a centralized point of of possible failure: OpenCoin Inc. RippleLabs Inc.

FTFY

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It's built on the majority of gateways, as it is about majority of nodes/miners on Bitcoin.

Here you trust the majority of miners, instead of the majority of gateways.

That's not how Ripple's UNL works. It's based on validators, not gateways. In addition, Bitcoin is not based on the majority of nodes or miners, it is based on a majority of combined difficulty. Miners in addition have very limited influencing ability - miners can only change the order of transactions, and only that. Miners cannot inflate the currency. Miners cannot change core network rules (whereas OpenCoin can, as seen by account / trust line reserve requirements).

It's the same trust that you give to exchanger now. BTC-e/Bitstamp/other can just steal all your money in few seconds.

BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about

Is Bitcoin so fragile that can be killed from the free market? Who here is against the free market?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question Are you against free speech?

[Sukrim]

Sooo... when will the source code for inputs.io be released?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Sooo... when will the source code for inputs.io be released?

When has Inputs advertised it as open source? 

OpenCoin / Ripple Labs has been doing it for something like a year now?

[Sukrim]

BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about

Please give an example how... it is NOT possible without compromising a lot of servers at the same time, more than what is needed for Bitcoin.

Edit:

Sooo... when will the source code for inputs.io be released?

When has Inputs advertised it as open source? 

OpenCoin / Ripple Labs has been doing it for something like a year now?

No, they provided code for the client already for a long time and have NOT advertised rippled as being Open Source until now.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about

Please give an example how... it is NOT possible without compromising a lot of servers at the same time, more than what is needed for Bitcoin.

1. Refuse to honor BTC withdrawals on Bitstamp. Requires two keystrokes - // to comment a line out.
2. Finished.

[Sukrim]

BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about

Please give an example how... it is NOT possible without compromising a lot of servers at the same time, more than what is needed for Bitcoin.

1. Refuse to honor BTC withdrawals on Bitstamp. Requires two keystrokes - // to comment a line out.
2. Finished.

You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Transit_Fees

A gateway is able to levy you a 100% transfer fee on their IOUs. Not only won't you be able to redeem the value they stand for, but you can't even transfer it.

You should spend more time reading the official ripple wiki, particularly:

Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.

[mah87]

You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Transit_Fees

A gateway is able to levy you a 100% transfer fee on their IOUs. Not only won't you be able to redeem the value they stand for, but you can't even transfer it.

You should spend more time reading the official ripple wiki, particularly:

Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.

SO WHAT ? What will you do when Mtgox or other plateforme will be shutdown by USA and that bitcoin value will come close to 0 because of that ?

Making efforts to be compliant and to insure that this network is not to fund alquaeda people is legit .

[Sukrim]

You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Transit_Fees

A gateway is able to levy you a 100% transfer fee on their IOUs. Not only won't you be able to redeem the value they stand for, but you can't even transfer it.

You should spend more time reading the official ripple wiki, particularly:

Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.

Well, I did read that (probably some time before you did...) - if my gateway does this, I can just get my lawyer and sue them for breach of contract as they are a legal entity in my jurisdiction. Quite different than "Bitcoin is not legal tender. As with any Bitcoin service, any storage on inputs.io is at the users own risk. Exchange rates are estimates only.", huh?

Still you did not explain how they would steal my BTC.Bitstamp that are sitting at an address without me doing anything...

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Well, I did read that (probably some time before you did...) - if my gateway does this, I can just get my lawyer and sue them for breach of contract as they are a legal entity in my jurisdiction.

Bitcoinica. Good luck, because you'll need it. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/bitcoinica-users-sue-for-460k-in-lost-bitcoins/

Keep in mind that if this was Bitstamp, 99%+ of Ripple BTCs would be vanished.

Still you did not explain how they would steal my BTC.Bitstamp that are sitting at an address without me doing anything...

Only semantics.

SO WHAT ? What will you do when Mtgox or other plateforme will be shutdown by USA and that bitcoin value will come close to 0 because of that ?

Making efforts to be compliant and to insure that this network is not to fund alquaeda people is legit .

Unfortunately MtGox isn't like HSBC who can launder billions of dollars to drug cartels and gets a slap on the wrist fine.

I also do not believe 'plateforme' like MtGox getting shut down (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/feds-seize-funds-of-largest-bitcoin-exchange) (http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/23/feds-seize-another-2-1-million-from-mt-gox-adding-up-to-5-million/) is going to cause BTC to go close to 0. Last time I checked, MtGox is complying with US AML/KYC requirements and BTC is trading at ~$125.

It seems like Ripple users use tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy) and appeal to emotion (THINK OF "ALQUAEDA") instead of backing up their statements with historical precedents and logical reasoning.

[HostFat]

That's not how Ripple's UNL works. It's based on validators, not gateways.

You as gateway (everyone can be one) chose who are your validators. To be a validators you only need do run the Rippled, and be a trustful person.

If the majority of the Ripple gateway chose to NOT trust Opencoin validators, they simply can, and maintain the network active.
As much as Bitcoin users will stop to use/trust Bitcoin-Qt node for another one.

In addition, Bitcoin is not based on the majority of nodes or miners, it is based on a majority of combined difficulty.

Without the mining, gateways work as nodes/miners at the same time. They have the same functions for the safety of the network.

Miners in addition have very limited influencing ability - miners can only change the order of transactions, and only that.

They can also change the base of the protocol, and creating an hardfork.
It the same as the majority of the trustful gateway chose to disconnect from opencoin owned validators/gateways.

Miners cannot inflate the currency.

Neither can gateways, they can't inflate XRPs.
They have only power on the IOU that they gave you, only if you trust them.
When you look at Bitcoin on your Bitstamp wallet, they are also IOU, and they can steal them from you if they want.

Miners cannot change core network rules

Yes they can, just need to be the majority.

whereas OpenCoin can, as seen by account / trust line reserve requirements

They can as the Bitcoin dev team can, until the majority of the community trust them.

BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

They can steal them until your Bitcoin are on their pockets. When you use IOU Bitcoin from Bitstamp, they are like Bitstamp/BTC-e/Mtgox codes, so they can disable them if they want.
They won't be able to steal my IOU Therock Bitcoin if I don't trust them (give them the ability) to do it.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about

Is Bitcoin so fragile that can be killed from the free market? Who here is against the free market?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question Are you against free speech?

I see that you really understand how Ripple works, but you are trying to spreading misleading meaning/fud to force your way.
You are free to continue, as I'm free to say that I think that you are a liar and so I don't trust you.

[mah87]

Well, I did read that (probably some time before you did...) - if my gateway does this, I can just get my lawyer and sue them for breach of contract as they are a legal entity in my jurisdiction.

Bitcoinica. Good luck, because you'll need it. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/bitcoinica-users-sue-for-460k-in-lost-bitcoins/

Keep in mind that if this was Bitstamp, 99%+ of Ripple BTCs would be vanished.

SO WHAT ? What will you do when Mtgox or other plateforme will be shutdown by USA and that bitcoin value will come close to 0 because of that ?

Making efforts to be compliant and to insure that this network is not to fund alquaeda people is legit .

Unfortunately MtGox isn't like HSBC who can launder billions of dollars to drug cartels and gets a slap on the wrist fine.

I also do not believe 'plateforme' like MtGox getting shut down (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/feds-seize-funds-of-largest-bitcoin-exchange) (http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/23/feds-seize-another-2-1-million-from-mt-gox-adding-up-to-5-million/) is going to cause BTC to go close to 0. Last time I checked, MtGox is complying with US AML/KYC requirements and BTC is trading at ~$125.

It seems like Ripple users use tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy) and appeal to emotion (THINK OF "ALQUAEDA") instead of backing up their statements with historical precedents and logical reasoning.

The ONLY reason you want to shut down ripple is that you own A LOT OF BITCOINS and you are afraid that it's a threat to bitcoin value so you couldn't keep your bitcoin for several years without being worried either by tax or bitcoin value.

I hope you'll get sue by Ripple one day for such dumb accusation.

[ervalvola]

You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Transit_Fees

A gateway is able to levy you a 100% transfer fee on their IOUs. Not only won't you be able to redeem the value they stand for, but you can't even transfer it.

You should spend more time reading the official ripple wiki, particularly:

Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.

Well, I did read that (probably some time before you did...) - if my gateway does this, I can just get my lawyer and sue them for breach of contract as they are a legal entity in my jurisdiction. Quite different than "Bitcoin is not legal tender. As with any Bitcoin service, any storage on inputs.io is at the users own risk. Exchange rates are estimates only.", huh?

Still you did not explain how they would steal my BTC.Bitstamp that are sitting at an address without me doing anything...

Actually gateways must set "restricted holding" the very first time they issue an IOU. So, existing gateways can't actually restrict or freeze anything.

But i'm sure that TF does know that

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

That's not how Ripple's UNL works. It's based on validators, not gateways.

You as gateway (everyone can be one) chose who are your validators. To be a validators you only need do run the Rippled, and be a trustful person.

If the majority of the Ripple gateway chose to NOT trust Opencoin validators, they simply can, and maintain the network active.
As much as Bitcoin users will stop to use/trust Bitcoin-Qt node for another one.

That's not how it works.

Without the mining, gateways work as nodes/miners at the same time. They have the same functions for the safety of the network.

Did you mean validators?

They can also change the base of the protocol, and creating an hardfork.

That's not how it works. Miners cannot change what your client accepts as hard ground rules.

Neither can gateways, they can't inflate XRPs.

OpenCoin Inc can - for example, reducing transaction fees is inflating XRP.

They have only power on the IOU that they gave you, only if you trust them.

False. You don't have to directly trust them.

When you look at Bitcoin on your Bitstamp wallet, they are also IOU, and they can steal them from you if they want.

I agree! Please debate this point to Sukrim who still disagrees that Bitstamp can steal ripple BTC IOUs?

Yes they can, just need to be the majority.

No they can't. Your client will automatically reject anything that doesn't follow it's hard coded rules, majority or no majority.

They can as the Bitcoin dev team can, until the majority of the community trust them.

OpenCoin Inc's Ripple design and change process is very much more internal compared to the Bitcoin core dev team. Just take a look yourself.

They can steal them until your Bitcoin are on their pockets. When you use IOU Bitcoin from Bitstamp, they are like Bitstamp/BTC-e/Mtgox codes, so they can disable them if they want.

Show me how I can keep BTC in my pockets with Ripple.

I see that you really understand how Ripple works, but you are trying to spreading misleading meaning/fud to force your way.

Please elaborate on misleading meaning and FUD. Preferably a point by point rebuttal, like this post.

You are free to continue, as I'm free to say that I think that you are a liar and so I don't trust you.

Calling me a liar without pointing out instances where I've lied may result in people thinking you are an idiot.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

The ONLY reason you want to shut down ripple is that you own A LOT OF BITCOINS and you are afraid that it's a threat to bitcoin value so you couldn't keep your bitcoin for several years without being worried either by tax or bitcoin value.

I hope you'll get sue by Ripple one day for such dumb accusation.

Do you have anything to comment on my previous response before jumping ahead? I don't think holding "A LOT OF BITCOINS" makes my factual arguments invalid.

Actually gateways must set "restricted holding" the very first time they issue an IOU. So, existing gateways can't actually restrict or freeze anything.

If a government knocks on Ripple Lab's door and mandates restricted holding, do you think code will stop them? With Bitcoin, people won't follow the fork. With Ripple, you're already following the fork.

You're forgetting OpenCoin validators may simply refuse to broadcast transactions.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Seeing as how you resort to attacking the opponent (Ad hominem) instead of what I'm actually saying, so what about your Dec 20 2012 message stating "BITCOIN IS DEAD" and that you're switching to mining Litecoin?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131809.msg1412058#msg1412058

[HostFat]

Seeing as how you resort to attacking the opponent (Ad hominem) instead of what I'm actually saying, so what about your Dec 20 2012 message stating "BITCOIN IS DEAD" and that you're switching to mining Litecoin?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131809.msg1412058#msg1412058

"Time to switch on litecoin. BITCOIN IS DEAD for normal miner"
It seems has a different meaning from only "BITCOIN IS DEAD".

It's now too easy to show that you are trying to mislead the meaning of words

After this, I'm out.

I can still talk about this with other people

[mah87]

JoelKatz answered EVERY POINT of your argumentation. If not go on ripple forum and ask. You won't do that because it would expose your lies and everybody could see that the ONLY point why you are hating ripple is because you are scared for the bitcoin value....


https://ripple.com/forum