Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

If a gateway is forced to do so because of legal reasons, they most likely will stop honoring their old IOUs for redemption and create new IOUs.

That's certainly possible. Gateways are, like all other businesses, required to follow the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate and must respond to court orders issued by courts of competent jurisdiction. The greater includes the lesser -- in theory a government could order a gateway to stop redeeming entirely. Basically, if you operate in an jurisdiction, the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine.

But bitcoin is innovative in the sense that accounts cannot be frozen. Perhaps you should take a read at the Bitcoin white paper, http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

You may point at XRP, however you've just answered that "the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine."

Ripple Labs may be forced to update ripple.com/client and the servers it connect to by a government.

Bitcoin core devs can only push out a new version of Bitcoin-Qt, yet nobody will migrate to it.

[1714307943]

1714307943

[smoothie]

Gold is just a promise to get something of actual value. I know you will say it has actual value but it has value for the same reason bitcoin has value because of our shared belief in its value.

People cant live in gold they cant eat gold you cant put it an engine and go places with it you cant burn it to warm yourself up if you where freezing to death you cant drink it if you dying from dehydration.

Like I said look up the credit theory of money.


 "The Credit Theory is this: that a sale and purchase is the exchange of a commodity for credit. From this main theory springs the sub-theory that the value of credit or money does not depend on the value of any metal or metals, but on the right which the creditor acquires to "payment," that is to say, to satisfaction for the credit, and on the obligation of the debtor to "pay" his debt and conversely on the right of the debtor to release himself from his debt by the tender of an equivalent debt owed by the creditor, and the obligation of the creditor to accept this tender in satisfaction of his credit."

There is a little bit of disagreement when it comes to commodity money like gold, but in reality no matter the medium of exchange it is just a promise that you will be able to get something that you value in exchange for giving up something to someone else that they value.

The problem with your statement that gold is a promise is flawed.

Gold itself does not promise to pay anything. It is a lump of metal. The FRN and other fiat promise to pay or "get"  you something for your paper.

The logic is pretty simple. One is man-made thus creating the air portion of a promise, while gold is just a piece of metal not promising anything.

Here is a good definition of PROMISE:

prom·ise
ˈpräməs/
noun
1.
a declaration or assurance that one will do a particular thing or that a particular thing will happen.
"what happened to all those firm promises of support?"
synonyms:   word (of honor), assurance, pledge, vow, guarantee, oath, bond, undertaking, agreement, commitment, contract, covenant More
the quality of potential excellence.
"he showed great promise even as a junior officer"
synonyms:   potential, ability, aptitude, capability, capacity More
an indication that something specified is expected or likely to occur.
"the promise of peace"
synonyms:   indication, hint, suggestion, sign More
verb
verb: promise; 3rd person present: promises; past tense: promised; past participle: promised; gerund or present participle: promising
1.
assure someone that one will definitely do, give, or arrange something; undertake or declare that something will happen.
"he promised to forward my mail"
synonyms:   give one's word, swear, pledge, vow, undertake, guarantee, contract, engage, give an assurance, commit oneself, bind oneself, swear/take an oath, covenant; More
archaic
pledge (someone, esp. a woman) to marry someone else; betroth.
"I've been promised to him for years"
2.
give good grounds for expecting (a particular occurrence or situation).
"forthcoming concerts promise a feast of music from around the world"
synonyms:   indicate, lead one to expect, point to, denote, signify, be a sign of, be evidence of, give hope of, bespeak, presage, augur, herald, bode, portend; More

a declaration or assurance that one will do a particular thing


The particular thing the lump of metal does is that it says I will be able to get what I desire in exchange for giving up something that you desire. That is the promise gold makes  

Where does it say that? lol

Is it written on every atom of gold? No. that is a person's perception. Not gold itself making promises. Let's get that straight.

 

I think more accurately saying that "A person who has gold may perceive it to purchase X or Y or Z."

Gold itself, once again, does not make the promise. It is a human assumption that it will get them something by trading the gold for something else.

No promises.

On FRN it says it right on the paper bill everything having to do with the "PROMISE" that backs it by the fed.

Gold does not have this thus it is an entirely different argument to say Gold promises anything.

[smoothie]

If a gateway is forced to do so because of legal reasons, they most likely will stop honoring their old IOUs for redemption and create new IOUs.

That's certainly possible. Gateways are, like all other businesses, required to follow the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate and must respond to court orders issued by courts of competent jurisdiction. The greater includes the lesser -- in theory a government could order a gateway to stop redeeming entirely. Basically, if you operate in an jurisdiction, the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine.

But bitcoin is innovative in the sense that accounts cannot be frozen. Perhaps you should take a read at the Bitcoin white paper, http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

You may point at XRP, however you've just answered that "the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine."

Ripple Labs may be forced to update ripple.com/client and the servers it connect to by a government.

Bitcoin core devs can only push out a new version of Bitcoin-Qt, yet nobody will migrate to it.

Right, they have to choose to use what the devs push out.

[sublime5447]

Yes that is the shared perspective between people transacting for gold.

So ripple and the ripple network is basically worthless to me.  Glad I got to the bottom of that.  

On FRN it says it right on the paper bill everything having to do with the "PROMISE" that backs it by the fed.

Gold does not have this thus it is an entirely different argument to say Gold promises anything.

ridiculous line of reasoning right here.  

I guess if I minted a piece of gold with a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

If a gateway is forced to do so because of legal reasons, they most likely will stop honoring their old IOUs for redemption and create new IOUs.

That's certainly possible. Gateways are, like all other businesses, required to follow the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate and must respond to court orders issued by courts of competent jurisdiction. The greater includes the lesser -- in theory a government could order a gateway to stop redeeming entirely. Basically, if you operate in an jurisdiction, the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine.

But bitcoin is innovative in the sense that accounts cannot be frozen. Perhaps you should take a read at the Bitcoin white paper, http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

You may point at XRP, however you've just answered that "the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine."

Ripple Labs may be forced to update ripple.com/client and the servers it connect to by a government.

Bitcoin core devs can only push out a new version of Bitcoin-Qt, yet nobody will migrate to it.

Right, they have to choose to use what the devs push out.

Meanwhile, for Ripple, the majority of the network / consensus uses ripple.com/client. You could build rippled and somehow get the majority of the users to switch, but..

[smoothie]

Yes that is the shared perspective between people transacting for gold.

So ripple and the ripple network is basically worthless to me.  Glad I got to the bottom of that.  

On FRN it says it right on the paper bill everything having to do with the "PROMISE" that backs it by the fed.

Gold does not have this thus it is an entirely different argument to say Gold promises anything.

ridiculous line of reasoning right here.  

Hardly ridiculous when it basically debunks your comment that "gold makes a promise", when in fact it is an assumption on the part of the holder of gold that it can buy something for them.

Still...no promise.

[sublime5447]

I guess if I minted a piece of gold with a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

[smoothie]

I guess if I minted a piece of goldwith a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

You made a statement I debunked it. Moving on...with my "ridiculous" reasoning and logic.

[sublime5447]

Avoiding regulation is not one of our goals. In fact, we're working very hard to figure out how everyone from individuals to financial institutions can use crypto-currencies while complying with existing regulations

Is this not a deal breaker for anyone else? Shit this is the kinda problem I was talking about. You guys are hung up on lines of code, dude comes out and says this and all I hear is crickets

Just so I dont assume anything...what is your problem with it?

What was your assumption? Is that not a problem for you?

[JoelKatz]

So if accounts can be frozen ....

remind me how this is any better than the current banking system that does that too?

Not accounts, balances. Nobody can freeze your account, and the freeze feature (if it was implemented) would only freeze a single balance, not an entire account.

In any event, here's a repeat of my explanation in case you missed it:

The "freeze" ability hasn't been implemented due to lack of demand. The restrict ability is implemented, but no gateways (that I know of, anyway) currently use it. These options have to be enabled for an account prior to any assets being issued by that account. So if a gateway chooses to use either of these features, everyone will know it before they choose to use that gateway. We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple. We want to enable people to do what they want to do. Of course, we do want everyone to know what they're getting into and we want the rules to be hard to change after the game has started.

[sublime5447]

I guess if I minted a piece of goldwith a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

You made a statement I debunked it. Moving on...with my "ridiculous" reasoning and logic.

Sure you did. Try reading debunking economics by steve keen, followed by the new depression by richard duncan. Then you might actually understand the real problem with the global economy and not make statements like the problem with the current monetary system is it is debt based all monetary systems are debt based money is debt or credit or an iou or a promise how ever you want to look at it    

"Innes goes on to note that a major problem in getting the public to understand the extent to which monetary systems are debt based is the challenge in persuading them that "things are not the way they seem"

[smoothie]

Avoiding regulation is not one of our goals. In fact, we're working very hard to figure out how everyone from individuals to financial institutions can use crypto-currencies while complying with existing regulations

Is this not a deal breaker for anyone else? Shit this is the kinda problem I was talking about. You guys are hung up on lines of code, dude comes out and says this and all I hear is crickets

Just so I dont assume anything...what is your problem with it?

What was your assumption? Is that not a problem for you?

There was no assumption. Hence my comment. Get it?

[smoothie]

I guess if I minted a piece of goldwith a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

You made a statement I debunked it. Moving on...with my "ridiculous" reasoning and logic.

Sure you did. Try reading debunking economics by steve keen, followed by the new depression by richard duncan. Then you might actually understand the real problem with the global economy and not make statements like the problem with the current monetary system is it is debt based all monetary systems are debt based money is debt or credit or an iou or a promise how ever you want to look at it   

If you missed it I already said I agree with you on the part where our current IOU system is broken. You claimed Gold is a form of IOU where gold makes a promise.

If you still can't see what I was getting at, there isn't much more I can say to get through to you. Moving on...

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

So if accounts can be frozen ....

remind me how this is any better than the current banking system that does that too?

Not accounts, balances. Nobody can freeze your account, and the freeze feature (if it was implemented) would only freeze a single balance, not an entire account.

In any event, here's a repeat of my explanation in case you missed it:

The "freeze" ability hasn't been implemented due to lack of demand. The restrict ability is implemented, but no gateways (that I know of, anyway) currently use it. These options have to be enabled for an account prior to any assets being issued by that account. So if a gateway chooses to use either of these features, everyone will know it before they choose to use that gateway. We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple. We want to enable people to do what they want to do. Of course, we do want everyone to know what they're getting into and we want the rules to be hard to change after the game has started.

Would you refute my description of this feature as a visible backdoor, similar to Lotus Notes's NSA backdoor in certain versions which allows the NSA to crack it 16 million times faster than anyone else?

And for semantics, a freeze can freeze multiple balances, not just one.

[smoothie]

So if accounts can be frozen ....

remind me how this is any better than the current banking system that does that too?

Not accounts, balances. Nobody can freeze your account, and the freeze feature (if it was implemented) would only freeze a single balance, not an entire account.

In any event, here's a repeat of my explanation in case you missed it:

The "freeze" ability hasn't been implemented due to lack of demand. The restrict ability is implemented, but no gateways (that I know of, anyway) currently use it. These options have to be enabled for an account prior to any assets being issued by that account. So if a gateway chooses to use either of these features, everyone will know it before they choose to use that gateway. We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple. We want to enable people to do what they want to do. Of course, we do want everyone to know what they're getting into and we want the rules to be hard to change after the game has started.

The important part of an account I would think is what's in it...i.e. Balances. Money. Currency. etc.

Who cares if you can still access your account but not move the balance(s). If your balance is frozen that's no better than current banking systems that do the same thing..only they call it "freezing your account".

[sublime5447]

So if accounts can be frozen ....

remind me how this is any better than the current banking system that does that too?

Not accounts, balances. Nobody can freeze your account, and the freeze feature (if it was implemented) would only freeze a single balance, not an entire account.

In any event, here's a repeat of my explanation in case you missed it:

The "freeze" ability hasn't been implemented due to lack of demand. The restrict ability is implemented, but no gateways (that I know of, anyway) currently use it. These options have to be enabled for an account prior to any assets being issued by that account. So if a gateway chooses to use either of these features, everyone will know it before they choose to use that gateway. We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple. We want to enable people to do what they want to do. Of course, we do want everyone to know what they're getting into and we want the rules to be hard to change after the game has started.

We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple

Which is it Joel are you working busily to comply with regulations or are you gonna let people do as they please?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

If anyone is wondering why account freezing by banks/gateways is a big deal, look at these:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitspend-ceases-trading-due-to-frozen-accounts/

http://www.coindesk.com/commonwealth-bank-closes-coinjars-business-and-founders-personal-accounts/

http://thoughtsonliberty.com/biggest-bitcoin-account-frozen-by-the-united-states-government

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ke0ro/commonwealth_bank_of_australia_closes_personal/

Their Bitcoins were not affected. Now, if they held Ripple BTC instead of Bitcoins..

[sublime5447]

I guess if I minted a piece of goldwith a promise on it you could open you mind a little. Think about what I am saying. That money is debt and the problem with the monetary system is not that it debt based but a ponzi scheme

You made a statement I debunked it. Moving on...with my "ridiculous" reasoning and logic.

Sure you did. Try reading debunking economics by steve keen, followed by the new depression by richard duncan. Then you might actually understand the real problem with the global economy and not make statements like the problem with the current monetary system is it is debt based all monetary systems are debt based money is debt or credit or an iou or a promise how ever you want to look at it    

If you missed it I already said I agree with you on the part where our current IOU system is broken. You claimed Gold is a form of IOU where gold makes a promise.

If you still can't see what I was getting at, there isn't much more I can say to get through to you. Moving on...

Right we agree that the current system is broken, but for different reasons you say it is broken because it is debt based i say that all money is debt based even gold. That ALL money is a promise or an IOU

"Innes goes on to note that a major problem in getting the public to understand the extent to which monetary systems are debt based is the challenge in persuading them that "things are not the way they seem"

Graeber echoes earlier theorists such as Innes by saying that during these eras population perception was that money derived its value from the precious metals of which the coins were made,[6] but that even in these periods money is more accurately understood as debt.

"When you make a promise to someone, it is equivalent to you taking a debt"
Moving on..

[sublime5447]

If anyone is wondering why account freezing by banks/gateways is a big deal, look at these:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitspend-ceases-trading-due-to-frozen-accounts/

http://www.coindesk.com/commonwealth-bank-closes-coinjars-business-and-founders-personal-accounts/

http://thoughtsonliberty.com/biggest-bitcoin-account-frozen-by-the-united-states-government

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ke0ro/commonwealth_bank_of_australia_closes_personal/

Their Bitcoins were not affected. Now, if they held Ripple BTC instead of Bitcoins..

Not looking good.

Why didnt you start here TF? Shit if you wanted to debunk ripple start here.

[JoelKatz]

Which is it Joel are you working busily to comply with regulations or are you gonna let people do as they please?

There's really almost no conflict. Satoshi didn't violate any regulations when he made Bitcoin, so far as I know. Yet he built a system that lets people do as they please.