CEX.IO

[pacojones]

I've been mining with cex.io for about a week and I'm seeing VERY high stale counts for my ghash.io account and very high duplicate counts for my KNC miner.  Overall the performance is what I expected but I'm wondering if there is anything I can/should do about the high stale and duplicate counts??!!

[juhakall]

I've been mining with cex.io for about a week and I'm seeing VERY high stale counts for my ghash.io account and very high duplicate counts for my KNC miner.  Overall the performance is what I expected but I'm wondering if there is anything I can/should do about the high stale and duplicate counts??!!

I've read about this problem with KnC hardware, and it's most likely harmless. Only thing that matters is how many valid shares you end up sending to the pool. IIRC the firmware just doesn't clear its results sometimes, so cgminer thinks the same old result is a new one. No work is wasted when that share is sent again, but it ends up in the duplicate statistics.

[kmtan]

i lost value of the ghash drop too fash...vs the ROI of mining...

sad..

[SendCookies]

i lost value of the ghash drop too fash...vs the ROI of mining...

sad..

Join the club. but really it's hard to tell at the price of btc is jumping. So, in term of actual $ investment you should be ahead a lil. You won't get a true gauge of mining until btc is stable in price for a long period of time. GO BTC!!!

[juhakall]

i lost value of the ghash drop too fash...vs the ROI of mining...

sad..

Join the club. but really it's hard to tell at the price of btc is jumping. So, in term of actual $ investment you should be ahead a lil. You won't get a true gauge of mining until btc is stable in price for a long period of time. GO BTC!!!

You can't buy CEX.IO hashrate with dollars. You have to convert your USD to BTC first, and then spend it so you can earn less BTC...

[chadwickx16]

i lost value of the ghash drop too fash...vs the ROI of mining...

sad..

Join the club. but really it's hard to tell at the price of btc is jumping. So, in term of actual $ investment you should be ahead a lil. You won't get a true gauge of mining until btc is stable in price for a long period of time. GO BTC!!!

Very True, depends how you view your earnings...$ vs. BTC Lost BTC, but Gained $ based on the X Rate

[rocks]

At this point another 50x increase in the hash rate makes mining with BitFury chips break even with electricity costs (assuming $0.10 electricity, $200 BTC, zero datacenter costs).

What happens to CEX.IO mining when power cost breaks even with mining value? Today they are providing free electricity since it is negligible to the value of BTC mined, but that is changing fast.

In the GPU/FPGA era, many people mined at near break even just to generate coins (i.e. pay electicity for bitcoins). That can make sense and work in a home/private environment since it is just a way to purchase coins, but I don't understand how the CEX.IO model works here. CEX.IO will have to charge the full value of mining just to cover their costs. This would leave zero value left for Ghash owned since all BTC generated would be used to cover their costs.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, I'm interested in the service, but having a hard time trying to model how it makes sense in 6-12 months from now.

[juhakall]

At this point another 50x increase in the hash rate makes mining with BitFury chips break even with electricity costs (assuming $0.10 electricity, $200 BTC, zero datacenter costs).

What happens to CEX.IO mining when power cost breaks even with mining value? Today they are providing free electricity since it is negligible to the value of BTC mined, but that is changing fast.

In the GPU/FPGA era, many people mined at near break even just to generate coins (i.e. pay electicity for bitcoins). That can make sense and work in a home/private environment since it is just a way to purchase coins, but I don't understand how the CEX.IO model works here. CEX.IO will have to charge the full value of mining just to cover their costs. This would leave zero value left for Ghash owned since all BTC generated would be used to cover their costs.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, I'm interested in the service, but having a hard time trying to model how it makes sense in 6-12 months from now.

From their FAQ:

If the maintenance fees exceed your mining income, GH/s be sold at current market price to cover fees.

CEX.IO MUST buy back sold hashing power at market price to close accounts.

[rocks]

From their FAQ:

If the maintenance fees exceed your mining income, GH/s be sold at current market price to cover fees.

CEX.IO MUST buy back sold hashing power at market price to close accounts.

Thanks, I understand that.

The value of a Gh/s should be equal to the present value of future income generated. If expected future income is zero (BTC - maintenance < 0), then the market value of Gh/s should be zero as well. There might be some residual value to the H/W owned, but it will be negligible compared to today's prices.

So the issue is when maintenance fees exceed mining income, the market price of Gh/s should be valued at zero in a CEX.IO type environment. So the statement above doesn't say much because the market price should be near zero here.

My basic point is breakeven mining has value in a home environment, but does not seem to have value in a traded environment. It is this end game that I want to understand better.

[SendCookies]

From their FAQ:

If the maintenance fees exceed your mining income, GH/s be sold at current market price to cover fees.

CEX.IO MUST buy back sold hashing power at market price to close accounts.

Thanks, I understand that.

The value of a Gh/s should be equal to the present value of future income generated. If expected future income is zero (BTC - maintenance < 0), then the market value of Gh/s should be zero as well. There might be some residual value to the H/W owned, but it will be negligible compared to today's prices.

So the issue is when maintenance fees exceed mining income, the market price of Gh/s should be valued at zero in a CEX.IO type environment. So the statement above doesn't say much because the market price should be near zero here.

My basic point is breakeven mining has value in a home environment, but does not seem to have value in a traded environment. It is this end game that I want to understand better.

At some point in time CEX will cease to sell GH/s and instead sell TH/s for xxxx so, that will have a new energy cost per TH/s. This can continue constantly up the point that ppl are still willing to mine and to exchange btc/$$$ for so said mining.

I think CEX is a great idea, just, don't think mining is priced correctly atm. But, I am still hashing and trading on CEX.

[mogrith]

Moved almost all of everything out and into a mcxnow account where it will at least collect interest. the rate changes a lot but it's something.

Est. annual interest rate: 6.07810768%

Interest on deposits -
25% of all mcxNOW exchange fees go towards paying interest on deposits every 6 hours!
Interest calculated as: (YOUR_BALANCE / TOTAL_USER_BALANCE) * 25% of fees. This applies to every currency on the exchange.
Fixed-point integer math trading engine -

[OleOle]

At this point another 50x increase in the hash rate makes mining with BitFury chips break even with electricity costs (assuming $0.10 electricity, $200 BTC, zero datacenter costs).

What happens to CEX.IO mining when power cost breaks even with mining value? Today they are providing free electricity since it is negligible to the value of BTC mined, but that is changing fast.

In the GPU/FPGA era, many people mined at near break even just to generate coins (i.e. pay electicity for bitcoins). That can make sense and work in a home/private environment since it is just a way to purchase coins, but I don't understand how the CEX.IO model works here. CEX.IO will have to charge the full value of mining just to cover their costs. This would leave zero value left for Ghash owned since all BTC generated would be used to cover their costs.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, I'm interested in the service, but having a hard time trying to model how it makes sense in 6-12 months from now.

I was wondering a similar thing, after all, there's not many businesses that offer 'no fees' to the end user.

The way I understand it (and feel free to correct me if better information is available) is that the Ghash.io pool also mines Namecoins by way of merged mining and it's these NMC that provide profit to CEX. On www.ghash.io it states this at the top of the page: "Pool fee is 0% ! However, we have NMC merged mining to cover pool expenses."

The pool also generates fee revenue from mining transaction fees (the fees you pay to send BTC across the network) so if you look again at www.ghash.io and scroll down to the 'Last Blocks' section, you see that under the "BTC value" column not only is the pool receiving 25BTC for each new block found, it also appears to distribute some fee (or merged mining?) revenue back into the pool:

2328    2013-10-23 00:08:47    265415    25.2284    3/120    2 hours    632.68 Th/s    
2327    2013-10-22 22:09:57    265404    25.0114    14/120    11 minutes    624.69 Th/s    
2326    2013-10-22 21:58:50    265401    25.0526    17/120    34 minutes    628.95 Th/s    
2325    2013-10-22 21:24:40    265396    25.0642    22/120    3 minutes    631.95 Th/s    
2324    2013-10-22 21:21:37    265394    25.0031    24/120    a few seconds    542.11 Th/s    
2323    2013-10-22 21:21:20    265393    25.2119   25/120    42 minutes    629.53 Th/s    


If you look at pool sizes here https://blockchain.info/pools the ghash.io pool is the second largest, so I imagine that it's generating a reasonable amount of fee income and NMC merged mining income to cover costs and provide a level of profit for the pool operators.

Anyway, that's the way I understand how things work, but if anyone has any clarity to share, please do.

[itod]

The pool also generates fee revenue from mining transaction fees (the fees you pay to send BTC across the network) so if you look again at www.ghash.io and scroll down to the 'Last Blocks' section, you see that under the "BTC value" column not only is the pool receiving 25BTC for each new block found, it also appears to distribute some fee (or merged mining?) revenue back into the pool:

2328    2013-10-23 00:08:47    265415    25.2284    3/120    2 hours    632.68 Th/s    
2327    2013-10-22 22:09:57    265404    25.0114    14/120    11 minutes    624.69 Th/s    
2326    2013-10-22 21:58:50    265401    25.0526    17/120    34 minutes    628.95 Th/s    
2325    2013-10-22 21:24:40    265396    25.0642    22/120    3 minutes    631.95 Th/s    
2324    2013-10-22 21:21:37    265394    25.0031    24/120    a few seconds    542.11 Th/s    
2323    2013-10-22 21:21:20    265393    25.2119   25/120    42 minutes    629.53 Th/s    


If you look at pool sizes here https://blockchain.info/pools the ghash.io pool is the second largest, so I imagine that it's generating a reasonable amount of fee income and NMC merged mining income to cover costs and provide a level of profit for the pool operators.

Anyway, that's the way I understand how things work, but if anyone has any clarity to share, please do.

These amounts over 25BTC are not merged mining revenues, they are transaction fees within a blocks. Many decent pools distribute this also to the miners, and ghash.io is doing it as it should.

Edit:
You can check it here:
https://blockchain.info/block-height/265415
Block 265415 for instance, that you've put in that table, has transaction fees 0.22843055 BTC. They've sent 0.22840000 to us miners amounting 25.2284 total, and kept 0.00003055 to themselves  

[rocks]

I was wondering a similar thing, after all, there's not many businesses that offer 'no fees' to the end user.

The way I understand it (and feel free to correct me if better information is available) is that the Ghash.io pool also mines Namecoins by way of merged mining and it's these NMC that provide profit to CEX. On www.ghash.io it states this at the top of the page: "Pool fee is 0% ! However, we have NMC merged mining to cover pool expenses."

The pool also generates fee revenue from mining transaction fees (the fees you pay to send BTC across the network) so if you look again at www.ghash.io and scroll down to the 'Last Blocks' section, you see that under the "BTC value" column not only is the pool receiving 25BTC for each new block found, it also appears to distribute some fee (or merged mining?) revenue back into the pool:

2328    2013-10-23 00:08:47    265415    25.2284    3/120    2 hours    632.68 Th/s    
2327    2013-10-22 22:09:57    265404    25.0114    14/120    11 minutes    624.69 Th/s    
2326    2013-10-22 21:58:50    265401    25.0526    17/120    34 minutes    628.95 Th/s    
2325    2013-10-22 21:24:40    265396    25.0642    22/120    3 minutes    631.95 Th/s    
2324    2013-10-22 21:21:37    265394    25.0031    24/120    a few seconds    542.11 Th/s    
2323    2013-10-22 21:21:20    265393    25.2119   25/120    42 minutes    629.53 Th/s    


If you look at pool sizes here https://blockchain.info/pools the ghash.io pool is the second largest, so I imagine that it's generating a reasonable amount of fee income and NMC merged mining income to cover costs and provide a level of profit for the pool operators.

Anyway, that's the way I understand how things work, but if anyone has any clarity to share, please do.

The NMC merged mining income is used to cover the Ghash.io pool expenses (which are minimal), not the CEX.IO datacenter hosting expenses (which are large relatively).

In either case, when the value of BTC mining breaks even with electricity and hosting costs, NMC merged mining will not come close to covering electricity and hosting since the NMC value is insignificant compared to BTC value generated. So we're back to square one, what is the value of a Gh/s in CEX.IO when electricity equals BTC value mined.

[OleOle]

Appreciate the input guys.

The fact overlooked by all the analysis is that this is the Bitfury pool, who manufacture their own asic chips, sell them and also mine themselves. I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be doing this for free, far from it, so not all of the total pool earnings will be revenue being paid to external pool members and I'd expect them to quarantine their hardware sales profit from the pool. Furthermore, the pool fees might not be zero forever, it could very well be a loss leader as part of their customer acquisition strategy. I'm only speculating based on these comments from their FAQ, https://cex.io/faq :


"How can a GH/s be owned forever considering electricity costs and other fees?

Maintenance fees will be set per GH/s to electricity costs and datacenter fees. It may be adjusted according to the BTC/USD exchange rate because our fees are in fixed USD.
If the maintenance fees exceed your mining income, GH/s be sold at current market price to cover fees.
CEX.IO MUST buy back sold hashing power at market price to close accounts.
At anytime you always have the option to request GHS withdrawal as hardware devices, just contact support to negotiate shipping details."


Anyway, this is just my supposition based on the information they provide. I'm not associated with the company in any way and really, I figure that they're looking out for their own interests, have you ever known any asic manufacturer to do otherwise? Now either you wait for a CEX rep to comment on this thread to give you the 'proper answer' or if you're really that concerned about their business model, then contact them directly.

[GreenBits]

buyer beware. there is price support at .078, but if that wall is breached, its gonna plummet to .0551. the buy side of the order book is looking pretty suspect/fraudulent at the moment. selling pressure is bananas.

[ajw7989]

Yea this is crazy the ghash value is crashing and if I sell would cost me a lot of bitcoin :/

[xzempt]

im having issues trying to cancel an order atm.... wtf

[SendCookies]

im having issues trying to cancel an order atm.... wtf

I had same issue a few days ago. I think it's when the site is overloaded. give it a few and refresh. It usually clears up after the load spike. Hope that helps.

[newguy05]

i lost value of the ghash drop too fash...vs the ROI of mining...

sad..

Join the club. but really it's hard to tell at the price of btc is jumping. So, in term of actual $ investment you should be ahead a lil. You won't get a true gauge of mining until btc is stable in price for a long period of time. GO BTC!!!

Very True, depends how you view your earnings...$ vs. BTC Lost BTC, but Gained $ based on the X Rate

no it is not true, it never is true, and never will be true. People are just delusional - like to bury their head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge reality.

Will say it one more time, you NEVER..EVER.. factor in $/btc price increase in your hardware miner(virtual or otherwise) ROI calculations.  

If you bought your hardware at 5 btc, it mines total of 2 btc, and you manage to sell it for 1 btc to the next fool, you lost 2 btc, period. It doesnt matter if btc/usd went from $100 to $10000000, your ROI is still a loss of 2 btc or -40% ROI.