🔔【ICO】 HODLER HARDWARE WALLET, PAYMENT TERMINAL, TOP100 COINS + TOKENS

[HODLER_TECH]

Our vision: Bringing cryptocurrency transactions into everyday life
Our mission: Provide a product that will allow secure transactions anytime and anywhere
The mission of our product: The highest level of security combined with functionality
The mission of our ICO: Building a community that gains financially with the success our company

Warm welcome to all of you.

I would like to present our new project which is also our first ICO.

Briefly about us:
We are a group of people working together since 2006, we have created several large IT projects, applications, ERP system, we have been focusing mainly on the cryptocurrency industry for several years. We have created an auto-trade application for several exchanges, we are working on the Bitcoin Legend project, we have also made bots for arbitration on exchanges (mainly for our own use), we have developed some interesting strategies on Tradingview, we have started the Crypto Analyzer project which will be developed in the future.

We have always lacked a product that we would like to create on our own, it is a secure hardware wallet which would also have all the advantages of popular free applications, that is:

- a large number of supported coins
- the ability to make payments without using a computer
- convenient interface allowing to make convenient payments with cryptocurrencies

All of this would be well protected against all kinds of frauds, scams, thefts and burglaries, just as it is done in Ledger and Trezor hardware wallets. We would like to base our wallet on a smartphone that would have our own version of operating system installed, mainly Linux (Open Source) in order to eliminate the possibility of data leakage caused by the increasingly popular malware which steals money from ordinary Android applications.

The security design of our wallet is described in more detail here: https://hodler.tech/docs/SecurityDescription.pdf
Whitepaper of the project: https://hodler.tech/docs/Whitepaper_HODLERF.pdf
In addition, we would like the device to have such capabilities as those provided by terminals in  shops, i.e. after its purchase, the configuration of connection to a cryptocurrency exchange, would allow us to accept cryptocurrency payments without the use of coinpayments or inpay-type intermediaries.

Other functions that we will implement in our wallet are as follows:
- A GPS localizer that makes it easier to find it or even recover it after a theft.
- HODL your coins function, i.e. the possibility of blocking funds in the wallet that you would like to keep for a long time. You will be able to declare the date of their unlock without being able to change it.
- Reading addresses through an OCR application, using a built-in camera, so that you don't need to write long addresses if you have to pay for something but don't have the possibility of using a QR code.
- The number of stored types of cryptocurrencies - about 100 largest + all ETH, NEO based tokens and other cryptocurrencies that will have the function of generating them.
Backup in the form of a seed which will allow you to recreate the wallet from a key written on paper, and automatic backup of private keys which will be compatible with official clients of each cryptcurrency, so that in case of a fork, you do not need to transfer coins to unprotected wallets, but only recover them in the device itself, fully safely and without the possibility of losing your funds, which we have to reckon with today. Only the indicated private keys will be sent to the cloud, the original ones will be secured only on the device.
- Possibility to purchase only the operating system with an integrated wallet application for people who would like to use any of the supported smartphones from popular manufacturers.

At the moment there is no such device and the market for them is large enough. The main competitor, Ledger wallet, is not able to use cryptocurrencies without connection to a computer, but according to Bloomberg, in 2017, it earned more than USD 55 million and is not producing enough devices to satisfy the demand.

We are waiting for your questions and suggestions.

The first prototype review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuyyKlAFuQc

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[LoyceV]

I have two questions:
1. Why would you ever want email, SIM cards and Wifi on a hardware wallet? You claim a high security level, this sounds like a cell phone.
2. Private key cloud storage? Seriously?

From the whitepaper, it seems your whole security model is based on it being "unrealistic" to hack the device. That's not a security model, that's a failure waiting to happen.

Can you list the 350 cryptocurrencies it's going to be compatible with?

[simplejg]

I have two questions:
1. Why would you ever want email, SIM cards and Wifi on a hardware wallet? You claim a high security level, this sounds like a cell phone.
2. Private key cloud storage? Seriously?

From the whitepaper, it seems your whole security model is based on it being "unrealistic" to hack the device. That's not a security model, that's a failure waiting to happen.

Can you list the 350 cryptocurrencies it's going to be compatible with?

I had the exact same thoughts/concerns as I read through the info on this.

[DarkStar_]

Being "Controled by Linux OS" provides no security. Please go into the more technical details of your security process (assuming you have one)

My bet: This is going to be some Android phone (Linux) with as many Wallet apps from Google Play installed as possible.


Their whitepaper is full of marketing bs, or they are just very uninformed.

Let's begin:

The current market of hardware wallets, generally considered the safest format of all available, is dominated by Ledger Nano S and Trezor. Unfortunately, they both require connecting to a computer, which is often inconvenient and can compromise security, as the computer is the security weak link.

Both the Ledger and Trezor are safe with infected computers, due to their design. Provide some info about why the computer is the weak link, and tell me why no viruses have been written to steal coins from my Trezor so far (minus phishing). Why are the only vulnerabilities (now patched) require physical address to the device, doing things such as freezing it, or opening it up? Why are people bothering with hacking the hardware using somewhat extreme cases instead of just making a program?

A user has fallen prey to phishing and installed spyware  
on the device.
This is not possible with HODLER. The device cannot install third party
applications, thanks to a specially designed operating system.

With time, and a Wifi accessible device, surely a bypass could be found? Nintendo Switch was designed to not allow 3rd party applications, yet people have had success getting Linux working on it.

Private keys have been stolen from the backup in the cloud. Again, not possible with HODLER

something something Bitfinex hack something something shapeshift hack something something coincheck hack something something etc
Claiming something in the cloud isn't hackable is wrong.

Private keys have been stolen during the execution of a backup from unsecured public WIFI network.
Impossible. The channel used to transfer the backup is point-to-point encrypted.

Point to point encryption has been cracked in the past. What future knowledge do you have to know that your encryption is safe from everything, even quantum computing and space aliens?

Breaking into a device through the network.
Unrealistic, due to a dedicated operating system with its own very
restrictive security features and automatic ‘switch offline’ mode between
payments.

Surprised you didn't call this one impossible. Care to elaborate on the security measures used?

(archive of thread, as I left negative trust feedback)

I consider this extremely shady, or intentionally misleading investors and customers at the very least.

[HODLER_TECH]

I have two questions:
1. Why would you ever want email, SIM cards and Wifi on a hardware wallet? You claim a high security level, this sounds like a cell phone.
2. Private key cloud storage? Seriously?

From the whitepaper, it seems your whole security model is based on it being "unrealistic" to hack the device. That's not a security model, that's a failure waiting to happen.

Can you list the 350 cryptocurrencies it's going to be compatible with?

Thanks for great questions. We are always looking forward to hearing feedback, and hopefully explain all the details that may concern potential investors and future users.

1. HODLER wallet will only use email (ascii 7bit plaintext supported) for sending and receiving payment addresses via encrypted connection. Wallet is 99.99% time in offline mode, connecting to network ONLY when user sends payment (5 sec only). Downloading and installing third-party software will be blocked so even though HODLER software will be installed on dedicated handset, you won't be able to change/add to its functionality or install new apps  etc.
2. Private key cloud storage  ( designed for imported wallets only, nonspawnable by determistic algorithm from seed) encrypted point-to-point and archive with backup secured with password ((can be decrypted only by result of hash function from seed, in HODLER.TECH Wallet only and only with valid seed). Even the cloud hacking does not give access to the keys, because these data for attacker would have same value as output form /dev/random

Their whitepaper is full of marketing bs, or they are just very uninformed.

That's why we have moved all security descriptions into another paper, accessible from website too. Whitepaper will remain clear and for everyone, even without enough IT knowlegde.

3. We plan to support all top 100 coins, ie. ETH, NEO, Cardano and other tokens. Can't list them right now because in 6 months time the crypto market may look quite different and we will adjust accordingly.

If anything above is not clear please let me know. I will be happy to answer any further questions.

Our point is to make possible for hardware wallets to be useful and secure, not just secure.
Thanks again for writing to us,

[LoyceV]

1. HODLER wallet will only use email (ascii 7bit plaintext supported) for sending and receiving payment addresses via encrypted connection. Wallet is 99.99% time in offline mode, connecting to network ONLY when user sends payment (5 sec only). Downloading and installing third-party software will be blocked so even though HODLER software will be installed on dedicated handset, you won't be able to change/add to its functionality or install new apps  etc.

It was a rhetorical question. My point is: you should not have email, Wifi and SIM cards in a hardware wallet!
Being online for 5 seconds is enough for dedicated malware to do it's job. Being online 0.01% of the time is by definition a hot wallet, not cold storage.

2. Private key cloud storage encrypted point-to-point and archive with backup secured with password. Even the cloud hacking does not give access to the keys.

What's the point of a cloud backup, if the user has to remember a password anyway? Forget about the cloud storage, and use a 24 word recovery seed instead.

Their whitepaper is full of marketing bs, or they are just very uninformed.

The marketing bs makes it look like the typical ICO, designed to make quick money. The entire design is flawed, and the answers above don't change that.

I'm not against a multi coin "cellphone" that connects to a hardware wallet, that would actually be a really good idea, but the hardware that signs transactions should always be offline, just like Ledger and Trezor do this.

I consider this extremely shady, or intentionally misleading investors and customers at the very least.

People have been given DT2 red for much less.

[HODLER_TECH]

It was a rhetorical question. My point is: you should not have email, Wifi and SIM cards in a hardware wallet!
Being online for 5 seconds is enough for dedicated malware to do it's job. Being online 0.01% of the time is by definition a hot wallet, not cold storage.

How would you send coins being offline? HODLER.TECH will sign transaction in sterill offline environment,where seed remains in memory only for signing time (few ms), only transaction will be broadcasted in online mode. About the malware - we can prevent against dedicated malware, by hiring specialist, making own firmware etc.

What's the point of a cloud backup, if the user has to remember a password anyway? Forget about the cloud storage, and use a 24 word recovery seed instead.

I have edited my post, sent too quickly.

I'm not against a multi coin "cellphone" that connects to a hardware wallet, that would actually be a really good idea, but the hardware that signs transactions should always be offline, just like Ledger and Trezor do this.

Well is not cellphone nor smartphone, is not the phone at all. SIM Card is only for GSM internet connection, of course with our baseband processor/firmware

I consider this extremely shady, or intentionally misleading investors and customers at the very least.

We do not making it all for quick bucks as you are saying. We will finish this project even if ICO will fail. We not point at 200 mil, 2.5 milions is quite enough to start production in near future.

People today using infected/vulnerable phones with wallets, our point is to make crypto wallet handy and secure.

[DarkStar_]

It was a rhetorical question. My point is: you should not have email, Wifi and SIM cards in a hardware wallet!
Being online for 5 seconds is enough for dedicated malware to do it's job. Being online 0.01% of the time is by definition a hot wallet, not cold storage.

How would you send coins being offline? HODLER.TECH will sign transaction in sterill offline environment,where seed remains in memory only for signing time (few ms), only transaction will be broadcasted in online mode. About the malware - we can prevent against dedicated malware, by hiring specialist, making own firmware etc.

You create the transaction, sign it and give it to a device that is internet connected. Please address my other points, and not just the "quick buck" part.

Provide proof that your tech is unhackable, preferably in the form of a time machine so that it's time tested.

[HODLER_TECH]

Provide proof that your tech is unhackable, preferably in the form of a time machine so that it's time tested.

About the proof, we going to make public challenge with HODLER.TECH, loaded with, let's say 3 BTC, publish IP where this device will be connected while sending tx and regular work,even give area where it may connect to GSM Network, If it will remain unspent, would it be proof enough for you?


PS. I understand where you coming from, but security is the most important factor for us. HODLER is more than just a cold storage you have mentioned, it is a portable tool, that you can take shopping and use without a need for laptop or a computer.

[DarkStar_]

Provide proof that your tech is unhackable, preferably in the form of a time machine so that it's time tested.

About the proof, we going to make public challenge with HODLER.TECH, loaded with, let's say 3 BTC, publish IP where this device will be connected while sending tx and regular work,even give area where it may connect to GSM Network, If it will remain unspent, would it be proof enough for you?


PS. I understand where you coming from, but security is the most important factor for us. HODLER is more than just a cold storage you have mentioned, it is a portable tool, that you can take shopping and use without a need for laptop or a computer.

I'd much rather you address my points, and describe your security features in more detail. Notice how none of your competitors claim to be unhackable?

Also, I'd take a look at the Ledger Blue and add it to your comparisons, as I think that's a much more secure version of what you are trying to do.

[HODLER_TECH]

Provide proof that your tech is unhackable, preferably in the form of a time machine so that it's time tested.

About the proof, we going to make public challenge with HODLER.TECH, loaded with, let's say 3 BTC, publish IP where this device will be connected while sending tx and regular work,even give area where it may connect to GSM Network, If it will remain unspent, would it be proof enough for you?


PS. I understand where you coming from, but security is the most important factor for us. HODLER is more than just a cold storage you have mentioned, it is a portable tool, that you can take shopping and use without a need for laptop or a computer.

I'd much rather you address my points, and describe your security features in more detail. Notice how none of your competitors claim to be unhackable?

Also, I'd take a look at the Ledger Blue and add it to your comparisons, as I think that's a much more secure version of what you are trying to do.

I went through your questions and I think I have addressed all your concerns. If I missed something please let me know what do you mean by "more details".
Some of the security details and explanation are available in our Whitepaper pdf. Soon we will provide more comprehensive document for the advanced users where we will deal with HODLER's security in-depth. HODLER is an unique wallet as it combines functionality of mobile crypto wallets with the highest level of security available.
https://hodler.tech/docs/SecurityDescription.pdf
Of course, I can inform you personally about about future document updates if you wish.

Ledger Blue cannot be used in shops, it doesn't have a scanner to read QR, no OCR for address recognition, so in fact Ledger Blue is just a version of Ledger Nano S with a bigger screen and some coins added.

HODLER is way much more secure than any mobile device wallet (Android + app), but still gives you a comfort of walking into shops and paying for your shopping. Besides there are no reasons really why number of coins are limited on any crypto wallet. We want to be able to use any of the top cryptocurrencies and/or tokens, and exchange them wherever we are.

No one can proof that Ledger is safer than HODLER and vice versa at this early stage, so there is no point of taking this conversation any further in my opinion.

The general concept of HODLER is to give the highest level of  security and allow everyday transactions regardless of where you are. Solution that is not available on the market.

[LoyceV]

~ HODLER is an unique wallet ~ with the highest level of security
~ HODLER is way much more secure than any mobile device wallet
~
The general concept of HODLER is to give the highest level of  security

You can say this as often as you want, it's not going to change the fundamental security flaws in your design of a hot wallet with cloud backups.

[DarkStar_]

> highest security levels
> backs up private keys to the cloud

Yeah, no. I also took a look at the security document you linked and it barely explains anything or gives me confidence that my coins are secure. And again, claiming that it is impossible for certain exploits is extremely misleading, unless of course, you have a time machine, or are space aliens. Trezor has had security instances in the past, as not everything can be prevented. The Trezor doesn't even have Internet access, making it hard to inject malicious code, yet it has had 4 vulnerabilities.

---

Okay, to start, care to elaborate on "the computer being the weakest link?" As a Trezor owner, I'm genuinely curious on how my virus infected computer could steal my coins.

[DarkStar_]

At least you stand out from your competition.

[FL4RE]

Hello I'm Daniel and I am an the man who stay behind a HODLER security model.

Okay, to start, care to elaborate on "the computer being the weakest link?" As a Trezor owner, I'm genuinely curious on how my virus infected computer could steal my coins.

Hardwarewallets that require computer connection are subjected to attacks that can take over clipboard of the infected computer. Our wallet in completely independent. Clipboard hijack attacks are happening more often than breaking of the double encrypted connections and archives. For readers not familar with this technique: http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/clipboard-hijack-attack

What's the point of a cloud backup, if the user has to remember a password anyway? Forget about the cloud storage, and use a 24 word recovery seed instead.

Cloud is dedicated for storing encrypted blobs of IMPORTED wallets. These wallets can not be generated once again from seed while recovering backup, so we storing it safetly in cold storage. Blobs are generated in that way:

Code:

generatedHashAsKey = sha256(seed).repeat(100000)
blob=aes256CBC_encrypt(generatedHashAsKey,importedPrivateKey)

And this blob is sent to cloud with point-to-point encryption.
With this storage, when you can recover imported wallets when eg. you lost your device.

[LoyceV]

Hello I'm Daniel and I am an the man who stay behind a HODLER security model.

Okay, to start, care to elaborate on "the computer being the weakest link?" As a Trezor owner, I'm genuinely curious on how my virus infected computer could steal my coins.

Hardwarewallets that require computer connection are subjected to attacks that can take over clipboard of the infected computer.

That's why Trezor shows the address on it's display for confirmation. If you need to make up lies about competitors and market leaders, you don't have a strong product.

[FL4RE]

Well is not a lie, not every hardware is vulnerable but check this
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ledger+trezor+vulnerability
So you can agree with me that address can be hijacked with Trezor, otherwise why it would display adress again? Eg. Legder Nano S is displaying few letters from address, it can be tricked by vanity address in similar letters.  My point here is that the connection with PC is the weakest link, we do not have this link. Addresses cannot be hijacked at all. Using competitors device connected with PC requiring user to take special attention.

[HODLER_TECH]

HODLER is designed to allow secure transactions anytime anywhere. Comparing to traditional solutions using hardwallets is like caring your safe and opening it each time you buy something. You can not pay for your everyday shopping using hardwallets, unless you carry your laptop with you. Having just a little bit of money on your mobile wallet is limiting in terms of what you can buy, and also insecure.

HODLER can be offline 100% of time, like Trezor or Ledger, the connection is only needed for couple of seconds when sending money. All connections are encrypted, data is secured, Cloud Backup is not necessary, users can decide if they want to use it or not to i.e allow fork claim. Data is doubly encrypted so data leakage of just one element will not allow hackers to get access to your key and funds. This is the main concept, and understanding this functionality is crucial to see the need for product like HODLER. Luckily, there are many investors seeing the potential and supporting our product. We are happy to say that almost 1mln of HDL tokens has now been sold.

Currently on the market you haven't got a wallet that allows taking and making payments anywhere, supports many coins and provides the most advanced levels of security. I need to state once again: the most important factors for us are security in connection with everyday functionality.

[JanEmil]

I will keep an eye on this hardware wallet 

[HODLER_TECH]

I will keep an eye on this hardware wallet  

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