Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

[Bitware]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-swiss-pay-idUSBRE9930O620131004

[Elwar]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-swiss-pay-idUSBRE9930O620131004

So...get rich then retire in Switzerland. Receive free money.

[Ekaros]

With sensible taxation system to offset this, it might save money from bureaucracy overall. And entourage part time work.

[Lethn]

By the way Americans, this is what actual communism looks like, what I worry about though is the amount of people flooding in for their chance to get 'free' money.

[Swordsoffreedom]

Basic wage would be nice better than a ton of homeless people
The ones left will be easier to rehabilitate

[Lethn]

The problem is how do they afford it? I don't think communism can work if you have currency.

[Swordsoffreedom]

Sure it can just start with a socialist structure and build it up from their using elements of capitalism
Chinese model

[Ekaros]

The problem is how do they afford it? I don't think communism can work if you have currency.

How can USA afford food stamps etc.?

This is just moving the existing social security to different form. The goal is to lessen the associated cost of social security. And I believe these sort of schemes increase the tax burden for majority by amount they are getting.

[fattypig]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-swiss-pay-idUSBRE9930O620131004

Am I reading this right? "unconditional income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2,800) per month from the state". Does that mean you get that amount of money even if you are capable of working and not working?

[pedrog]

Democracy on steroids.

[RoadToHell]

Am I reading this right? "unconditional income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2,800) per month from the state". Does that mean you get that amount of money even if you are capable of working and not working?

Conversely, I wonder if it means that you receive the money even if you are working and making a decent income?

[RoadToHell]

There are always unintended consequences when the government does something like this.  It seems (to me anyway) that one consequence of this give-away is that it would necessarily, directly feed inflation and/or devaluation of the currency.  By how much would be hard to guess.  I throw out a WAG that after this program has been in place for 15 months, it will cost at least 3.500 to 4.000 francs to purchase what that 2.500 francs would have bought prior to the start of this program.

No, I don't have any stats or info to back up that guess.  However I think it is naïve to think you can infuse that amount of cash into an economy, with no change (or even a negative change) in the work output, without causing inflation and/or a devaluation in the currency.

[matt608]

There are always unintended consequences when the government does something like this.  It seems (to me anyway) that one consequence of this give-away is that it would necessarily, directly feed inflation and/or devaluation of the currency.  By how much would be hard to guess.  I throw out a WAG that after this program has been in place for 15 months, it will cost at least 3.500 to 4.000 francs to purchase what that 2.500 francs would have bought prior to the start of this program.

No, I don't have any stats or info to back up that guess.  However I think it is naïve to think you can infuse that amount of cash into an economy, with no change (or even a negative change) in the work output, without causing inflation and/or a devaluation in the currency.

It's not being 'infused' into the economy, it's being moved from rich to poor people.  It might not have any inflationary effect.

[wormbog]

This will create a dedicated class of folks who happily live a simplistic lifestyle on 2500 f/mo and pursue their own interests. Or watch a lot of TV.

[kokojie]

There are always unintended consequences when the government does something like this.  It seems (to me anyway) that one consequence of this give-away is that it would necessarily, directly feed inflation and/or devaluation of the currency.  By how much would be hard to guess.  I throw out a WAG that after this program has been in place for 15 months, it will cost at least 3.500 to 4.000 francs to purchase what that 2.500 francs would have bought prior to the start of this program.

No, I don't have any stats or info to back up that guess.  However I think it is naïve to think you can infuse that amount of cash into an economy, with no change (or even a negative change) in the work output, without causing inflation and/or a devaluation in the currency.

It's not being 'infused' into the economy, it's being moved from rich to poor people.  It might not have any inflationary effect.

It 100% will cause rampant inflation. When rich people are holding they money, the money does not enter circulation, ie. buying up food/electronics/furniture etc..., it's just sitting in their bank account or invested in some stocks. but when you distribute these to the masses...

[Wilikon]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-swiss-pay-idUSBRE9930O620131004

So...get rich then retire in Switzerland. Receive free money.

No. Have enough for a train ticket. Move to Switzerland as an moneyless homeless. Retire.

[Bitware]

We shall have Utopia, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether Utopia will be achieved by consent or by conquest.

[westkybitcoins]

This is nuts. Surely there's no way the Swiss would be foolish enough to fall for this.

From what I read elsewhere, the basic income is meant to be unconditional. Which means passing this would have immediate, drastic and far-reaching consequences.

Many people would quit working immediately. More would follow over time. Meanwhile, should the taxes on the rich be raised to provide for this, they'll start to leave (or just move their money elsewhere and live off their "entitlement" themselves.) Should taxes be raised on banks or financial assets, money will flee Switzerland, and depositors will start preferring Austria, the Cayman Islands, or any other place with banking laws similar to Switzerland but with fewer fees. The impact on the work ethic and general mentality of the masses will be absolutely corrosive.

This is something I would have thought would come from The Onion, not from an actual Swiss legislative proposal.

But I guess it's proving the point: democracy can only last until the populace realizes they can vote themselves largesse from the treasury.

[Lethn]

This is why I like Direct Democracy so much, if this passes and the law goes into effect causing the whole economy to collapse, only the people have themselves to blame, they also have the power to overturn it if they realise it's a huge mistake, if Direct Democracy is as good as I think it is though, I don't think it will pass at all.  I really wish we had their kind of Democracy here in the UK, there's so much I'd be glad to vote on, whenever there's a referendum I'm happy to go out and vote on my ideology ( I voted against Alternative Voting ) but I refuse to vote for a bunch of assholes in a rigged election just because the other side is terrified they might win.

[al.matic]

This is nuts. Surely there's no way the Swiss would be foolish enough to fall for this.

From what I read elsewhere, the basic income is meant to be unconditional. Which means passing this would have immediate, drastic and far-reaching consequences.

Many people would quit working immediately. More would follow over time. Meanwhile, should the taxes on the rich be raised to provide for this, they'll start to leave (or just move their money elsewhere and live off their "entitlement" themselves.) Should taxes be raised on banks or financial assets, money will flee Switzerland, and depositors will start preferring Austria, the Cayman Islands, or any other place with banking laws similar to Switzerland but with fewer fees. The impact on the work ethic and general mentality of the masses will be absolutely corrosive.

This is something I would have thought would come from The Onion, not from an actual Swiss legislative proposal.

But I guess it's proving the point: democracy can only last until the populace realizes they can vote themselves largesse from the treasury.

They are not planning to immediately give 1,800 - 2,500 francs per month. They will most likely gradually increase the amount from zero to 2,000 while decreasing other social expenses.

People who work shi**y jobs for low wages will quit (consequently, such jobs will be paid more). People who are just afraid of losing job (but still like it) will be more relaxed and creative, which will benefit them and their employers in the long run. People who are currently not productive can start their own business. It is more freedom to everybody.

The basic premise here is that people (if they have some basic income) want to work, and that money is just not important for most people after some amount (I was told that in some research somebody even found the figure, but I don't have the source). This means that attractive jobs (attractiveness not being measured by earnings) will be less paid than today, while unattractive jobs will be paid much more. Number of volunteers will increase vastly. A teacher will have the same wage as a garbage collector. Still, the most wanted skills will be rare as they are today and people possessing such skills will earn about the same amount as today (adjusted for possible inflation).

Not many people would just sit at home all day watching TV. They would soon get bored. Watching TV after stressful day at work is not the same as watching TV when you are not tired nor under stress; just gets boring after a day or two. Everybody is lazy until brainwashed that being lazy is bad, so "work ethic" will mean something else: when you work, you will try to produce best quality (because you like what you do), not try to maximize quantity (because you are forced to).

I am not sure the above premise is true or false; people who push basic income idea think that it is.

It is assumed that total work output will be better with people relaxed and creative and willing to work (even counting in those who don't work at all). Consequently, it will be good for businesses.

It might be bad for some rich people if they tax them; some money will flee Switzerland, but nothing bad can happen (they can adjust the basic income - it is the simplest implementation of communist idea of redistribution).

Obviously you will have to be born in Switzerland or be a citizen for at least a decade or two to receive the basic income (so people will not be massively moving to Switzerland and be homeless there for a decade...).

Basically: if people are secure AND like to work AND majority don't care much about money, then communism is possible. I can't wait to see what happens (maybe the Switzerland will not be the first; but some other country will be).