A picture of AnCapistan

[MountainMan]

No, I just see the endless circular argument you're trying to drag this down into. If you don't account for the way things are, then all the what-if speculation in the world is pointless.

What if aliens drop by and nuke the Whitehouse? What if London turns into a black hole? What if Russia had a national reform and they all became Buddhists?

Unless there's somehow a total societal breakdown in America, you're never going to apply all of the principles you endorse. I think some of them are good, and represent ideals, but like communism, they only work on paper. When you insert them into the real world, and real people become responsible for implementing them, then, like any other human endeavor, you get mistakes, corruption, downright evil bastards, and some inspiring heroes.

If you want a serious discussion about AnCap, hypothetical ideals aren't exactly useful. I can get all of that from Wikipedia. How about look to where the current system is broken and where AnCap provides a solution.

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum. Because of existing institutions, pure AnCap ain't gonna work. They have their own momentum and resources.

That's all I'm saying. I actually think a lot of the AnCap principles look pretty good. A culture of personal responsibility and Free Market based government are pretty damn good ideals. There are cities and counties in America who are privatizing their public services and by doing so, are drastically reducing taxes and improving quality of life. They're able to do that because of the existing system - people see results and vote accordingly.

The way I see it, you can implement aspects of AnCap, in place.

Start from reality. Define a scope. Otherwise, you're just playing at fairy tales, and I got over those right around 8 years old.

You're outmatched and you're frustrated so you resort to your default sarcastic douchebaggery self-defense mechanism.

God forbid anyone ever say anything snarky, your holiness. I didn't realize who you were. I won't ever be sarcastic with you again, promise.

[myrkul]

What is this jibber-jabber? (bolded)

Some set of laws which are decidedly not NAP.

Because anything else would not be AnCap, by definition. It may call itself that, but it would not be. Much like the current United States insists upon calling itself a Democratic Republic, though it abandoned those principles some 150 years ago.

The way I see it, you can implement aspects of AnCap, in place.

You can implement the whole thing, as long as you don't mind breaking the law. (primarily the ones about not competing with government services)

[ascent]

Because anything else would not be AnCap, by definition. It may call itself that, but it would not be. Much like the current United States insists upon calling itself a Democratic Republic, though it abandoned those principles some 150 years ago.

You seriously insult me if you think that is an answer. Let me ask the question again. In your AnCap system, which I will allow you the unrealistic supposition that NAP is the law everywhere, how is it that NAP will remain the law, and not mutate into various versions of SSOLWADNNAP, depending on locale or region?

Or, in a more realistic hypothetical world, however did NAP become the law, when it is in competition with various versions of SSOLWADNNAP?

[MountainMan]

I do mind breaking the law, except as a last resort, when no options are left. As things are right now, I really think people need to wake up to the fact that America as an idealized free nation is disintegrating rapidly, and that lots of things need to be fixed. I don't think we're past the point of no return yet, so I'll be a good (if vocal) sheep for the time being.

The whole world is still in upheaval over the internet. It's still in the process of changing everything. That's why I think America as an ideal can still be fixed - won't be long before we finally get the real-time reports and audits, some sort of government based social network with logs and the like. Eventually we'll see real-time voting. Traditional politics and demagoguery starts to break down when everything is out in the open for people to see.

[myrkul]

Or, in a more realistic hypothetical world, however did NAP become the law, when it is in competition with various versions of SSOLWADNNAP?

Now this is something I can answer.

A (possibly quite small) group of people decide to make that their guiding principle. They allow all business to enter their little enclave, so long as the NAP is followed, and it prospers. More people move in, it prospers more, and it just snowballs. Because everyone who goes in knows that aggression is not an acceptable practice, and arbitration agreements are required to deal with the people there, it becomes a safe haven for all non-violent illegal activities. And as the VHS/Beta fight shows, once you have the sex industry on your side, it's all over but the shouting.

[vector76]

What stops AnCapistan from emerging right now in a country with a weak government?

If you find the answer to that question, I think you will find the conditions which doom AnCapistan in general, and then you can ask yourself whether those roadblocks can ever be absent.  I have my own theories but I am interested to hear yours.

[myrkul]

What stops AnCapistan from emerging right now in a country with a weak government?

What makes you think it isn't?  It would necessarily be 'underground' until pretty much the very last second, and a weak government is not necessary, but it helps.

[NghtRppr]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

Good, that's my goal.

Because of existing institutions, pure AnCap ain't gonna work. They have their own momentum and resources.

It might not happen anytime soon. It might take generations. It might get worse before it gets better. Slavery didn't end worldwide overnight but when the time was right, it ended. That's the same kind of thing I envision for statism. When people are ready, it will happen but first it has to at least be seen as something possible and worth hoping for.

[myrkul]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

Good, that's my goal.

Thought this was MY thread?

But yeah, that is our goal. Show how the system works.

The getting there is the goal of Agorism.

[MountainMan]

I agree.
I see something between AnCap and some sort of large federated states in the next couple hundred years.

After the first publicly successful AnCapistan (either in a seastead or a takeover of a failed state) people will sit up and take notice. With Wikipedia, Khan Academy, filesharing sites, the various darknets and freenet and i2p and tor, some sort of service industry, self-sufficient planning, and some good treaties/political work with some larger power, a seastead is likely going to be the first example of an AnCapistan in action. Almost everything needed to boostrap a micronation is available to anyone with a few weeks and the internet (except for viable large scale seastead technology, which is in development.)

Assuming enough funding, you can even launch private satellites and work out connectivity with major networks, so you don't have to be dependent. Imagine a seastead tribe devoted to cleaning the great garbage patch, turning the plastic into fuel or seastead modules or other products. Using portable ocean based solar energy collectors, storing massive amounts of energy in flywheels, and delivering it to cities. Creating massive networks of sensors for climate, weather, shipping, and transportation data. The possibilities are tremendous, and AnCap, or something approximating it, will be the natural form of government (limited only by the need for protection via treaties with Western powers.)

[Rassah]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

[myrkul]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

This is how AnCap works in a vacuum

[billyjoeallen]

An empire will arise out of the ashes of AnCapistan, because humans are stupid, greedy, evil bastards.

Why not impose a central state designed to mitigate the greedy, evil tendencies and maximize freedoms? A Democractic Republic seems like a pretty good system to me.

The problem is that evil, stupid greedy bastards are disproportionately attracted to civil service or to controlling those who are.

[Rassah]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

This is how AnCap works in a vacuum

26°C? 14°C? What witchcraft is this?

[myrkul]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

This is how AnCap works in a vacuum

26°C? 14°C? What witchcraft is this?

Well, naturally, Terra has standardized on metric.

[Rassah]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

This is how AnCap works in a vacuum

26°C? 14°C? What witchcraft is this?

Well, naturally, Terra has standardized on metric.

The "I study at home and at church" part is a little... scary. Why is it that so many people who are so pro-freedom of thought and personal choice seem to also be stuck on "that side" of personal subjugation and mental laziness? Frankly, it's rather upsetting/disappointing.

[myrkul]

I see perfectly well how AnCapistan works, in a vacuum.

So, it's decided then. TO SPACE! With SCIENCE! And maybe Virgin Galactic!

This is how AnCap works in a vacuum

26°C? 14°C? What witchcraft is this?

Well, naturally, Terra has standardized on metric.

The "I study at home and at church" part is a little... scary. Why is it that so many people who are so pro-freedom of thought and personal choice seem to also be stuck on "that side" of personal subjugation and mental laziness? Frankly, it's rather upsetting/disappointing.

A little Jesus, in small doses, isn't that bad. It's when they get belligerent about it and trying to shove it down people's throats that it gets annoying.

[MountainMan]

The "I study at home and at church" part is a little... scary.

Yeah, because any worldview outside of our own, *especially* those that admit to anything that even smells like faith, can't possibly have any validity or worth, and should therefore be feared.

Or you could choose to accept that people come to different conclusions all the time, interpret identical data in different ways, and believe different things, and that those facts are nothing to be scared of. The only thing you should find... "scary" is your unwitting lack of tolerance for alternative viewpoints. You aren't the arbiter of reason, nor the enforcer of rationality, and it's nunnayafuckinbidnez what, how, why, and where people believe. The only thing you should give a damn about is how they act when it affects you.

Seriously, "scary?" Give me a fucking break.

[rainingbitcoins]

Second, Let me head off an argument before we even gets started: Somalia. Somalia is neither Libertopia, nor AnCapistan. Somalia is a land of tribal warlords, each trying to be the government. In AnCapistan, the enforcement agencies themselves would be bound by the NAP (the above law), and so, wouldn't attempt to become a government. Should one try, the others would be contractually obligated to stop them

And what happens when the others don't try because it'll cost them too much money? Ain't nobody there to force their hand, so why bother?

See above for resources. Also, customers vote with their dollars. If you're an ass and are legally untrustworthy, those involved with you from a business sense, those being both the end-customers buying your products products and your suppliers selling you materials, will both start to dump you.

Oh yes, this always works. Except how are people even going to know what evil shit these companies are up to when a different division of the same company owns the newspapers and never prints anything bad about them? You don't even need your little AnCapistan to see the results of this right now. Coca-cola has outright murdered union organizers in Latin America and their products still fly off the shelves. Hershey's and other chocolate companies use cocoa grown by modern-day slaves on the Ivory Coast, and most people don't even learn about that, let alone have a chance to get angry about it. With the kind of corporate consolidation we see these days, you also run into the problem of trying to boycott companies that make thousands of products of every different description, and you know most people aren't going to bother with that.

Assuming people are rational actors and will always look out for their own best interests and those of society is so incredibly naive that it makes my head hurt knowing people really believe this stuff. Like others have said, this is all stuff that sounds nice and lovely in theory, but the second you try to introduce any reality whatsoever into the equation, it all falls apart.

Yes, because it's SO much more profitable to steal from people and get shot on the third try than to deal with people fairly and have millions of customers.

If I have a mercenary army, I don't have to worry about getting shot on the third try or any try. I hire people to take those bullets for me - it's just good business!

(Also apparently even a dude running around with a gun shooting people is a rational actor who always considers the ramifications of everything he does and would never do anything illogical.)

[MountainMan]

If I have a mercenary army, I don't have to worry about getting shot on the third try or any try. I hire people to take those bullets for me - it's just good business!

Microsoft and Cisco could afford pretty damn big armies.