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Question: Start crowdfunding effort for decentralized stock exchange?
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waste of time

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Author Topic: If you are a US citizen you basically can go F yourself! BTCT, Bitfunder, Dwolla  (Read 17037 times)
forensick
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October 09, 2013, 07:07:18 PM
 #81

Wouldn´t be better to call it New World Order than centralization?

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October 09, 2013, 07:34:22 PM
 #82

And what? Get prosecuted?  Wink

But I thought you like the unregulated world of bitcoin Wink I am just saying regulations aren't bad, I don't see the big deal and I see more pros than cons.

I do, but unfortunately I am regulated Smiley

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October 09, 2013, 07:46:55 PM
 #83

If any of US fellows would like to continue keeping and handling his portfolio through a third party, I will do it for 1% of the stake (shares+dividends)
PM me if you are interested Smiley
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October 09, 2013, 07:52:52 PM
 #84

And what? Get prosecuted?  Wink

But I thought you like the unregulated world of bitcoin Wink I am just saying regulations aren't bad, I don't see the big deal and I see more pros than cons.

I do, but unfortunately I am regulated Smiley

Don't worry, just embrace the regulation as I said before this is what makes bitcon be $120 to $1200.

If any of US fellows would like to continue keeping and handling his portfolio through a third party, I will do it for 1% of the stake (shares+dividends)
PM me if you are interested Smiley

I hope no one actually takes these people up on their offers, because you give control to people like this they run away if it goes up and if it goes down you still own them 1% free stock. It is not a win win for anyone but them.

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October 09, 2013, 08:06:04 PM
 #85

Well doubt over this situation and this kind of deal is completely legitimate and anyone should find a way for mutual trust before giving the control of his capital to somebody else, even that somebody else is his/her father. But marking people of being scams even before any act has been taken is nasty and just can come out from the mouth of a typical bump&dump miner or drug dealer, aka btt troll. Think before opening your big mouth!
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October 09, 2013, 08:14:32 PM
 #86

But marking people of being scams even before any act has been taken is nasty and just can come out from the mouth of a typical bump&dump miner or drug dealer, aka btt troll. Think before opening your big mouth!

Who mark you as a scam? I just was warning people some people if you can believe it don't think before acting. It was just a warning to those, now if you were legitimate you wouldn't be so rude, this makes me think it is truly is a scam.

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October 09, 2013, 08:29:32 PM
 #87

But marking people of being scams even before any act has been taken is nasty and just can come out from the mouth of a typical bump&dump miner or drug dealer, aka btt troll. Think before opening your big mouth!

Who mark you as a scam? I just was warning people some people if you can believe it don't think before acting. It was just a warning to those, now if you were legitimate you wouldn't be so rude, this makes me think it is truly is a scam.
What you wrote in plain English meant a scam, and now you find another excuse to say I am truly a scam, the funny part is that nothing happened in the air yet.. WTF.. btt aka troll-land!
Well I see your ignore button is glowing, that shows the kind of person you are. Think about me the way you desire!
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October 09, 2013, 09:53:46 PM
 #88

Bitshares or Mastercoin or Colored coins all seem to have more promise. You can also just wait for the US crowdfunding legislation to take effect.
 Your kidding right?  I have been waiting for the SEC to publish their crowdfunding rules.  They were supposed to have them done January 2013.  Nothing like meeting your 'legal' obligations on time.  Roll Eyes

The new crowdfunding rules are already in effect. The Twitter and SecondMarket Bitcoin ETF IPOs are using them.

The sad news is that the rules don't do what you think they do. They basically make it easier for rich people to invest in start-ups, while excluding everyone else.

There is another part of that law set to phase in which will allow unaccredited investors to invest but I agree the law is set up poorly. It does allow anyone to invest eventually though.

While I understand the desire to have decentralized everythings, particularly in the wake of recent developments, it's simply not the way of the world. The concept of centralization is bigger than finance, or bitcoin, or technology.

Forces condense over time and then are torn apart in a repeating cycle.

Centralization happens all on its own, and for good reason.

I disagree entirely. You cannot expect to have liberty, human rights, or fair systems of governance if it's too centralized. Decentralization is the result of the erosion of trust in large centralized institutions who have abused their power. Decentralized governance, finance, and markets are the answer if the goal is to limit corruption and produce opportunities for innovation and success.

I think you're just plain wrong. But I understand it's in your economic self interest to say that.
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October 09, 2013, 09:55:55 PM
 #89

While I understand the desire to have decentralized everythings, particularly in the wake of recent developments, it's simply not the way of the world. The concept of centralization is bigger than finance, or bitcoin, or technology.

Forces condense over time and then are torn apart in a repeating cycle.

Centralization happens all on its own, and for good reason.

You've got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette
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October 09, 2013, 10:59:12 PM
 #90

Bitshares or Mastercoin or Colored coins all seem to have more promise. You can also just wait for the US crowdfunding legislation to take effect.
 Your kidding right?  I have been waiting for the SEC to publish their crowdfunding rules.  They were supposed to have them done January 2013.  Nothing like meeting your 'legal' obligations on time.  Roll Eyes

The new crowdfunding rules are already in effect. The Twitter and SecondMarket Bitcoin ETF IPOs are using them.

The sad news is that the rules don't do what you think they do. They basically make it easier for rich people to invest in start-ups, while excluding everyone else.

There is another part of that law set to phase in which will allow unaccredited investors to invest but I agree the law is set up poorly. It does allow anyone to invest eventually though.

While I understand the desire to have decentralized everythings, particularly in the wake of recent developments, it's simply not the way of the world. The concept of centralization is bigger than finance, or bitcoin, or technology.

Forces condense over time and then are torn apart in a repeating cycle.

Centralization happens all on its own, and for good reason.

I disagree entirely. You cannot expect to have liberty, human rights, or fair systems of governance if it's too centralized. Decentralization is the result of the erosion of trust in large centralized institutions who have abused their power. Decentralized governance, finance, and markets are the answer if the goal is to limit corruption and produce opportunities for innovation and success.

I think you're just plain wrong. But I understand it's in your economic self interest to say that.

It's not my concern what you think of my own opinion, and this does not come from self-interests. It is factual observation.

Centralization happens for many good reasons, including, convenience, trust, and profitability for all parties.  Decentralization doesn't compensate for those values, it merely breaks them into smaller pieces.

Look at the hip-hop music industry. The centralized powers have the attention, power, and efficiency to make money distributing entertainment in various forms. However, the abilities for independent artists to produce and create professional music, book their own tours, print their own merchandise, etc, are all there. This feels like decentralization, yet now they are competing with the entire amateur industry. Those artists buy there hardware from known reputable (centralized) sources, they use centralized website services to get the word out, etc. Without centralized power and convenience none of it would be possible.

Decentralization will always tend toward centralization of powers. Always. It's the only way to get anything done, and have any confidence it will get done sufficiently.

I'm not saying a decentralized exchange method won't be created, I'm just saying it will simply produce new centralized forces around facilitating its existence, which will eventually lead us back to where we started. The pursuit is admirable, and maybe even one worth constantly attempting, but I simply do not believe it can compete with the natural forces of reality.
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October 09, 2013, 11:52:56 PM
 #91

This is why i care so much about Bitshares alike project
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October 10, 2013, 12:07:07 AM
 #92

Decentralization will always tend toward centralization of powers. Always. It's the only way to get anything done, and have any confidence it will get done sufficiently.

I'd put this another way: there are always opportunists with a penchant for being control freaks seeking to consolidate their own wealth/power at the expense of everyone else. These personalities have their uses but they're also generally the most dangerous people in society and always have been historically.

I think the trend in decentralization over the next few generations will finally be allow us to fence these personalities in to some degree and make it more difficult for them to seize control of networks, projects and governments. Bitcoin is the first step in this direction and we can already see centralizing influences in Bitcoin looking to weaken the decentralized model. It won't work in the longrun, imo.
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October 10, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
 #93

Decentralization will always tend toward centralization of powers. Always. It's the only way to get anything done, and have any confidence it will get done sufficiently.

I'd put this another way: there are always opportunists with a penchant for being control freaks seeking to consolidate their own wealth/power at the expense of everyone else. These personalities have their uses but they're also generally the most dangerous people in society and always have been historically.

I think the trend in decentralization over the next few generations will finally be allow us to fence these personalities in to some degree and make it more difficult for them to seize control of networks, projects and governments. Bitcoin is the first step in this direction and we can already see centralizing influences in Bitcoin looking to weaken the decentralized model. It won't work in the longrun, imo.

I think that simplifies it too much. While there may be some forces that act in the way you describe, the concept is more abstract and powerful than greed or control freaks.
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October 10, 2013, 12:17:36 AM
 #94


I think that simplifies it too much. While there may be some forces that act in the way you describe, the concept is more abstract and powerful than greed or control freaks.

Greed and control freaks are the fuel behind centralization and always have been. It's a human process driven by human behavior.
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October 10, 2013, 01:05:54 AM
 #95

But marking people of being scams even before any act has been taken is nasty and just can come out from the mouth of a typical bump&dump miner or drug dealer, aka btt troll. Think before opening your big mouth!

Who mark you as a scam? I just was warning people some people if you can believe it don't think before acting. It was just a warning to those, now if you were legitimate you wouldn't be so rude, this makes me think it is truly is a scam.
What you wrote in plain English meant a scam, and now you find another excuse to say I am truly a scam, the funny part is that nothing happened in the air yet.. WTF.. btt aka troll-land!
Well I see your ignore button is glowing, that shows the kind of person you are. Think about me the way you desire!

Yes because people really care about ignore buttons LMAO I was doing a blanketed statement, it really actually wasn't directed towards you, if you can read. But feel free to press the ignore button.

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October 10, 2013, 06:31:43 AM
 #96

It's not my concern what you think of my own opinion, and this does not come from self-interests. It is factual observation.
Centralization in terms of information security also means introducing a point of failure. Too big to fail is the result of centralized banking. That is a factual observation as well.
Centralization happens for many good reasons, including, convenience, trust, and profitability for all parties.  Decentralization doesn't compensate for those values, it merely breaks them into smaller pieces.
Why not put your money in Bank of America? It's a nice centralized bank. Sometimes you're correct that centralization has some security advantages when trying to protect the gold in Fort Knox but even that is debatable because centralized storage only presents an easy target for bankers. At the end of the day the more centralized it is the bigger the target it becomes for those who want control of it. This is as much of a factual and historical statement as it is a technological design observation. Bitcoin and Bittorrent are designed to be decentralized because there isn't anyone who should be trusted (not the same as saying there isn't anyone who can be trusted). And to rely on trust when you don't have to is to introduce a point of failure into a system which doesn't have to have one.

On centralized exchanges, if we don't have to rely on Burnside, on Ukyo, on anybody like that, then we reduce our level of risk in participating in the system should we choose to put our Bitcoins at stake. There is no reason why you should choose a trust based system when you can choose a trustless system to do the same thing. Human beings are the main weakness in any system.

Look at the hip-hop music industry. The centralized powers have the attention, power, and efficiency to make money distributing entertainment in various forms. However, the abilities for independent artists to produce and create professional music, book their own tours, print their own merchandise, etc, are all there.
A lot of people want to do away with that centralized power system as well. Not everyone supports the star system, centralized RIAA distributed system. That system is basically obsolete and only exists because of lawsuits, political lobbyists having dinner with politicians and the President to protect the jobs of middlemen who don't really make the art or go on tour. It should be obvious that I'm on the side of the independent artist and while there may be room for centralized systems, those systems should compete with decentralized systems to prove their worth. They should not rely on politics and legalese to try to protect their obsolete jobs.

This feels like decentralization, yet now they are competing with the entire amateur industry. Those artists buy there hardware from known reputable (centralized) sources, they use centralized website services to get the word out, etc. Without centralized power and convenience none of it would be possible.
I agree that competition is a good thing. If anyone would like to make a centralized regulated exchange such as SecondMarket I'd definitely use it for the reason that it is regulated and it is in some ways considered more legitimate at this point in time. But the current exchanges dealing with Bitcoin are all illegitimate, unregulated, and if that is the case there is no moral argument that can be made for a person to choose to use Bitfunder over Mastercoin, Colored coin or whatever other technological solution that can come along and reduce the risk of nationalist lock-out policies, politics, and emotions of whoever is in the center of the centralized market. The attitude should be that we should not design any centralized markets in the first place as that is the main source of the problem with Paypal.

Look at what happens with Paypal or with banks when they decide for political reasons to block certain transactions and not allow certain people to do certain things without explaining their actions. That is the same situation we see with BTCT and Bitfunder. It is part of the reason many people switched out of the big banks and into Bitcoin in the first place.
Decentralization will always tend toward centralization of powers. Always. It's the only way to get anything done, and have any confidence it will get done sufficiently.
And I'm not disputing that disorder tends toward order. The difference is in scales.

Decentralized systems can remain compartmentalized, can remain isolated, can trend toward centralization of information and services without trending toward centralization of control. What I mean is the Bitcoin blockchain is transparent and transparency means centralization of the transaction information such that anyone can access it. This is a good thing because we need that kind of centralization. We also need Bitcointalk to provide a central forum where everyone can access certain information, we need charts, we need indexes, we need information to be accessible from a single point but we do not need that information to originate from a single point.

Distributed sources can combine data into a single point for convenience and I completely agree with you here. But I believe the sources should stay decentralized and I don't think that should become centralized because if all mining and all information comes from one source then according to the math of things you would have to trust that source absolutely. We don't want to trust any source absolutely in any system.
I'm not saying a decentralized exchange method won't be created, I'm just saying it will simply produce new centralized forces around facilitating its existence, which will eventually lead us back to where we started. The pursuit is admirable, and maybe even one worth constantly attempting, but I simply do not believe it can compete with the natural forces of reality.

I don't think it's inevitable. For instance if you look at Bittorrent it is less centralized than Napster. But we also accept that Pirate Bay was a popular central website where people could find the torrents. Google is a central website where people can search for stuff. This isn't going to change. What can change is that power can be decentralized to such a degree that the risk landscape and opportunity landscape changes.

In Bitcoin there will be some players who will have perhaps too much power and money. In a democratic decentralized landscape then we are free to use Litecoins instead as a way to hedge our bets against that. The point here is that the technology can produce an optimal environment, and that means an environment where the user benefits the most, where the system attempts to remain trustless, where it at least starts off decentralized, and always with the ability to shake it up again should centralization become too great.

In the case of Bitcoin if any entity within Bitcoin starts to centralize things to the detriment of Bitcoin then the community should have the capability to decentralize itself or if it cannot then there is Litecoin and that is why so many altcoins exist.
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October 10, 2013, 06:44:45 AM
 #97


I think that simplifies it too much. While there may be some forces that act in the way you describe, the concept is more abstract and powerful than greed or control freaks.

Greed and control freaks are the fuel behind centralization and always have been. It's a human process driven by human behavior.

It's not just greed and control freaks. Information starts as disordered data and over time it becomes structured and ordered as it interacts with human minds. The human mind naturally puts information into a certain order and centralization of some sort is necessary to allow particular information to reach all parties in the optimal amount of time.

What I mean is, we still benefit from having just one website url to memorize rather than having to memorize a random string of characters. This reduces the domain name to being a single point of failure but we accept this as a necessary convenience to allow people to locate and access information.

But that isn't at stake with centralized vs decentralized exchanges. Yes to a certain degree there will still be a need for websites to host certain information but the blockchain is the most central source of information and we don't really need anything more centralized than that. Anything which we need to be centralized in my opinion should be centralized into the blockchain where no one can own or control it and where no trust is needed to manage it. It becomes one with the ultimate source. The price of different shares or bonds will be representened as transactions on the blockchain and then there is no reason to pay transaction fees to centralauthority.com which could decide to do a region lock.

This isn't the first instance of religion locking. Gaming companies like Nintendo and Blizzard are notorious for region locking players for no apparent reason. If Nintendo or Blizzard were distributed and decentralized corporations registered into the Bitcoin blockchain itself, with shares built into the blockchain itself, and everyone working for it paid in their coins which represent stock which can be traded, this would change how we do business.

You could start your own corporation called YourCorp, you could issue YourCorp stock on the Bitcoin blockchain and call it YourCorp coin or YourCorp stock. People could work for YourCorp coin and get paid in that. It would be like each corporation has it's own ability to issue its own alt-coin, it's own stock, each with it's own unique features.

YourCorp could sell video games and say only people who have those coins can buy their games. Suddenly there is massive demand for their coins and everyone who was an employee who got paid in it can sell the coins for Bitcoins.

Yeah there are people who will say "but what about regulations?" but regulations shouldn't get in the way of innovation. Innovate first and figure out how to regulate it second. If you regulate first then regulation will destroy the US economy and keep the world in a recession.
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October 10, 2013, 06:56:49 AM
 #98

Mumbles no one appreciates a Good Stalinist quote   Roll Eyes

In order to achieve something, it is inevitable and necessary that something be destroyed.

What I was saying in the simple Omelette quote is that in order for centralization to be destroyed something must be there to replace it.
While I do not argue it is the opposite decentralization, I do propose an alternative system that combines more than one element around its infrastructure as being a possibility.

But onto another topic the music industry is a bad example, we all know that they are dinosaurs who refuse to adapt and are getting punished for it, but I guess teaching an old dog needs new tricks is quite the challenge. I argue that to stay in the competition a new industry will develop that makes the older ones obsolete but we will see in time. I guess to an extent youtube is a fair example of a decentralized central force, as it allows artists to create content and distribute it to a wide audience with their content creator program while acting as a hub for users to interact with creators.

But for now I am on the sidelines, one could argue though that the idea of 24 hour stock exchanges instead of opening and closing bells is fairly revolutionary ignoring after-hours market trading.

Satoshi said in the bitcoin whitepaper, that we are replacing trust in a system banking etc and replacing it with mathematical algorithms, if we evaluate it from another view we are filtering Big Data and giving it purpose to solve modern problems. Bitcoin took the power of crunching algorithms to create a fixed supply and growth based economic system that has spiraled to its current state and can be proven reliable to an extent. The same possibilities do exist for what we see as a traditional stock exchange albeit not the methods of how it is applied.

For now a tangible observation is where I stand as the status quo is dynamic and does change now and then, and the options unlocked with digitization and encryption based mathematical systems, when applied to stock exchanges may change the traditional way we trade stocks.
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October 10, 2013, 09:23:02 AM
 #99

haha, F*ck yourself, not that terrible.

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October 10, 2013, 04:15:55 PM
 #100

id feel sorry but your American so...HAHA... really the way your people screw over everyone else in the world... the main ones BP, but theres others.... the people are ok well except the retards with the guns who think its a god given right to run around with them...

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