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Author Topic: [BitFunder] WTF! BitFunder Restrictions to US Citizens  (Read 11599 times)
OgonDark
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October 09, 2013, 02:23:27 PM
 #21

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started. 

Look for our private Hedge Fund to open to the World soon!
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October 09, 2013, 02:24:09 PM
 #22

Oh man, havelock should be next.

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October 09, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
 #23

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started.  

Inversely, you also knew the risks going in.
You knew that you were investing in illegal, unregistered stocks.  Or rather most here did.
If you did not, it wasn't for lack of warnings from fudsters, trolls & other sane adults.
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October 09, 2013, 04:19:12 PM
 #24

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started.  

Inversely, you also knew the risks going in.
You knew that you were investing in illegal, unregistered stocks.  Or rather most here did.
If you did not, it wasn't for lack of warnings from fudsters, trolls & other sane adults.


Of course I knew the risks.  And I mitigated them to a large extent by not exposing myself too much to the "securities" sector as a whole. 

OTOH, just saying "inversely" and not addressing the actual argument I put forward isn't an answer.

The exchange operators can't have it both ways, if they didn't understand the risks of running an exchange, and that in doing so they were putting themselves at risk and only woke up to this fact because they've only recently hired lawyers, I'd say that they are downright incompetent and shouldn't be trusted by the community should they try to do something going forward.

If they knew the risk and just got cold feet 6 months into the venture, then I'd say that speaks volumes as to their ethics.  If you were aware of the risks going in, then why did you even start it in the first place if you were going to run away at the first hint of trouble? 

Either way, neither has handled these things as they should have, both while operating and in shutdown mode.  I'm not saying it is easy, I'm just saying that they signed up for the task, and there is an implied type of responsibility there.  As you made clear, the risks were known, shutting down now is either an act of cowardice or incompetence.

It might be both, but it can't be neither. 

Look for our private Hedge Fund to open to the World soon!
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October 09, 2013, 05:33:35 PM
 #25

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started.  

Inversely, you also knew the risks going in.
You knew that you were investing in illegal, unregistered stocks.  Or rather most here did.
If you did not, it wasn't for lack of warnings from fudsters, trolls & other sane adults.
[pool's closed.gif]

Of course I knew the risks.  And I mitigated them to a large extent by not exposing myself too much to the "securities" sector as a whole.  

OTOH, just saying "inversely" and not addressing the actual argument I put forward isn't an answer.

The exchange operators can't have it both ways, if they didn't understand the risks of running an exchange, and that in doing so they were putting themselves at risk and only woke up to this fact because they've only recently hired lawyers, I'd say that they are downright incompetent and shouldn't be trusted by the community should they try to do something going forward.

If they knew the risk and just got cold feet 6 months into the venture, then I'd say that speaks volumes as to their ethics.  If you were aware of the risks going in, then why did you even start it in the first place if you were going to run away at the first hint of trouble?  

Either way, neither has handled these things as they should have, both while operating and in shutdown mode.  I'm not saying it is easy, I'm just saying that they signed up for the task, and there is an implied type of responsibility there.  As you made clear, the risks were known, shutting down now is either an act of cowardice or incompetence.

It might be both, but it can't be neither.  

I'll address you grievance.
The exchange operators understood the shifting legal landscape, and explicitly stated that understanding in the site's user agreements/FAQs.  I'll quote burnside:

No assets on the site are to be considered real.
Nothing is verified. (Do your research!)
The use of this site is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
If an asset issuer on this site defaults, you have ZERO RECOURSE. (not like you have any recourse in most international BTC situations anyway.)


While the aforementioned would be laughed out of every Podunk courthouse, you must agree that it leaves little to interpretation.
If you feel that the wording is ambiguous, please offer a more direct alternative -- i'm at a loss.

If i didn't sufficiently stress that the legal landscape was, and continues to be, in flux, i'll repeat it.  The Pirateat40 case & other developments made it clear that these "virtual" antics had IRL consequences.  As i've mentioned before, the exchange operators attempted to telegraph their intent, going as far as announcing the possibility of restrictions on US citizens, but were shouted down.  Those willing to listen listened.

The exchanges were taking risks, you have opted to bet on the FAQs & user agreements being simply words to fool the regulators.
The regulators weren't fooled.  You were.
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October 09, 2013, 05:46:03 PM
 #26

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

This is a pertinent question. Where is the cease and desist? This shutdown was prompted by something, so where is the correspondence? Why are people content for Ukyo to not give any details about this
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October 09, 2013, 06:27:47 PM
 #27

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

This is a pertinent question. Where is the cease and desist? This shutdown was prompted by something, so where is the correspondence? Why are people content for Ukyo to not give any details about this

Here is the terms and conditions text from Ukyo's site:



Terse.  Concise.  Easy to understand.

No promises of explanations, commitment or Dear John letters.

You knew what this was.
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October 09, 2013, 06:51:25 PM
 #28

Most of the bitcoin economy revolves around the dollar.
That's not really accurate, as Bitstamp converts everything to USD, while its customers are probably mostly coming with EUR.

Also, I bet your source misses most of the CNY exchanges.

Let's assume that *all* of Bitstamp deposits are Euro:



I'm afraid my statement holds true Sad
*But, of course, Bitstamp's volume is not all Euro.  The Euros converted to US Dollars?  Those are dollars too Smiley
luke.watson
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October 09, 2013, 07:06:30 PM
 #29

I've already lost BTC2, not that much compared to some I'm sure, but about BTC2 more than I wanted to lose today..

Is it time to cut the losses and bail, or stick with it. I understand a lot of the market for the stocks was US but seeing as I'm a UK citizen should I follow the trend and get out while I can, or stick with it. The shares obviously still have value, the companies still exist but perhaps the market has just be cut right down..

What are other free citizens doing in this time of need?

IMHO it's the perfect time to get cheap stocks, hopefully we'll see a surge in a few weeks, I don't think the UK will be imposing the same (law)? any time soon

* Is it a law or what, why are US citizens not allowed to hold BTC stocks any more?

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October 09, 2013, 07:17:14 PM
 #30

...
* Is it a law or what, why are US citizens not allowed to hold BTC stocks any more?

Nothing to do with BTC, everything to do with unregistered securities.
And you can buy & hold them as much as you like, it's the selling side that's a big no-no  Sad
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October 09, 2013, 07:22:00 PM
 #31

I'm pretty sure bitfunder.com will be shut down soon..
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October 09, 2013, 09:16:19 PM
 #32

I've lost 60% of all my BTC on BitFunder...in ONE day.
luke.watson
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October 09, 2013, 09:33:15 PM
 #33

...
* Is it a law or what, why are US citizens not allowed to hold BTC stocks any more?

Nothing to do with BTC, everything to do with unregistered securities.
And you can buy & hold them as much as you like, it's the selling side that's a big no-no  Sad

I see, you have to register to sell the shares..

By the looks of things, shares are now going underground, I noticed Additcion mining are allowing you to convert your BF shares to direct shares..

I really hope this doesn't mean the end of crowd funding sites, I guess we just have to sit back and let the US have their rampage and try to pick up the pieces the best we can

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October 09, 2013, 09:51:00 PM
 #34

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.

now, i DID send my govt. of canada provincial photo ID card, which works at airports, boarder crossings, and every other official place that asks for driver's license, and I sent a message to them asking/warning them about this, but it seems they completely ignore all queries for help.

I really hope they address this bullshit cuz I want to sell my shares when I choose, not be forced to sell them before THEIR set deadline. Manipulation opportunity anyone?

Frankly, if I dont get satisfaction, I hope they regulate these assholes right out of the water.

Sig This
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October 09, 2013, 10:14:58 PM
 #35

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry
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October 09, 2013, 11:01:58 PM
 #36

Absolutely absurd. Between the actions of BTCT and BF I have lost just about everything I invested. BitFunder just a few weeks ago said they had no intent on closing and accepted the transfer of shares from BTCT - as soon as they get over there they pull this nonsense.
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October 09, 2013, 11:40:26 PM
 #37

Absolutely absurd. Between the actions of BTCT and BF I have lost just about everything I invested. BitFunder just a few weeks ago said they had no intent on closing and accepted the transfer of shares from BTCT - as soon as they get over there they pull this nonsense.

Thats what you get for trusting.
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October 10, 2013, 04:37:12 AM
 #38

Absolutely absurd. Between the actions of BTCT and BF I have lost just about everything I invested. BitFunder just a few weeks ago said they had no intent on closing and accepted the transfer of shares from BTCT - as soon as they get over there they pull this nonsense.

Thats what you get for trusting.

My sense for day trading was to sell every asset once before to go to sleep or go to away from Internet and still I don't get easy having funds in this kind of sites.

I hope soon we have something like colored coins in beta.
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October 10, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
 #39

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry

Why do you think that they want gov.t issued driver's license to begin with?  Here's a hint: it's the nanny-state.  They are causing this issue for our disabled friend, and he (justly so IMHO) is stating that if they are going to fuck him because of nanny-state id requirements, he hopes it takes them full circle and fucks the site too.

Nowhere did he call on the nanny state to intervene on his behalf.
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October 10, 2013, 04:42:40 PM
 #40

The cool thing is that I now have to sell everything on BF since I don't have a driver licence and any credit card.

But the funniest thing is:

Code:
Credit Card (Front Only!)

You only need the front face of a credit card to use it.
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