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Author Topic: [BitFunder] WTF! BitFunder Restrictions to US Citizens  (Read 11597 times)
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October 14, 2013, 03:18:43 AM
 #81

"Bitcoin may be an item of value by one or more people" really?? This article pretends that the sole purpose of bitcoin isn't to store value. And the day that people begin using runescape cash/microsoft points to exchange securities I'm sure that SEC will be on their ass too.

You should look at Eve online then - there have been securities issued there for years in their currency ISK.  Or second-life for that matter.  Not seen the SEC making a fuss about either.  And both of those can be traded for USD (very openly in the case of second-life currency).

The fact that something CAN be used as money/currency isn't sufficient for it to be legally considered as BEING money or currency.  That's what you're missing.  It doesn't matter what your intention, my intention, Satoshi's intention or MPOE-PR's intention is when we hold/buy/sell/trade BTC.  What matters is how your jurisdiction defines BTC.  In the US that's now tending towards it being treated as being money/currency - in at least some situations.  In other jurisdictions (e.g. the UK) at present it is NOT considered as being a currency or money and we have none of the regulatory limitations that the US are attempting to impose (though, of course, that's always subject to change).

Same worn-out arguments.  "How cum they don't regulate gamez, huh?"

For the same reason they don't charge children playing cops & robbers with impersonating an officer -- 'coz they're smart that way.
But if enough dope gets bought with ISK, and if EVE players start acting up like naughty little revolutionaries, they'll get slapped too.
Now behave.
 
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October 14, 2013, 03:41:23 AM
 #82

"Bitcoin may be an item of value by one or more people" really?? This article pretends that the sole purpose of bitcoin isn't to store value. And the day that people begin using runescape cash/microsoft points to exchange securities I'm sure that SEC will be on their ass too.

You should look at Eve online then - there have been securities issued there for years in their currency ISK.  Or second-life for that matter.  Not seen the SEC making a fuss about either.  And both of those can be traded for USD (very openly in the case of second-life currency).

The fact that something CAN be used as money/currency isn't sufficient for it to be legally considered as BEING money or currency.  That's what you're missing.  It doesn't matter what your intention, my intention, Satoshi's intention or MPOE-PR's intention is when we hold/buy/sell/trade BTC.  What matters is how your jurisdiction defines BTC.  In the US that's now tending towards it being treated as being money/currency - in at least some situations.  In other jurisdictions (e.g. the UK) at present it is NOT considered as being a currency or money and we have none of the regulatory limitations that the US are attempting to impose (though, of course, that's always subject to change).

Same worn-out arguments.  "How cum they don't regulate gamez, huh?"

For the same reason they don't charge children playing cops & robbers with impersonating an officer -- 'coz they're smart that way.
But if enough dope gets bought with ISK, and if EVE players start acting up like naughty little revolutionaries, they'll get slapped too.
Now behave.
 

Hmm, let me make one thing perfectly clear - as maybe you don't understand my position.

I AGREE with you that it appears clear the US are now considering Bitcoin as money (for some purposes) - and it would be exceedingly unwise for someone based in the US to startup a Bitcoin exchange serving US investors.  But I'm not based in the US - and am only concerned with their laws to the extent that they're in accordance with those of a jurisdiction in which I operate (or where compliance with them is covered by a treaty/understanding/whatever).  If I (or anyone else) operates in a jurisdiction where Bitcoin is NOT considered as being money then what some judge in Texas says is neither here nor there.

Ask yourself why, when the largest poker sites were not just serving - but actively targetting - US customers (despite the US saying it was illegal) no action was taken against them for doing that.  They DID eventually run into trouble - but it wasn't for providing the service, but for misrepresenting financial transactions to banks/FSPs (to get around laws brought in that prevented US banks/FSPs handling their transactions if they were honestly identified).

The US can't (in general - there are exceptions) prevent those in other jurisdictions conducting business that's legal even if it involves serving US customers.  In the same way that the US government doesn't insist any website criticising the North Korean Government requests KYC/AML identification from every user to ensure they don't supply it to North Korean residents (where, for the purpose of this post, we'll assume such material is illegal).  If a country wants to stop its citizens doing something that is legal elsewhere then the onus is on the country to block it - not on every business in every other country in the world to expend time and effort complying with every whim of every dictatorship.  Shocking as it may seem to every US citizen, your country does NOT have the right to expect everyone else to jump through hoops to ensure we don't happen to provide something to you which your government would prefer you not to have.
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October 14, 2013, 03:55:09 AM
 #83

"Bitcoin may be an item of value by one or more people" really?? This article pretends that the sole purpose of bitcoin isn't to store value. And the day that people begin using runescape cash/microsoft points to exchange securities I'm sure that SEC will be on their ass too.

You should look at Eve online then - there have been securities issued there for years in their currency ISK.  Or second-life for that matter.  Not seen the SEC making a fuss about either.  And both of those can be traded for USD (very openly in the case of second-life currency).

The fact that something CAN be used as money/currency isn't sufficient for it to be legally considered as BEING money or currency.  That's what you're missing.  It doesn't matter what your intention, my intention, Satoshi's intention or MPOE-PR's intention is when we hold/buy/sell/trade BTC.  What matters is how your jurisdiction defines BTC.  In the US that's now tending towards it being treated as being money/currency - in at least some situations.  In other jurisdictions (e.g. the UK) at present it is NOT considered as being a currency or money and we have none of the regulatory limitations that the US are attempting to impose (though, of course, that's always subject to change).

Eve's will be regulated the day that they exchange millions of US dollars worth of their currency through security trading daily. As far as i know the Eve economy moves around $50,000 daily, so not much to be regulated. According to bitcoinwatch Bitcoins market cap is over 1 Billion USD at current rates.

Bitcoin may be considered currency by the feds or it might not but I think we all know its only a matter of time before it is considered currency so why would we waste our time/money with exchanges knowing that they are going to get shut down the second they do clearly define bitcoin as money/causing share prices to plummet.

Also about the UK not having the regulatory environment the US has have you seen this link?

https://www.sec.gov/about/offices/oia/oia_cooparrangements.shtml

This to me says that it really doesn't matter where you are hosting this service, once it becomes a big enough problem the feds will go after it.

I still think the only solutions are at least try to comply with SEC, or use something decentralized like colored coins that cant be shut down affecting shareholders.

Quote
Shocking as it may seem to every US citizen, your country does NOT have the right to expect everyone else to jump through hoops to ensure we don't happen to provide something to you which your government would prefer you not to have.

I think most US citizens will agree that it is bullshit that the US implies its laws on other countries especially when not even involving US citizens but then again those countries did agree to enforce them.
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October 14, 2013, 04:06:45 AM
 #84

"Bitcoin may be an item of value by one or more people" really?? This article pretends that the sole purpose of bitcoin isn't to store value. And the day that people begin using runescape cash/microsoft points to exchange securities I'm sure that SEC will be on their ass too.

You should look at Eve online then - there have been securities issued there for years in their currency ISK.  Or second-life for that matter.  Not seen the SEC making a fuss about either.  And both of those can be traded for USD (very openly in the case of second-life currency).

The fact that something CAN be used as money/currency isn't sufficient for it to be legally considered as BEING money or currency.  That's what you're missing.  It doesn't matter what your intention, my intention, Satoshi's intention or MPOE-PR's intention is when we hold/buy/sell/trade BTC.  What matters is how your jurisdiction defines BTC.  In the US that's now tending towards it being treated as being money/currency - in at least some situations.  In other jurisdictions (e.g. the UK) at present it is NOT considered as being a currency or money and we have none of the regulatory limitations that the US are attempting to impose (though, of course, that's always subject to change).

Same worn-out arguments.  "How cum they don't regulate gamez, huh?"

For the same reason they don't charge children playing cops & robbers with impersonating an officer -- 'coz they're smart that way.
But if enough dope gets bought with ISK, and if EVE players start acting up like naughty little revolutionaries, they'll get slapped too.
Now behave.
 

Hmm, let me make one thing perfectly clear - as maybe you don't understand my position.

I AGREE with you that it appears clear the US are now considering Bitcoin as money (for some purposes) - and it would be exceedingly unwise for someone based in the US to startup a Bitcoin exchange serving US investors.  But I'm not based in the US - and am only concerned with their laws to the extent that they're in accordance with those of a jurisdiction in which I operate (or where compliance with them is covered by a treaty/understanding/whatever).  If I (or anyone else) operates in a jurisdiction where Bitcoin is NOT considered as being money then what some judge in Texas says is neither here nor there.

Ask yourself why, when the largest poker sites were not just serving - but actively targetting - US customers (despite the US saying it was illegal) no action was taken against them for doing that.  They DID eventually run into trouble - but it wasn't for providing the service, but for misrepresenting financial transactions to banks/FSPs (to get around laws brought in that prevented US banks/FSPs handling their transactions if they were honestly identified).

The US can't (in general - there are exceptions) prevent those in other jurisdictions conducting business that's legal even if it involves serving US customers.  In the same way that the US government doesn't insist any website criticising the North Korean Government requests KYC/AML identification from every user to ensure they don't supply it to North Korean residents (where, for the purpose of this post, we'll assume such material is illegal).  If a country wants to stop its citizens doing something that is legal elsewhere then the onus is on the country to block it - not on every business in every other country in the world to expend time and effort complying with every whim of every dictatorship.  Shocking as it may seem to every US citizen, your country does NOT have the right to expect everyone else to jump through hoops to ensure we don't happen to provide something to you which your government would prefer you not to have.

Let me explain why it's important for you to behave:



Where teh US dollar is involved, US has jurisdiction.  Or, at least, US feels it has jurisdiction, which proves to be functionally identical to having said jurisdiction.
Everything else is fluff & sophistry -- commit it then to the flames.
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October 14, 2013, 01:15:19 PM
 #85

Arguments I found weak:
 
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I. The Securities and Exchange Comission is governed principally by the Securities Act of 1933, which gives a definition of a security as follows :

1. Investment of Money towards a 2. Common Enterprise which 3. Depends on the Efforts of Others

That's not an argument, it's a point of fact. We're dealing with what is here, are you suggesting that people act so as to anticipate what "everybody thinks" (where everybody excludes those actually familiar with the topic) will happen in the future? What's next, tarot cards?

Quote
II. It is our considered opinion that Bitcoin does not constitute either “Money” as discussed in the second reference nor does a purchase of a Bitcoin denominated virtual security such as offered on MPEx constitute “the placing of capital or laying out of money” as discussed in the first reference.
Why does bitcoin not constitute money/capital? It is clear that bitcoins do hold a monetary value or they wouldn't be constantly selling for $100+ USD.

That you are able to sell something for money does not mean that something is money. I'd urge you to read more about currency and money in general and think for yourself about these concepts rather than depending on, again, "what everybody knows" etc.

"Bitcoin may be an item of value by one or more people" really?? This article pretends that the sole purpose of bitcoin isn't to store value. And the day that people begin using runescape cash/microsoft points to exchange securities I'm sure that SEC will be on their ass too.

It's not pretending anything, and again, this isn't about what the uninitiated "are sure will happen". What the uninitiated are sure will happen is common speculation, and there's a reason the actual players don't get themselves tripped up with it. As you've seen, those who would like to play but either cannot or remain willfully clueless do end up tripping.

I still think the only solutions are at least try to comply with SEC, or use something decentralized like colored coins that cant be shut down affecting shareholders.

Quote
Shocking as it may seem to every US citizen, your country does NOT have the right to expect everyone else to jump through hoops to ensure we don't happen to provide something to you which your government would prefer you not to have.

I think most US citizens will agree that it is bullshit that the US implies its laws on other countries especially when not even involving US citizens but that happens to be how it is.

The notion that anything not carrying the still-retarded, still-playpretend citizen finance banner, whether it's p2p or whatever else, will be shut down "because US" is very mistaken and probably an artifact of confused observation of how the play exchanges have crumbled thus far. That inept stuff ends up being unable to stand has zero bearing on the apt.

This entire "you should try to fit facts into uninformed guesses about the future to appease the gods which have no business here and which we wish would stop infringing on people but whom we insist will hide under your bed and eat you up at night" is really silly. Let it go already.

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October 14, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
 #86

Your entire argument is that bitcoin might not be considered money. We already know that the federal government has in the biggest bitcoin related court case, considered bitcoin money. So with the feds and a majority of bitcoin users (all I know) considering bitcoins money what makes you think it isn't money?

You are in fact playing pretend by imagining bitcoin isn't money while trying to avoid the simple security laws that have existed forever. It doesn't matter what you/internet sleuths/marriam websters top definitionists think, all that matters is what the feds think and we already know that in at least 1 case they rules bitcoin as being money.

So you guys can keep making exchange sites that dont comply and will eventually get shut down until the next shitty exchange opens and repeats the process.

or you could run an actual security exchange like every other existing exchange in this world.

You say that colored coins or any p2p would also get shut down. How exactly? Its not as easy as knocking on someones door and intimidating them in to shutting down their illegal operation.

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October 14, 2013, 10:10:34 PM
 #87

No, seriously. You need to chill out and read, gain a perspective. You're in no position to tell me what's what. Curiosity is fine and good, ignoring sense and authority to rehash the same broken assumptions over and over is not.

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October 14, 2013, 10:24:22 PM
 #88

No, seriously. You need to chill out and read, gain a perspective. You're in no position to tell me what's what. Curiosity is fine and good, ignoring sense and authority to rehash the same broken assumptions over and over is not.

read what? Im trying to have a discussion but it doesn't seem that's happening. You are just saying I'm wrong without providing tour reasoning.


BitCOIN
"is a cryptoCURRENCY" - wikipedia
"Bitcoin is an experimental, decentralized digital CURRENCY"

Coins: pieces of hard material used primarily as a medium of exchange or legal tender

"In August 2013 Germany's Finance Ministry subsumed Bitcoins under the term "unit of account"—a financial instrument" -wiki

To be clear I do understand that there is a grey area whether btc is considered currency or not. I am only saying that it is my opinion that it will eventually be clearly regulated/defined and id rather be exchanging on a site that is already complying with the laws we know are either already in place, or will be put in place eventually. I find ir highly unlikely that the feds say "oh well since its not real money go ahead and sell illegal drugs/securities/whatever"

I would love to hear your opinion and reasoning, not just that I am wrong and that I should go educate myself more.
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