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Author Topic: [BitFunder] WTF! BitFunder Restrictions to US Citizens  (Read 11705 times)
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October 10, 2013, 05:57:03 PM
 #41

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry

Why do you think that they want gov.t issued driver's license to begin with?  Here's a hint: it's the nanny-state.  They are causing this issue for our disabled friend, and he (justly so IMHO) is stating that if they are going to fuck him because of nanny-state id requirements, he hopes it takes them full circle and fucks the site too.

Nowhere did he call on the nanny state to intervene on his behalf.

ORLY?
    "Frankly, if I dont get satisfaction, I hope they regulate these assholes right out of the water."

A vindictive call for the statist dogs to ruin the service for our able-bodied friends if a business doesn't cater to his "special needs."  Next he'll be asking for government to distribute the wealth, just because he was born poorer than me.  Unacceptable!

He should better himself or accept his station in life, not call on the government thugs to regulate a struggling business Angry
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October 10, 2013, 10:23:33 PM
 #42

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry

they accepted my photo ID, I'm verified now, but your attitude towards people with barriers is still stuck in Nazi Germany circa 1939. I could go get a driver's license, you know. I do not have to disclose my medical condition, and I know epileptics who drive despite the risk, but out of consideration for the rest of the society I live in, and the safety of my fellow citizens I deign not to get behind the wheel, because I never know when a grand mal will come on and I will drive into pedestrians/ on-coming traffic/private properties/pets & animals.

But hey listen, you're obviously a forward thinking guy, how bout I do go get my license and go joyriding around your granny's house or the school where your kids attend. Fuck the rules, eh?

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October 10, 2013, 11:17:53 PM
 #43

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry

they accepted my photo ID, I'm verified now, but your attitude towards people with barriers is still stuck in Nazi Germany circa 1939. I could go get a driver's license, you know. I do not have to disclose my medical condition, and I know epileptics who drive despite the risk, but out of consideration for the rest of the society I live in, and the safety of my fellow citizens I deign not to get behind the wheel, because I never know when a grand mal will come on and I will drive into pedestrians/ on-coming traffic/private properties/pets & animals.

But hey listen, you're obviously a forward thinking guy, how bout I do go get my license and go joyriding around your granny's house or the school where your kids attend. Fuck the rules, eh?

If terrorizing a struggling business into accepting your substandard ID wasn't enough, you now go on to threaten my children and my kindly grandma with your brutish reckless "driving"?

You don't frighten me, buster!  I have dedicated American Patriots guarding my boarders, they'll spot you for the terrorist weapon of mass destruction that you are, and then BAM!  Guantanamo!

Better keep your dangerous self to your God-forsaken backwater foregny, and stay out of my Land of the Free -- we have STANDARDS here. Angry

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October 10, 2013, 11:37:06 PM
 #44

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started. 

This is exactly it. Pretending that the stocks were for educational purposes was a joke. Any company that takes in the equivalent of millions of dollars USD from investors is definitely not for educational purposes and should expect to be regulated like every other business in the united states. So clearly both of these exchanges were operating illegally, is there any reason to believe havelock is not going to suffer the same fate? Has anyone actually looked through their terms and how they operate carefully because it seems we only ever come to realize how incompetent these companies are after they have already fucked us over.
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October 10, 2013, 11:43:24 PM
 #45

...
This is exactly it. Pretending that the stocks were for educational purposes was a joke. Any company that takes in the equivalent of millions of dollars USD from investors is definitely not for educational purposes and should expect to be regulated like every other business in the united states. So clearly both of these exchanges were operating illegally, is there any reason to believe havelock is not going to suffer the same fate? Has anyone actually looked through their terms and how they operate carefully because it seems we only ever come to realize how incompetent these companies are after they have already fucked us over.

You didn't realize these exchanges weren't regulated?  That's incredible Shocked
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October 10, 2013, 11:51:09 PM
 #46

...
This is exactly it. Pretending that the stocks were for educational purposes was a joke. Any company that takes in the equivalent of millions of dollars USD from investors is definitely not for educational purposes and should expect to be regulated like every other business in the united states. So clearly both of these exchanges were operating illegally, is there any reason to believe havelock is not going to suffer the same fate? Has anyone actually looked through their terms and how they operate carefully because it seems we only ever come to realize how incompetent these companies are after they have already fucked us over.

You didn't realize these exchanges weren't regulated?  That's incredible Shocked

There should be a banner on the homepage saying "we will in no way attempt to comply with the US law". Do we have any actual details as to why these exchanges are shutting down? As far as I am understanding they just aren't complying with SEC's standards which don't seem too unfair in my opinion. I would love a bitcoin based stock exchange that actually does comply with US laws sort of like how many bitcoin exchanges operate legally in the US.
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October 11, 2013, 12:17:44 AM
 #47

...
This is exactly it. Pretending that the stocks were for educational purposes was a joke. Any company that takes in the equivalent of millions of dollars USD from investors is definitely not for educational purposes and should expect to be regulated like every other business in the united states. So clearly both of these exchanges were operating illegally, is there any reason to believe havelock is not going to suffer the same fate? Has anyone actually looked through their terms and how they operate carefully because it seems we only ever come to realize how incompetent these companies are after they have already fucked us over.

You didn't realize these exchanges weren't regulated?  That's incredible Shocked

There should be a banner on the homepage saying "we will in no way attempt to comply with the US law". Do we have any actual details as to why these exchanges are shutting down? As far as I am understanding they just aren't complying with SEC's standards which don't seem too unfair in my opinion. I would love a bitcoin based stock exchange that actually does comply with US laws sort of like how many bitcoin exchanges operate legally in the US.

Let me make sure i understand you:

1.  You hear about a crypto-related internet company, unregistered or registered in Belize or the Caymans.
2.  A guy on the internet tells you to invest.
3.  You are directed to a website, a "Virtual Exchange."
4a. Site tells you that nothing on the site is real, everything is for "entertainment or educational purposes only."
4b. Site tells you .
5.  ? ? ?
6,  You "invest" money anyway, expecting to "PROFIT!"

You don't see anything ... unusual here?

Edit:  you might find this exchange between burnside & Ukyo, from about a year ago, a fun read.

 
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October 11, 2013, 12:30:23 AM
 #48

There should be a banner on the homepage saying "we will in no way attempt to comply with the US law". Do we have any actual details as to why these exchanges are shutting down? As far as I am understanding they just aren't complying with SEC's standards which don't seem too unfair in my opinion. I would love a bitcoin based stock exchange that actually does comply with US laws sort of like how many bitcoin exchanges operate legally in the US.

I don't think there are any bitcoin exchanges operating legally in the U.S. It is possible that there will never be.

There currently aren't and yes that is possible.

There are only two solutions.

A) Technological via a decentralized exchange.
B) Political via lobbying efforts to pass laws for customized regulation to cater to our needs.

I think both solutions should be pursued simultaneously. If lawmakers don't listen now, they'll listen when the tools are made and the pressure builds. Lawmakers can get together to pass a law to allow for Bitcoin exchanges but until that happens the technology is unregulated. The legal status is unknown although I do know that it's not legal to run an unlicensed centralized exchange.
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October 11, 2013, 12:36:22 AM
 #49

... The legal status is unknown although I do know that it's not legal to run an unlicensed centralized exchange.

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???
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October 11, 2013, 01:07:08 AM
 #50

There should be a banner on the homepage saying "we will in no way attempt to comply with the US law". Do we have any actual details as to why these exchanges are shutting down? As far as I am understanding they just aren't complying with SEC's standards which don't seem too unfair in my opinion. I would love a bitcoin based stock exchange that actually does comply with US laws sort of like how many bitcoin exchanges operate legally in the US.

I don't think there are any bitcoin exchanges operating legally in the U.S. It is possible that there will never be.

There currently aren't and yes that is possible.

There are only two solutions.

A) Technological via a decentralized exchange.
B) Political via lobbying efforts to pass laws for customized regulation to cater to our needs.

I think both solutions should be pursued simultaneously. If lawmakers don't listen now, they'll listen when the tools are made and the pressure builds. Lawmakers can get together to pass a law to allow for Bitcoin exchanges but until that happens the technology is unregulated. The legal status is unknown although I do know that it's not legal to run an unlicensed centralized exchange.

I might be wrong but aren't campbx and coinbase operating legally in the us?

And I completely agree with your two solutions. We either need a fully decantralized exchange (like colored coins) where these sketchy stocks can prosper freely, or a regulated centralized exchange that would probably be more expensive but I would be willing to pay for better insurance.
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October 11, 2013, 01:08:43 AM
 #51

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???

Maybe some of the legitimate businesses that are already registered and want to incorporate bitcoin funding?
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October 11, 2013, 01:09:21 AM
 #52

... The legal status is unknown although I do know that it's not legal to run an unlicensed centralized exchange.

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???

It's not currently possible to start a licensed exchange. There aren't any laws to make it possible.

The first step is to start a lobbying effort through DATA http://datauthority.org/ to create a new set of laws to make it possible. Otherwise the decentralized route will be the only path left to take.  
I might be wrong but aren't campbx and coinbase operating legally in the us?

And I completely agree with your two solutions. We either need a fully decantralized exchange (like colored coins) where these sketchy stocks can prosper freely, or a regulated centralized exchange that would probably be more expensive but I would be willing to pay for better insurance.

I think we will end up with both. It's a Napster type situation where Napster has just shut down and we all know what happens next technologically. It's inevitable that a decentralized exchange will happen and the region lock was probably the single decision that was the impetus for it. Ukyo's decision will have a ripple effect.

The technological solution is not a long term solution, it's a bootstrapping. The technological solution will eventually be regulated and that will be the long term solution.

A centralized exchange is a legal impossibility according to the vague US laws. You can thank the lack of foresight of US politicians for that. DATA authority may be able to bring some foresight into the lawmaking process and we probably need think tanks for this space.



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October 11, 2013, 01:18:47 AM
 #53

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???

It's not currently possible to start a licensed exchange. There aren't any laws to make it possible.

Huh
http://www.sec.gov/divisions/marketreg.shtml
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October 11, 2013, 01:21:14 AM
 #54

It is also partially restricted to canadian and other users. As they force you to go through weexchange (false volume) they are going to prevent you from doing even this unless you have provided a selection of id documents totalling 100 points, but if you do not posses a drivers license there is NO WAY to get 100 points. I've got credit card (25 points), utility bill (25 points), passport (40 points) but no driver's license. I have epilepsy. Trust me, you DO NOT want me driving on public roads. so this means, due to a medical condition, that is no fault of my own, I am probably unable to use weexchange, and therefore, on nov 1st, totally unable to use bitfunder either.
...

Access for people with disabilities is made possible through the very government regulations we try to avoid.
It is not a right.
Illness, much like poverty and lack of intelligence, hinders your ability to compete in this -- the free market.
Sad but true.
Kindly refrain from calling on the nanny-state to intervene on your behalf to regulate bitcoin entrepreneurs out of existence Angry

they accepted my photo ID, I'm verified now, but your attitude towards people with barriers is still stuck in Nazi Germany circa 1939. I could go get a driver's license, you know. I do not have to disclose my medical condition, and I know epileptics who drive despite the risk, but out of consideration for the rest of the society I live in, and the safety of my fellow citizens I deign not to get behind the wheel, because I never know when a grand mal will come on and I will drive into pedestrians/ on-coming traffic/private properties/pets & animals.

But hey listen, you're obviously a forward thinking guy, how bout I do go get my license and go joyriding around your granny's house or the school where your kids attend. Fuck the rules, eh?

I think you're just affraid to drive Wink

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October 11, 2013, 01:39:16 AM
 #55

... I forgot about CampBX.
...
Maybe it's better that way.  At first glance:

Newsflash:  Dwolla yanking support on Oct. 15.
Search CampBX->Parent co:



Lawdy, why?
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October 11, 2013, 01:48:32 AM
 #56

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???

It's not currently possible to start a licensed exchange. There aren't any laws to make it possible.

Huh
http://www.sec.gov/divisions/marketreg.shtml

Those laws don't apply to cryptocurrencies or Bitcoin.
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October 11, 2013, 01:54:39 AM
 #57

...and if someone bites the bullet and starts a licensed exchange, the fun's only starting -- where to find registered securities to trade???

It's not currently possible to start a licensed exchange. There aren't any laws to make it possible.

Huh
http://www.sec.gov/divisions/marketreg.shtml

Those laws don't apply to cryptocurrencies or Bitcoin.


Sauce?
And which "those laws" are them those?

P.S:  US law is THE OPPOSITE of access control on Apache servers.  It works like this:

Allow all
Deny Bad.thing.1, Bad.thing.2, ...

Horrible way to secure a server, 'coz everything not explicitly forbidden is ALLOWED.
No law?  Then shit's allowed.  See?
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October 11, 2013, 02:10:49 AM
 #58

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246228.msg3316856#msg3316856

I've posted a proposal to potentially help US investors to reduce loss from forced selling at lower price.
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October 11, 2013, 01:25:11 PM
 #59

where these sketchy stocks can prosper freely

But see, why would you want sketchy stocks in the first place? This basically devolves into an argument over how to save the Twinkies that were masquerading as real food, made a bunch of people sick, and ended up proving unfeasible for everyone involved.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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October 11, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
 #60

where these sketchy stocks can prosper freely

But see, why would you want sketchy stocks in the first place? This basically devolves into an argument over how to save the Twinkies that were masquerading as real food, made a bunch of people sick, and ended up proving unfeasible for everyone involved.

Your twinkies comparison doesn't make any sense at all.

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