[Brainstorm] Implications of Blacklisting DPR's Seized Bitcoins

[Nemesis]

You don't.

That's how cash works.

Wrong, go rob some fresh bills from the bank and see if you can deposit it at another bank.

If all exchanges join up and block list the coins, it would be enough to make them rather useless.

But i think MtGox will just "seize" them for themselves.... remember bitcoinia?

[1715017844]

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[1715017844]

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[User705]

One of the most effective disruptive activities I imagine the Feds or banking industry could do, is publish their own white/blacklists of coins, with the implications that as long as businesses accept only whitelisted and/or refuse any blacklisted coins, that they have the blessings of the powers that be.

Of course, this wouldn't really stop anyone from using blacklisted coins, and especially those outside the US could do as they please... those who didn't honor the fed's coloring of coins would not be impeded in any way... but I will bet that if the fed colors the coins, they could successfully force the market to start tracking a different market price for their different colors of coins.

At that point aren't they better off simply launching an "officially authorized" bitcoin clone?

[lucasjkr]

People use Bitcoin because cryptography controls there money. The advantage of Bitcoin is that nobody can take away your properly secured money except through coercion. Getting rid of this fundamental part of Bitcoin has devastating effects on what Bitcoin stands for.

Then we should blacklist every coin that's ever been stolen via keystroke logger, Trojan, account hack, or anything else nefarious. Except that could do away with far more coins than the FBI got.

Or, you don't like a world with violence and cohersion? What are you options when you buy coins from me (or I otherwise find out your address) and send you an email - give me 10% of your total BTC holdings or else me and my entire syndicate will add your coins to the blacklist? What can you possibly do?  Sure, I dint have a syndicate currently, but if you allow for blacklisting, you'd better believe syndicates will pop up all over.

Think things through. To the logical final conclusion. It's not as cut and dried as you'd like.

[angelamerkel]

Then we should blacklist every coin that's ever been stolen via keystroke logger, Trojan, account hack, or anything else nefarious. Except that could do away with far more coins than the FBI got.

Or, you don't like a world with violence and cohersion? What are you options when you buy coins from me (or I otherwise find out your address) and send you an email - give me 10% of your total BTC holdings or else me and my entire syndicate will add your coins to the blacklist? What can you possibly do?  Sure, I dint have a syndicate currently, but if you allow for blacklisting, you'd better believe syndicates will pop up all over.

Think things through. To the logical final conclusion. It's not as cut and dried as you'd like.

That sounds more and more like a private Bitcoin police. It might sound strange, but I like the idea because unlike in the real world people can and will easily opt out if they become corrupt.
The thing with the syndicate dominating everything is a myth. Monopolies only work with physical force or the threat of the same.

[lucasjkr]

No need for physical force, if i'm able to corrupt the system based on the rules of the system.

How do people get added to the blacklist? I assume someone has to do so manually? And how is a consensus reached? Votes? Do people have to register their real life identities in order to vote? Or do they just vote by registering?

It's way too easy to game this system. No need for physical violence or threat thereof. You simply threaten to make someones coin horde unspendable. Either by having lots of people register to vote you onto the blacklist (i assume that it would be done via email address or, worst, cell phone number), both are very easy to come by.

Explain precisely how do you stop this?

[angelamerkel]

No need for physical force, if i'm able to corrupt the system based on the rules of the system.

How do people get added to the blacklist? I assume someone has to do so manually? And how is a consensus reached? Votes? Do people have to register their real life identities in order to vote? Or do they just vote by registering?

It's way too easy to game this system. No need for physical violence or threat thereof. You simply threaten to make someones coin horde unspendable. Either by having lots of people register to vote you onto the blacklist (i assume that it would be done via email address or, worst, cell phone number), both are very easy to come by.

Explain precisely how do you stop this?

I guess there will be very few security agencies, who people will report crimes to and who will look into the cases. People can subscribe to one of these agencies if they trust their judgement. Maybe there will be only one really big agency. But I don't see any room for corruption as blacklisting is not permanent and people can easily switch agencies.

[Rez]

Quite simply, adding blacklisting to the protocol will eventually cripple bitcoin, probably kill it. Human nature will guarantee that.

And that's why government(s) will almost certainly insist upon blacklisting in the protocol as a condition of acceptance as legal tender - whether it's by central authority or a decentralized system.

No need for physical force, if i'm able to corrupt the system based on the rules of the system.

How do people get added to the blacklist? I assume someone has to do so manually? And how is a consensus reached? Votes? Do people have to register their real life identities in order to vote? Or do they just vote by registering?

It's way too easy to game this system. No need for physical violence or threat thereof. You simply threaten to make someones coin horde unspendable. Either by having lots of people register to vote you onto the blacklist (i assume that it would be done via email address or, worst, cell phone number), both are very easy to come by.

Explain precisely how do you stop this?

[Rez]

I believe no core developer or anyone should tell anyone if Bitcoin should be neutral or anything. The people should decide whether they want to use the Blacklist-Client or the original.  I'm willing to donate BTCs for the first coder to provide a Client with a Blacklist option.  

And when someone decides to force your assets onto the blacklist in retaliation, or some other perceived slight? Who will be the one providing oversight? And how will we trust them? Will it be a cabal of the 1% of Bitcoin owners? A coalition of government organizations? And what recourse will you have once someone declares your wallet full of fraudulent funds? What happens if the judgment of whatever "authority" deems your appeal invalid and your funds remain forever black-marked?

Do you really want to continue down this road? Sounds like there's more 'force' involved here than in neutrality.

Also, we'll have to have a look in your pocketbook.  Some of these notes might need to be blackmarked.

Seriously, though, feel free to create a whole new coin that integrates your ideas into it and let the market decide. I'm quite sure that "Confis-Coin" will be a huge success. 

[Shallow]

It would go against the whole your coins can't be "frozen" line.

[angelamerkel]

And when someone decides to force your assets onto the blacklist in retaliation, or some other perceived slight? Who will be the one providing oversight? And how will we trust them? Will it be a cabal of the 1% of Bitcoin owners? A coalition of government organizations? And what recourse will you have once someone declares your wallet full of fraudulent funds? What happens if the judgment of whatever "authority" deems your appeal invalid and your funds remain forever black-marked?

Like i said, i guess there will be very few independent agencies who will take care of the blacklist.  Trust and reputation has to grow over the years I'm afraid. And yes if a member of this agency decides to screw you over, you can do nothing about it.  

But it will be very unlikely that you will be affected by such a corruption. As soon as the corruption spreads and public becomes aware of it, people will start using another agency.

You basically can ask all the same questions about the legal system in the real world. And like in all societies, also libertarian ones, it holds true:

Most people are willing to pay that small price (of possible corruption) to have a working legal system (forced right now in the real world  or unforced in libertarian & Bitcoin society) that takes care of the bad guys.  

Another thought:   We now have market participants, we have a currency, we have goods being traded  and we now need a legal system around it, because the current real world legal system is unable to cope with problems that may occur.  As market participants are unable to track down  and bitcoins can be easily laundered  the only way for the real world legal system to cope with bitcoin-criminals is to shut down Bitcoin completely.  I'm really afraid, what will happen, if first criminals discover Bitcoin and all the possibilites around it we can't even think of right now...

The first criminal, who stole 144K coins and will probably use parts of it to kill civilians in  just another innocent country,  just recently entered the market :-)

[hazek]

It would go against the whole your coins can't be "frozen" line.

Coins weren't frozen, coins were stolen.

[leopard2]

the FBI won them fair and square.

yeah, if by won you mean stolen and if by fair you mean using violence and coercion

You cannot call that stealing. If violence or threat of violence is used, it is a robbery. The FBI is a bunch of armed gangsters who robs their victims 

[Birdy]

You and several other people blacklist it and vow to never accept bitcoins from that address.

And the rest of us will accept them and they will propagate out to the whole network.

Unless nearly all Bitcoiners blacklist them (and I doubt this is possible), they would spread more and more among the people who accept them.
Then you have two versions of Bitcoins that aren't able to trade with each other...

So yeah, awful idea.

[hazek]

the FBI won them fair and square.

yeah, if by won you mean stolen and if by fair you mean using violence and coercion

You cannot call that stealing. If violence or threat of violence is used, it is a robbery. The FBI is a bunch of armed gangsters who robs their victims 

Right, robbed is what I meant. 

[drawingthesun]

I hope all the people here advocating a blacklist are trolling. Its probably telling how ineffective a blacklist will be because none of the core developers have bothered to post a serious reply.

Bitcoin works because we trust the math and the network, once we add a blacklist we now have to trust people again.  Angelamerkel, you keep saying we should not push our ideals onto you, however it is really you pushing your ideals onto us. We got involved with Bitcoin based on Satoshi's principles and the core feature is a network based on math and not having to trust people.

Your blacklist is actually against what Satoshi wanted and thus it is anti-bitcoin. I understand you want lots of power to block payments similar to paypal, so I suggest you create a clone of Bitcoin and set it up so that you can satisfy your ideals.

This is DPR's fault for giving over his coins or having a stupid weak password or allowing a keylogger onto his machine. Lets face the facts, DPR screwed up big time, he is so screwed. I wonder what his wallet password to $28 million was? Couldn't have been too difficult.

Also Bitcoins are not actually coins, did you know via taint analysis 98% of all Bitcoin users have a trace of the 10,000 bitcoin pizza transaction? Bitcoins are just numbers and if you blacklist a set amount of coins eventually they will spread all over the network (see via taint analysis how coins dilute into one another)

The blacklist would only work if 51% of the network agreed, and then we have paypalcoin.

Angelamerkel, we are forcing our views because the ideals you are against are the reason most of us got into Bitcoin, you don't want Bitcoin, you want paypalcoin.

Grab the Bitcoin source, add the blacklist system and announce it over in the alt-coin section. Cheers.

[drawingthesun]

Even though this isn't the right approach, something should be done, they shouldn't have those coins.

And why should we do anything? DPR either gave them up to law enforcement for a "deal" or he allowed the theft because of his crap security. My guess is he felt invincible and was super cocky, why does he need a strong password? He is the BOSS! No one is getting to the great world famous DPR!

I think he just screwed up completely, posting on Stackoverflow, probably some <12 letter password securing 144,000 Bitcoins.

[crumbs]

the FBI won them fair and square.

yeah, if by won you mean stolen and if by fair you mean using violence and coercion

You cannot call that stealing. If violence or threat of violence is used, it is a robbery. The FBI is a bunch of armed gangsters who robs their victims  

Nah, government thuggery is so yesteryear.  Today's enlightened FBI agents are well versed in social contract renegotiations.  They dropped in on DPR & offered him free room & board for life in a guarded secure community, in exchange for his coins.  Once they sweetened the deal by offering complimentary surprise buttsecs, Enlightened Self-Interest kicked in, and DPR handed over his private keys in exchange for the life of government-sponsored leisure and romance.
Who wouldn't?

[angelamerkel]

I hope all the people here advocating a blacklist are trolling. Its probably telling how ineffective a blacklist will be because none of the core developers have bothered to post a serious reply.

Bitcoin works because we trust the math and the network, once we add a blacklist we now have to trust people again.  Angelamerkel, you keep saying we should not push our ideals onto you, however it is really you pushing your ideals onto us. We got involved with Bitcoin based on Satoshi's principles and the core feature is a network based on math and not having to trust people.

Your blacklist is actually against what Satoshi wanted and thus it is anti-bitcoin. I understand you want lots of power to block payments similar to paypal, so I suggest you create a clone of Bitcoin and set it up so that you can satisfy your ideals.

This is DPR's fault for giving over his coins or having a stupid weak password or allowing a keylogger onto his machine. Lets face the facts, DPR screwed up big time, he is so screwed. I wonder what his wallet password to $28 million was? Couldn't have been too difficult.

Also Bitcoins are not actually coins, did you know via taint analysis 98% of all Bitcoin users have a trace of the 10,000 bitcoin pizza transaction? Bitcoins are just numbers and if you blacklist a set amount of coins eventually they will spread all over the network (see via taint analysis how coins dilute into one another)

The blacklist would only work if 51% of the network agreed, and then we have paypalcoin.

Angelamerkel, we are forcing our views because the ideals you are against are the reason most of us got into Bitcoin, you don't want Bitcoin, you want paypalcoin.

Grab the Bitcoin source, add the blacklist system and announce it over in the alt-coin section. Cheers.

1.  I don't WANT any of this.  I'm saying, Bitcoin might fail to become widely accepted without some kind of supervision. As I pointed out, there might be criminals who will use the power of Bitcoin to bring harm upon others.  Until now Bitcoin does just fine - and also the DPR case doesnt change that as you pointed out  and there is no reason to use any kind of black/whitelists so far. We will see how it develops. I'm just afraid criminals could do perfect crimes with Bitcoin.  I hope I'll be proven wrong...


2. Anyway a blacklist / whitelist can be quickly implemented when it is really needed  some point in the future (I hope never).  If the private Key & pw was extracted by torture for example  I would def. argue that this is the right time to start with a blacklisting...

[drawingthesun]

Angelamerkel, a system like Bitcoin will eventually be the defacto currency for most crime and tax evasion. This we cannot help, as the reason criminals will flock to Bitcoin is the same reason we all flocked to Bitcoin. Power over our own money.

Similar to how nuclear research opened up doors in medicine and energy, it also allowed for the bomb. Any sufficiently powerful technology will be used for bad and good. If you want a Bitcoin that is only suited to the good, allowed activities then I am afraid Bitcoin is not for you. Satoshi gave us power, and power will be missused.

Eventually a GovCoin will emerge that satisfies the good guys ideals, and maybe that will be the right coin for you?

If Bitcoin takes off, tax, crime, freedom from the Government nanny managing your money, these things are going to be huge. Bitcoin cannot be so powerful without enabling all peoples, good and bad.

Bitcoin will eventually be used for terrorism, for tax evasion, money laundering. Eventually people will be tortured for their passwords, however Bitcoin will also be used for good, for sending money to friends and family, for conducting business.

Do I want criminals using Bitcoin? No, but its not my place to say they can't use Bitcoin. Thats what people mean when they say Bitcoin is neutral, it's power is derived from the fact all people can use it.

If you limit this power of freedom and try to turn Bitcoin into PaypalCoin, another coin will emerge in the power vaccum and your investment will hit zero.

If Bitcoin has a use for all people, good or bad, it will eventually come to change the world. For better or worse.

[solex]

Output scripts are contracts. The contracts precisely specify what conditions are both necessary and sufficient for an output to be spent.

If the Bitcoin network ever stops honouring these contracts, then the currency and the network have a value of zero.

Correct. This idea of blacklisting bitcoin addresses is the most stupid idea ever, including even the stupidest ideas in the stupid film Dumb and Dumber.

The $2,200 million valuation of Bitcoin would be flushed down the toilet if the stupid idea of blacklisting ever got any traction.