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Author Topic: Bye bye bitcoin  (Read 8797 times)
Mike Christ
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October 11, 2013, 06:27:21 PM
 #41

So fiat money has some moral basis.


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interlagos
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October 11, 2013, 06:30:18 PM
 #42

As Trace Mayer once said in an interview:
"You don't have to adapt, you can always go extinct"

Buy buy wingding Smiley
opusdigitus
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October 11, 2013, 06:47:40 PM
 #43

My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value. It has made a few people rich, but most people shall loose. A currency? It is only speculation and nothing more. Bitcoin has not and will not become a real medium for exchange. What remains for bitcoin now is the large holders to sell out their coins, but in a tempo that does not crash the 'market'. It will be interesting to see how bitcoin's decline plays out. Good luck, either buying or selling, but if you do the former, you need it most.

Boy will you be kicking yourself if it goes up to thousands of dollars a coin in your lifetime.  You really should have kept at least one for the "just in case" factor.
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October 11, 2013, 06:50:55 PM
 #44

Thanks for nice replies! A few facts:
Good some of you're happy to have bought my coins cheap. They were cheaper when i got them Smiley
And yes, I did have a lot of coins. Not like Gavin or Satoshi - no no. But still.
And yes, I did make a profit, maybe some 20%. I certainly lost some money due to MtGox withdrawal fuzz and arbitrage.
I do feel happy.


To get some more discussion into the thread:
Why did you have Bitcoins then? What changed your mind?

Personally I feel more like dollar and euro in their current form are doomed to fail.
Bitcoin is still very risky though, but I wouldn't sell all of them ^^

Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.



I don't know where to start tearing that last bit apart.   Since both currencies have zero intrinsic value, your argument seems to base itself the way people use one currency as opposed to the other.  This is like saying a kitchen knife is more immoral than a sword because it is used in more stabbings. Your notions are obviously misdirected.  Bitcoins are a medium of exchange, and as a decentralized medium of exchange it provides a much more fair system than any system controlled by one particular entity.  Currencies controlled by any one entity are subject to corruption and regulations that may favor one group over the next.  It should be clear that a decentralized currency is intrinsically more "fair" than a centralized one.  It goes hand in hand that a system that is more fair would also be considered more moral.  On top of this, when you say "goverment issues new money" to pay for things...  I hope you understand this money comes from somewhere.  It is either created as debt (to be paid by the taxpayer) or it is simply printed in which case the relative value of all current money is slightly less and we all lose a small amount of purchasing power.  So is it your argument that forcefully taking money from one party and giving it to another is more moral than not doing so if it is for something like schools?  Why don't we just create a law mandating that 20% of all income should go to charity, that would be even more "moral" according to your argument.   I'd be happy to continue ripping this argument apart but I've already wasted enough time.
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October 13, 2013, 02:38:47 PM
 #45

My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value. It has made a few people rich, but most people shall loose. A currency? It is only speculation and nothing more. Bitcoin has not and will not become a real medium for exchange. What remains for bitcoin now is the large holders to sell out their coins, but in a tempo that does not crash the 'market'. It will be interesting to see how bitcoin's decline plays out. Good luck, either buying or selling, but if you do the former, you need it most.

Good bye and don't come back crying when it hit $1000.

murraypaul
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October 13, 2013, 02:51:41 PM
 #46

Your govt doesn't issue money.  Your central bank does which is a private cartel of banks who has been given a monopoly on issuing currency.  When they issue currency they and only they benefit.  They benefit because more issuance means more inflation but inflation is a lagging effect and so the money they issue today won't have its purchasing power degraded until after they spend it.  You on the other hand well you get your money slowly after it has filtered through many layers from the banks on downward so the prices have already adjusted.  Ever notice that you get a 3% raise (not a promotion but an annual raise) but by the time you get the raise prices have already increase 3% (or more).   You never catch up.


Governments build schools and roads and healthcare (and bombs, and engage in terrorism, and build police states, and incarecerate people) using TAX REVENUE which has absolutely nothing to do with the issuance of currency.  There are many countries which don't issue their own currency.  Belize for example defacto uses the US dollar as their national currency.  How does belize build roads?  Simple people pay taxes (often in US dollars) and the government spends those to build roads.

If governments did all those things only with tax revenue, they wouldn't have debts, would they?
When the government needs more money, it issues more bonds (debt). At the moment, there isn't a large enough existing open market to buy all the debt that needs to be issued, so it is sold directly to the central bank, which issues more currency to match the value of the bonds it has bought.
And my central bank, the Bank of England, is not a cartel of private banks.

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TERA
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October 14, 2013, 06:57:33 AM
 #47

All it takes is to stash away 1 bitcoin to be a millionaire just in case of the "btc becomes $1,000,000" scenario. Meanwhile you can keep the other 99% or whatever of your purchasing power. I really don't get why people have to "sell every coin".
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October 14, 2013, 07:02:11 AM
 #48

All it takes is to stash away 1 bitcoin to be a millionaire just in case of the "btc becomes $1,000,000" scenario. Meanwhile you can keep the other 99% or whatever of your purchasing power. I really don't get why people have to "sell every coin".

i have few accounts that i don't look into and they all have around 0.5btc. too  low to bother now but it will be fun to see them in few years from now Smiley

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October 14, 2013, 07:39:20 AM
 #49

My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value.
Bye bye Cheesy More bitcoins to the people that see the value Smiley We'll welcome you back in 5 years.

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Firing it up


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October 14, 2013, 08:12:20 AM
 #50

Well, there are two sides. People now bet on 17 October 2013 will be in another side. If dollars fails, then gold, silver, crude oil, bitcoin will raise real quick.

I have seen the raising. If fails on 17 October 2013, then more people may like to buy gold, crude oil to save themselves.

Additionally, bitcoin never be able for money laundering as it can be unveiled when there is something broken.
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October 14, 2013, 09:28:00 AM
 #51

This is good old Darwinian evolution at work. Move along.

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October 14, 2013, 09:50:25 AM
 #52

Every time someone makes a dramatic thread about this feeling the urge to make it public that bitcoin has no value and they're leaving the scene we get a nice rally. Gotta love bitcoin karma at work. Cheesy

Bitcoin = Gold on steroids
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October 14, 2013, 09:55:03 AM
 #53

bye.
Your attitude is still better than the 10kBTC Pizza buyer.

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October 14, 2013, 10:18:10 AM
 #54

Gee, all i can say is this:
 - Banks were created because we needed to trust somebody to manage our Value. Now, they're not necessary, about to be replaced with peer to peer money.

They - the banks - are going, like cassettes, books and copyright.

We will still have banks to lend us money and give us mortgages and credit, process payments, pay interest, but for sure, they won't get their snouts into our day to day funds like they do today.


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Zakryze
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October 14, 2013, 10:27:49 AM
 #55

nuh uh! another one bites the dust. Goodbye to the threadstarter.
Can you tell why exactly you are so frustrated?
I felt bad years ago when some traders scammed me because of irreversible transactions but since i just adjusted my behaviour to what happened to me I'm still fine with bitcoin. You can't spend bitcoins you don't have unless you borrow them which is imo one of its biggest features. have faith in mother coin its > fiat already now!

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David Rabahy
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October 14, 2013, 01:15:45 PM
 #56

Say a loaf of bread cost $1 USD today (you might find it on sale); suppose further that you could find a baker or grocer willing to accept Bitcoin as payment for a loaf of bread and even agreed to an exchange rate of $100 USD/1 BTC; the loaf would cost 0.01 BTC (or 10 mBTC if you prefer).

*If* someday in the future, the USD/BTC exchange rate reaches $1,000,000/1 BTC then how much will a loaf of bread cost?
Zakryze
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October 14, 2013, 01:20:19 PM
 #57

0.01 btc since you and the baker agreed on the 100$/btc exchange....

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October 14, 2013, 02:02:50 PM
 #58

0.01 btc since you and the baker agreed on the 100$/btc exchange....

and you seriously believe the baker will not be forced to update the agreement all the way to 1 million? goods are priced in fiat, and always will.btc price will always be converted to the "official price".

Unless you think the governments will switch to bitcoin as the official currency, and then the exchange rate would be pointless.
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October 14, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
 #59

What exchange rate is the baker likely to accept in the future?

Or rather, how much is the baker likely to charge for the loaf?

Nominally the exchange rate has gone up by a factor of 10,000.  So one way simplistic way to look at is the loaf will cost $10,000 USD at that time and if the agreeable exchange rate at that time between our buyer and our baker is indeed $1,000,000 USD/1 BTC then the loaf will still be 0.01 mBTC.

If one had put $1 USD away for a future loaf purchase then they wouldn't even be able to afford hardly a crumb let alone a single slice.  If one had instead put 0.01 BTC away then they would still be able to afford a whole loaf.

But, will the exchange rate and the price of a loaf scale together?  In a world of hyper-inflation of a fiat, are financial systems so disrupted that product pricing becomes unstable?

Buying a loaf of bread with gold is difficult; it's hard to measure such a small amount of gold.  I know, I know, it is trivial to divide Bitcoin into small portions.  But, will our baker be content to accept Bitcoin when his world is in turmoil?  Will his suppliers, the farmer, the miller, etc., be accepting Bitcoin?  If not then by the time our baker can exchange to fiat to purchase the next round of flour, eggs and milk, etc., he might not be able to afford them.

It is the rate of change that cripples us.  Relatively smooth and steady change over long enough periods of time are tolerable.

Everyone with Bitcoin boners watching hour-by-hour for an explosion to huge exchange rates; slow down, relax, enjoy the ride.  Divert a little of the energy/intensity into promoting instead.
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October 14, 2013, 03:26:28 PM
 #60

nuh uh! another one bites the dust. Goodbye to the threadstarter.
Can you tell why exactly you are so frustrated?
I felt bad years ago when some traders scammed me because of irreversible transactions but since i just adjusted my behaviour to what happened to me I'm still fine with bitcoin. You can't spend bitcoins you don't have unless you borrow them which is imo one of its biggest features. have faith in mother coin its > fiat already now!
What is it exactly that frustrate me? Well, I would more than most people like to see the appearance of a decentralized cryptocoin becoming a real competitor to fiat money. But bitcoins hyperdeflationary nature do not allow it to happen. The problem is that bitcoin has a centralized ownership. You can pick 10-20 persons out there that is holding abt 50% of all the bitcoins that exist. And even if you count the 1000 persons that holds 80%, the problem is the same. What if Satoshi had premined every 21 million coin, and asked people to buy the coins from him? On the economic scale, that would not have been very different, except the flaw would be more evident.
(and know that I do not hate speculators or lottery winners - I just believe a true cryptocoin must be founded in a different domain)


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