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Author Topic: Bye bye bitcoin  (Read 8891 times)
Birdy
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October 11, 2013, 04:18:37 PM
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Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.

Hm, I don't see why you couldn't buy schools and so on with a currency like Bitcoins.
E.g. a state could decide to back up their money with Bitcoins.
It's just that Bitcoin is too small for things like that yet, unlike state currencies it wasn't born with millions of users.
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RodeoX
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The revolution will be monetized!


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October 11, 2013, 04:22:25 PM
 #22

sorry to hear that it did not work out for you. I just bought some coins; maybe yours? I expect to make thousands of dollars from each one. But there is no guarantee until you sell your coins, so you may have made a better decision. How much did you make per coin?

P.S. remember that if you are in the U.S. you will need to set aside 20% of your profits for tax time.

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Free bitcoin in ICELAND - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610684
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October 11, 2013, 04:27:17 PM
 #23

P.S. remember that if you are in the U.S. you will need to set aside 20% of your profits for tax time.

Important to note that 20% is only if it's long-term capital gains, and only if you're in the highest tax bracket for LTCG.

If you experienced long-term capital gains, you'd be taxed at either 0%, 15%, or 20% depending on your income (assuming the IRS would categorize bitcoin appreciation as capital gains once you cash out). If you had held for less than a year and a day, you'd be paying at whatever your normal income tax rate is (up to 39.6% plus if you earn enough, an extra 3.8% in unearned income Medicare contribution).

It's important to keep track of your cost basis in bitcoin as well as carefully tracking when you buy and sell bitcoin so you know which ones you owe long-term capital gains on and which ones you owe short-term on.
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October 11, 2013, 04:35:03 PM
 #24

Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.

This is the stupidest argument ever against bitcoin!

Let it be known as Wingding's Moral Argument against Bitcoin.


Here: https://www.smore.com/feux-sean-s-outpost

Anyway, Internet protocols have nothing to do with morality...

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October 11, 2013, 04:37:33 PM
 #25

Thanks for nice replies! A few facts:
Good some of you're happy to have bought my coins cheap. They were cheaper when i got them Smiley
And yes, I did have a lot of coins. Not like Gavin or Satoshi - no no. But still.
And yes, I did make a profit, maybe some 20%. I certainly lost some money due to MtGox withdrawal fuzz and arbitrage.
I do feel happy.


To get some more discussion into the thread:
Why did you have Bitcoins then? What changed your mind?

Personally I feel more like dollar and euro in their current form are doomed to fail.
Bitcoin is still very risky though, but I wouldn't sell all of them ^^

Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.



Yes, most of the money is spent trying to help children, run schools and build roads.



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October 11, 2013, 04:40:45 PM
 #26

Personally I feel more like dollar and euro in their current form are doomed to fail.
Bitcoin is still very risky though, but I wouldn't sell all of them ^^

Neither the dollar nor the euro are going anywhere. They may/will fluctuate in value, but they're certainly not going anywhere. Notably unlike Bitcoin, they actually have something backing their value: Giant armies that will ensure that any land within their jurisdiction has its property taxes paid in fiat, and the ability to insist on paying all their government's expenses (which are huge, obviously) in fiat currency.

The U.S. debt has ballooned from about 8 to over 16 trillion dollars in only 6 years. You might want to view what just 1 trillion dollars looks like.

Giant armies are made up of ordinary people who may not always follow top down orders as we saw with Mubarak/Morsi in Egypt. If a giant army mandates Easter confetti have value will that confetti always have value? Also, there is no European army backing the euro, which instead is made up of several member states.
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October 11, 2013, 04:42:36 PM
 #27

My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value. It has made a few people rich, but most people shall loose. A currency? It is only speculation and nothing more. Bitcoin has not and will not become a real medium for exchange. What remains for bitcoin now is the large holders to sell out their coins, but in a tempo that does not crash the 'market'. It will be interesting to see how bitcoin's decline plays out. Good luck, either buying or selling, but if you do the former, you need it most.

You remind me of someone...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=27348.0

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
Ipsum
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October 11, 2013, 04:48:17 PM
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The U.S. debt has ballooned from about 8 to over 16 trillion dollars in only 6 years. You might want to view what just 1 trillion dollars looks like.

Which would cause the US dollar to fluctuate in value, not disappear in my lifetime.


Quote
Giant armies are made up of ordinary people who may not always follow top down orders as we saw with Mubarak/Morsi in Egypt. If a giant army mandates Easter confetti have value will that confetti always have value? Also, there is no European army backing the euro, which instead is made up of several member states.

Yeah, you're right about the Euro. That actually may fall apart, but will make no difference in the fiat vs. crypto currency debate - it will simply be replaced by fiat national currencies if it fell apart.

Comparing the US to Egypt kind of misses the vast differences between the two. I spent some time in Cairo right before the revolution started. There's no comparison there, beyond the facile.
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October 11, 2013, 04:53:53 PM
 #29

@OP


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October 11, 2013, 04:54:23 PM
 #30

Personally I feel more like dollar and euro in their current form are doomed to fail.
Bitcoin is still very risky though, but I wouldn't sell all of them ^^

Neither the dollar nor the euro are going anywhere. They may/will fluctuate in value, but they're certainly not going anywhere. Notably unlike Bitcoin, they actually have something backing their value: Giant armies that will ensure that any land within their jurisdiction has its property taxes paid in fiat, and the ability to insist on paying all their government's expenses (which are huge, obviously) in fiat currency.

Armies? Sooo 1940's.

Bitcoin user not affected.
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October 11, 2013, 05:09:57 PM
 #31

Comparing the US to Egypt kind of misses the vast differences between the two. I spent some time in Cairo right before the revolution started. There's no comparison there, beyond the facile.

I didn't compare the US to Egypt. I compared armies which are made up of people.
RodeoX
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The revolution will be monetized!


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October 11, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
 #32

P.S. remember that if you are in the U.S. you will need to set aside 20% of your profits for tax time.

Important to note that 20% is only if it's long-term capital gains, and only if you're in the highest tax bracket for LTCG.

If you experienced long-term capital gains, you'd be taxed at either 0%, 15%, or 20% depending on your income (assuming the IRS would categorize bitcoin appreciation as capital gains once you cash out). If you had held for less than a year and a day, you'd be paying at whatever your normal income tax rate is (up to 39.6% plus if you earn enough, an extra 3.8% in unearned income Medicare contribution).

It's important to keep track of your cost basis in bitcoin as well as carefully tracking when you buy and sell bitcoin so you know which ones you owe long-term capital gains on and which ones you owe short-term on.
Yes. this is a much better answer than mine.

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Free bitcoin in ICELAND - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610684
ElectricMucus
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October 11, 2013, 05:35:29 PM
 #33

Hey guys I just came up with this poem, and I think here is as good a place as any to post it.

First they troll you,
then they laugh at you,
then they send in the FEDs..
and then you go bankrupt.

have fun! Grin
cr1776
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October 11, 2013, 05:38:30 PM
 #34

Neither the dollar nor the euro are going anywhere.

I disagree, they are going down.

The dollar has lost a huge percentage of value over the last 42 years (let alone the last 100), and without better monetary policy that will continue for as long as the policies that cause it are in place.  Perhaps no sharp drop will occur, but both the dollar and euro will continue their slow erosion of value day-by-day, week-by-week, year-by-year.


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October 11, 2013, 05:43:32 PM
 #35

When the government "issues new money" they are taking money from you and everyone else who has assets in that country (or worldwide depending on the currency).  Inflation is a stealth tax on everyone and it hits the most needy the most because they may not have the education or ability to protect themselves from it.

Charity by its nature is voluntary.  There is nothing moral about me holding a gun to your head and saying "go feed the homeless".  That is immoral and it doesn't matter if I vote for someone to hold a gun to your head telling you to "go feed the homeless" or to a Dr, "go treat the poor." 


Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.
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October 11, 2013, 05:47:42 PM
 #36


Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.

What country is that?  Here in the US, the government does not issue money, the Federal Reserve does.  This money does not go to the government as spendable revenue, it goes to artificially prop up markets that can't stand on their own without subsidy.  This is done to ensure that the privatly held banks remain solvent in spite of their repeated bad bets.  Markets have become casinos and bankers have to do immoral things to keep up with everyone else.

I sure hope your country really is different, but maybe you can understand my doubt about your morality argument.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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DeathAndTaxes
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October 11, 2013, 05:57:50 PM
 #37

Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.

Oh that would be funny if it wasn't so naive.

Your govt doesn't issue money.  Your central bank does which is a private cartel of banks who has been given a monopoly on issuing currency.  When they issue currency they and only they benefit.  They benefit because more issuance means more inflation but inflation is a lagging effect and so the money they issue today won't have its purchasing power degraded until after they spend it.  You on the other hand well you get your money slowly after it has filtered through many layers from the banks on downward so the prices have already adjusted.  Ever notice that you get a 3% raise (not a promotion but an annual raise) but by the time you get the raise prices have already increase 3% (or more).   You never catch up.


Governments build schools and roads and healthcare (and bombs, and engage in terrorism, and build police states, and incarecerate people) using TAX REVENUE which has absolutely nothing to do with the issuance of currency.  There are many countries which don't issue their own currency.  Belize for example defacto uses the US dollar as their national currency.  How does belize build roads?  Simple people pay taxes (often in US dollars) and the government spends those to build roads.

Governments have no money.  Governments don't build roads.  Governments collect wealth (through the us of force) from citizens in the form of taxes and pay for goods and services just like you or I do ... by spending money.

Citizen (wealth) ----> Government ----->  Road Builder

The only difference between you hiring someone to pave your driveway and the government hiring someone to pave a highway is the first involves voluntary free exchange (you give some money and the paver gives you some driveway) and the later involves the use of force (monopoly on violence).


As for no longer owning Bitcoins, well it sounds like it is a source of stress for you and life is too short for all that.  You may have made the right decision for you.   However even if you never use anything other than "national" currency you might want to do some research on what money is and how it doesn't work they way you think it does.
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October 11, 2013, 06:12:50 PM
 #38



Good question! My main issue with bitcoin is the immorality of it. Explained simply: When my government issues new money, those money are used to run schools, build roads, provide health care , etc. So fiat money has some moral basis. When you buy bitcoins, some people get rich from that, nothing else.



I guess you mean chinese government? In US, all those money went into banks (They were not used, they were loaned out, notice the difference here). They were loaned out to run schools, build roads, provide health care, but government must payback much more than they borrowed until they hit the debt ceiling

And bitcoin could also be used to build shools, roads, and provide health care, if the construction company and hospital accept bitcoin payment and 1 bitcoin worth millions of dollars

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October 11, 2013, 06:18:23 PM
 #39

Personally I feel more like dollar and euro in their current form are doomed to fail.
Bitcoin is still very risky though, but I wouldn't sell all of them ^^

Neither the dollar nor the euro are going anywhere. They may/will fluctuate in value, but they're certainly not going anywhere. Notably unlike Bitcoin, they actually have something backing their value: Giant armies that will ensure that any land within their jurisdiction has its property taxes paid in fiat, and the ability to insist on paying all their government's expenses (which are huge, obviously) in fiat currency.

All fiat monies eventually fail. All of them. It's human nature... eventually TPTB succumb to the temptation to endlessly produce more money, and that's a situation that is unsustainable in the long-term. Nations can force people to use their currency... they can't force people to actually value it. Now, whether they'll fail tomorrow, or fail in 100 years is another issue.

But just like gold, Bitcoin's backing is both its monetary usefulness and its inherent utility. It allows me to send the world's first ever decentralized, pseudonymous virtual asset to anyone, anywhere, in seconds; that alone has enough power to make national governments quake and (dumbly) attack it. Yet even if it's monetary usefulness somehow disappeared, the technology itself still has numerous other uses (demonstrated in part by the proposals based on it, including Namecoin, which actually exists and works.)

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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October 11, 2013, 06:23:53 PM
 #40

In the beginning, the US successfully resisted central banks, and even abolished some of the first attempts that were started.  Hopefully, we can once again rid ourselves of them and go back to a sound money standard.  However, the Federal Reserve system has stood for quite some time. Very few people alive were born before the FED, and most don't know it is a private bank.  The name was key in associating it with government.  Even fewer understand the axioms of sound money, and savings has been eroded by debt and inflation.

We can be thankful for inflation also helping those with debt repay it.... So long as wages rise with inflation and interest rates are manageable.  Wages hasn't been a pretty picture, and rates have been rising, even with $85 billion a month being created to prop up mortgage and bond markets.  Tapering needs to happen, but will they be able to let up on the gas pedal without rates rocketing?

If rates rise, the US government's budget problems get worse quickly as interest payments swollow more of the pie.  As taxes are levied, or federal spending cut, dollars will be less plentiful and the USD will gain in value.  If rates get too high and a serious deflationary wave occurs, cash will be king and defaults will be the order of the day as interest on public and private debt sucks up all the "excess liquidity" they have flooded into the system.

Of course, they could always push the pedal harder, and sentiment could be ripe for such a move.  Many are expecting tapering.  It would continue to keep rates low, but would keep the bad bets from being cleared from the system.

The drag of the debt is too much, and only defaulting or inflating away much of the debt can get the economy moving forward.  We'll likely cycle through both as the economy inhales and exhales.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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