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Author Topic: Tradehill - lawsuit waiting to happen  (Read 6805 times)
OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 04:27:40 AM
 #1

Government Registration record for Tradehill:
http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1525974&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

Tradehill started doing business before they registered as a legal company based on their filing date!!!!  Filing date is 6/16/2011.

   As a paralegal I can tell you this may fly in Chile but when they get sued here in the states, they will be dead.


I can't believe how fragile bitcoin companies are.



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CryptoCommodity
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July 23, 2011, 04:50:27 AM
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Wow a paralegal....

What are they going to be sued for?  You do realize that foreign corporations can do business in the US.

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July 23, 2011, 04:55:10 AM
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Government Registration record for Tradehill:
http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1525974&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

Tradehill started doing business before they registered as a legal company based on their filing date!!!!  Filing date is 6/16/2011.

   As a paralegal I can tell you this may fly in Chile but when they get sued here in the states, they will be dead.


I can't believe how fragile bitcoin companies are.







wow, you so smart, man that just blows their whole ship right out of the water.  Have you bothered to check any dates on their articles of incorporations, or approriates ones that woulda been filed to show start date of business? probably not. Anyhows, learn to paralegal better.....

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 04:57:33 AM
 #4

Wow a paralegal....

What are they going to be sued for?  You do realize that foreign corporations can do business in the US.



Foreign corporations have to register too.

And using personal bank accounts like this: does this look multinational to you, or simply careless?
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=6df17df21dff77061dafa0aa2800c3df&topic=13650.msg188417#msg188417

trentzb
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July 23, 2011, 05:07:27 AM
 #5

thanks for that. Smiley
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July 23, 2011, 05:29:56 AM
 #6

You do not need to register as a corporate entity in order to conduct business in the US. TH would simple be classified as a sole-proprietor or basic partnership without filing for LLC or C status.

Not a big deal at all.
Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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July 23, 2011, 05:35:13 AM
 #7

OrangeSun,

Using a personal bank account isn't illegal. When TradeHill proved to be a viable business I opened a business bank account.


I started TradeHill as a sole proprietorship, I didn't register "TradeHill" until 8 days after we opened. I've done a little research and you are correct, I violated this law: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/648.990
This is obviously viewable by the public and I'm not hiding it.

Here are the penalties:

648.990¹
Penalties
(1) Violation of any of the provisions of this chapter is punishable by a civil penalty not exceeding $100.

I accept full responsibility.  I have no problem paying that fine in it's entirety.

Jered


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July 23, 2011, 05:36:59 AM
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You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...

imperi
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July 23, 2011, 05:40:01 AM
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OP, you sound like quite the legal expert. How much do you charge, $12 per hour?
OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 05:40:12 AM
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OrangeSun,

Using a personal bank account isn't illegal. When TradeHill proved to be a viable business I opened a business bank account.


I started TradeHill as a sole proprietorship, I didn't register "TradeHill" until 8 days after we opened. I've done a little research and you are correct, I violated this law: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/648.990
This is obviously viewable by the public and I'm not hiding it.

Here are the penalties:

648.990¹
Penalties
(1) Violation of any of the provisions of this chapter is punishable by a civil penalty not exceeding $100.

I accept full responsibility.  I have no problem paying that fine in it's entirety.

Jered




Jered - thanks for answering this thread.  Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem.  Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.
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July 23, 2011, 05:41:06 AM
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Not sure who would sue Tradehill, or for what, but it does not concern me all that much...most of the funds I sent them underwent a transformation and bounced right back to my wallet.dat.

If a lawsuit resulted in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, that would suck but that family of problems was a calculated risk I took before sending them a dime.

If a lawsuit did not result in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, it is unlikely that the Tradehill guys would see their problems getting any better by absconding with what funds of mine they do control.

My general feeling vis-a-vis the fledgling businesses being built around Bitcoin is that they seem to be being started and run by pretty straight-up folks based on Wagner's show, their contributions to the forum, etc.  I've no doubt that they are generally 'fragile', but even if that is the case it does not concern me a whole lot.  I feel I have vastly more control of my assets when doing business with Bitcoin than with most other instruments these days.

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July 23, 2011, 05:42:14 AM
 #12

I would much rather deal with honest businesspeople than people who hide behind the law.

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July 23, 2011, 05:45:45 AM
 #13

I think paralegals should get back to bate-stamping, processing documents from discovery and all that wonderful stuff their bosses make them do over the weekend.

Unless you've passed the bar exam, don't come here with your sensationalist legal tripe.

Thanks.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 05:47:39 AM
 #14

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.





Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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July 23, 2011, 05:50:38 AM
 #15



Jered - thanks for answering this thread.  Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem.  Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

I'm a US citizen.  I own both companies. The Chilean company provides support to the US company.
They both pay taxes.

I've explained it well enough.

Jered


Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering
Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money.

That has nothing to do with moving it internationally.


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OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 05:52:12 AM
 #16

You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...


I know you can do a business without registering as long as you pay taxes on profit.

But we are talking Bitcoins here.  A personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.


PS:  Don't use troll label so liberally.
tvbcof
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July 23, 2011, 05:52:44 AM
 #17

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

A question which strikes me as at least equally valid:

How is this money laundering?

(This is actually a serious question, BTW.)

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.







Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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July 23, 2011, 06:04:40 AM
 #18

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  


Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

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OrangeSun
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July 23, 2011, 06:09:22 AM
 #19

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  


Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam



Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".


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July 23, 2011, 06:12:57 AM
 #20

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

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