Tradehill - lawsuit waiting to happen

[OrangeSun]

Government Registration record for Tradehill:
http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1525974&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

Tradehill started doing business before they registered as a legal company based on their filing date!!!!  Filing date is 6/16/2011.

   As a paralegal I can tell you this may fly in Chile but when they get sued here in the states, they will be dead.


I can't believe how fragile bitcoin companies are.

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[CryptoCommodity]

Wow a paralegal....

What are they going to be sued for?  You do realize that foreign corporations can do business in the US.

[sadpandatech]

Government Registration record for Tradehill:
http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1525974&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

Tradehill started doing business before they registered as a legal company based on their filing date!!!!  Filing date is 6/16/2011.

   As a paralegal I can tell you this may fly in Chile but when they get sued here in the states, they will be dead.


I can't believe how fragile bitcoin companies are.

wow, you so smart, man that just blows their whole ship right out of the water.  Have you bothered to check any dates on their articles of incorporations, or approriates ones that woulda been filed to show start date of business? probably not. Anyhows, learn to paralegal better.....

[OrangeSun]

Wow a paralegal....

What are they going to be sued for?  You do realize that foreign corporations can do business in the US.

Foreign corporations have to register too.

And using personal bank accounts like this: does this look multinational to you, or simply careless?
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=6df17df21dff77061dafa0aa2800c3df&topic=13650.msg188417#msg188417

[trentzb]

thanks for that.

[evoorhees]

You do not need to register as a corporate entity in order to conduct business in the US. TH would simple be classified as a sole-proprietor or basic partnership without filing for LLC or C status.

Not a big deal at all.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

OrangeSun,

Using a personal bank account isn't illegal. When TradeHill proved to be a viable business I opened a business bank account.


I started TradeHill as a sole proprietorship, I didn't register "TradeHill" until 8 days after we opened. I've done a little research and you are correct, I violated this law: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/648.990
This is obviously viewable by the public and I'm not hiding it.

Here are the penalties:

648.990¹
Penalties
(1) Violation of any of the provisions of this chapter is punishable by a civil penalty not exceeding $100.

I accept full responsibility.  I have no problem paying that fine in it's entirety.

Jered

[Chick]

You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...

[imperi]

OP, you sound like quite the legal expert. How much do you charge, $12 per hour?

[OrangeSun]

OrangeSun,

Using a personal bank account isn't illegal. When TradeHill proved to be a viable business I opened a business bank account.


I started TradeHill as a sole proprietorship, I didn't register "TradeHill" until 8 days after we opened. I've done a little research and you are correct, I violated this law: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/648.990
This is obviously viewable by the public and I'm not hiding it.

Here are the penalties:

648.990¹
Penalties
(1) Violation of any of the provisions of this chapter is punishable by a civil penalty not exceeding $100.

I accept full responsibility.  I have no problem paying that fine in it's entirety.

Jered

Jered - thanks for answering this thread.  Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem.  Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

[tvbcof]

Not sure who would sue Tradehill, or for what, but it does not concern me all that much...most of the funds I sent them underwent a transformation and bounced right back to my wallet.dat.

If a lawsuit resulted in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, that would suck but that family of problems was a calculated risk I took before sending them a dime.

If a lawsuit did not result in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, it is unlikely that the Tradehill guys would see their problems getting any better by absconding with what funds of mine they do control.

My general feeling vis-a-vis the fledgling businesses being built around Bitcoin is that they seem to be being started and run by pretty straight-up folks based on Wagner's show, their contributions to the forum, etc.  I've no doubt that they are generally 'fragile', but even if that is the case it does not concern me a whole lot.  I feel I have vastly more control of my assets when doing business with Bitcoin than with most other instruments these days.

[error]

I would much rather deal with honest businesspeople than people who hide behind the law.

[TraderTimm]

I think paralegals should get back to bate-stamping, processing documents from discovery and all that wonderful stuff their bosses make them do over the weekend.

Unless you've passed the bar exam, don't come here with your sensationalist legal tripe.

Thanks.

[OrangeSun]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Jered - thanks for answering this thread.  Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem.  Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

I'm a US citizen.  I own both companies. The Chilean company provides support to the US company.
They both pay taxes.

I've explained it well enough.

Jered


Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering
Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money.

That has nothing to do with moving it internationally.

[OrangeSun]

You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...

I know you can do a business without registering as long as you pay taxes on profit.

But we are talking Bitcoins here.  A personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.


PS:  Don't use troll label so liberally.

[tvbcof]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

A question which strikes me as at least equally valid:

How is this money laundering?

(This is actually a serious question, BTW.)

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

[OrangeSun]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

[error]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

[OrangeSun]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

[error]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

And why wouldn't it be?!

[OrangeSun]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

And why wouldn't it be?!

I guess I am still used to the old thinking that you have to be a bank to send money internationally, and register with ton of different agencies. 

[OrangeSun]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not!  You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details. 

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal?  Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

[error]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not!  You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details.  

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal?  Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

I'm not your attorney, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that your attorney will tell you not to answer that.

I can also guarantee that nobody, anywhere on this planet, can say truthfully that they didn't break a law today.

[tvbcof]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Seems like pretty weak sauce dude.

Where's anything about anything Illegal which seems, accd to the (admittedly non-authoritative) Wikipedia, to be the defining element of money laundering?

Insofar as 'bearer instruments', what's the distinction between the wire transfer or Dwolla, Bitcoin, or the Chilean peso withdrawals?

I imagine that most everyone agrees that if there 'illegally obtained money' being moved around, the crime should be investigated and it's my guess and expectation that Tradehill would cooperate fully (probably it is in their TOS...I've forgotten.)  I see nothing illegal about Tradehill's business, and the I know first hand that in the dealings I have had with them, there was nothing illegal on my end of things.

I would say you are shooting blanks so far.  Perhaps some high-powered para-legal could jump onto Wikipedia and straighten them out if they have got it wrong.

[OrangeSun]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Seems like pretty weak sauce dude.

Where's anything about anything Illegal which seems, accd to the (admittedly non-authoritative) Wikipedia, to be the defining element of money laundering?

Insofar as 'bearer instruments', what's the distinction between the wire transfer or Dwolla, Bitcoin, or the Chilean peso withdrawals?

I imagine that most everyone agrees that if there 'illegally obtained money' being moved around, the crime should be investigated and it's my guess and expectation that Tradehill would cooperate fully (probably it is in their TOS...I've forgotten.)  I see nothing illegal about Tradehill's business, and the I know first hand that in the dealings I have had with them, there was nothing illegal on my end of things.

I would say you are shooting blanks so far.  Perhaps some high-powered para-legal could jump onto Wikipedia and straighten them out if they have got it wrong.

Point isn't about my legal skills... point is that these guys are quoting wikipedia!  I was being sarcastic by quoting it back.


Anyways, we will never get the real answer till someone gets sued.  So locking this thread.

[Silverpike]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

Are you seriously dumb enough to argue that exchanging one currency for another currency through an intermediary is "money laundering"? 

What do you think Western Union does? 

Jesus, stay out of the legal profession for all our sakes.

[killer2021]

The guy is a troll. We've dealt with this before, don't feed 'em.

[imperi]

I wonder what his issue is, why he's pressing so hard about this.

[koin]

I wonder what his issue is, why he's pressing so hard about this.

fear.

when 90% of what you do can be performed at a fraction of the cost by someone half a world away once the regulatory protections are circumvented by bitcoin + encryption + anonymity (tor), you'ld start panicking too!

Bitcoin Lawyer Introduction Thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13882.0

[OrangeSun]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

[Clipse]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Please give me the number of the firm you paralegal for(assuming you are still employed) to report your total abusive approach to the law.

For a paralegal you dont seem to know how to do research re: 37k STOLEN by dwolla and picked up by tradehill auditing within 7days after it was stolen. That is pretty amazing auditing when you handle more than $1 a day of transaction(pretty sure you are in the $1 daily bread and butter basket)

[Bitcoin Swami]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Something makes me think there are a couple dwolla employees on posting on this forum.  They're pretty easy to pick out.

[bbit]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Something makes me think there are a couple dwolla employees on posting on this forum.  They're pretty easy to pick out.

+1 -  I think you are on to something  can you say damage control ?

[Meatpile]

Haha he is demanding free legal advice from a company that has had to deal with legal concerns about their business.

Well I am sure they had to pay a lawyer to figure some of this stuff out, but it sure doesn't mean they have to then publicly hand out said legal advice to anyone that asks.

[timmey]

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

You mean like
Deposit EUR in Finnland -> Western Union -> Withdraw USD in USA
or
Deposit USD in USA -> paypal -> Withdraw RMB in China
or
money bookers or Liberty Reverse or WebMoney or C-Gold or....?

[joulesbeef]

someone is trolling hard core.. especially with that ignorant tradehill/dwolla comment.

You legal skills are in question and are on topic, you are offering legal advice and legal interpretation. OF course your skills and experience matter. Are you daft?

Perhaps if you didnt act like you were an expert this would be trolling.

"i'm a paralegal and I have some questions, to me it looks like tradehill might have broken this law"

Not "OMG bitcoin is fucked, tradehill broke the law, the entire network is shaking and even if tradehill didnt break the law, I'm sure some lawyer can make it look shady as hell and I know all this cause I am an expert paralegal."

[Newton]

I can explain to you exactly why it isn't money laundering.

Money Laundering requires that that originating funds come from an illegal source. The laundering occurs when you exchang illegal gotten money for legal funds. What you described is nothing more than exchanging one currency for another.

Stick with para-legal, i.e, fetching the coffee, the pizza and word processing what the lawyers tell you to.

Weird, he sounds just like you.

[Tasty Champa]

As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

You are ridiculous, stop wasting everyones time   

[enmaku]

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Oh god, bitcoins are "bearer instruments" and can be used to launder money! OUTLAW THEM!
Oh god, money orders are "bearer instruments" and can be used to launder money! OUTLAW THEM!
Oh god, personal checks are "bearer instruments" and can be used to launder money! OUTLAW THEM!
Oh god, gold is a "bearer instrument" and can be used to launder money! OUTLAW IT!

Are you seriously trying to claim that because bitcoin could potentially be used to launder money that simply trading them at an exchange is (or should be) illegal? Good Lord, we'll have to outlaw everything! I could stab someone with my ink pen, better outlaw ink pens!

[netrin]

As your attorney I advise you..

[indio007]

I getting pretty sick of people that think men and women can only act with government approval. These are the same people that think you have no legal recourse unless their is a formal statute on the books.
Don't believe it. You don't need the nanny state. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the common law knows that it is a crock.

[d.james]

OP IS GOX'S INTERN.


/mystery solved

[Tasty Champa]

As your attorney I advise you..

...to take a hit out of the little brown bottle in my shaving kit.
You won't need much, just a tiny taste. xD