Signature Campaigns taxes

[pixie85]

Then how are you supposed to prove that your signature campaign earnings are of legal origin? Because if you can't prove it, it would mean that you can never cash out, otherwise you risk that they put you in jail, worst case scenario, which is insane since one earned the money legally.

And how can they prove that it's not legal? In court you're innocent until proven otherwise. You can't prove the origin of your money and they can't prove that those money come from an illegal source.
 

And how it isn't proof? You have all the forum posts pointing at the origin of the transaction being from the signature campaigns.

And what if they tell you that this "campaign" was only a fake cover to pay you for selling drugs or some other illegal activity? You got paid from an address that has no ID. It can belong to some forum vatar and that's where the trail ends. This forum member could be your pimp for all they care. You can't prove much but so can't they.

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[Bardman]

Do you know what bookkeeping and receipts are? You've obviously never ruin a business before. Do you think they just guess how much money they take in at the end of the year?  You keep a record of your in-goings and outgoings and then you pay taxes on the net profit. It's not exactly difficult. If a signature campaign pays you $100 in bitcoin then you have earned $100 in bitcoin. If they pay you 0.01159 then you've earned $100 in bitcoin. I'm really not sure how a homeless man finding a bike or the parents of a child earning some extra money has to do with anything but if you're earning an income doing a job whether you're getting paid cash in hand or in bitcoin or in melons then you're liable to declare income. Sure, they might not ever find out but they might not ever find out about all those houses a criminal has been breaking into or that child locked up in someone's basement but that doesn't make it right, but if they do eventually find out then you're going to have some explaining to do and your libertarian excuses won't get you anywhere but hefty fines and possible jail time (and when it's blatant that you've purposely avoided taxes -- which you've admitted -- the latter is more likely).
Also the money anyone earns in such a way will be largely useless for any substantial purchases if they ever wanted to make any. If you ever wanted to put a deposit down on a house or buy a car over a certain amount then you won't be able to without laundering the money so that's something people should take into consideration especially those doing signature campaigns as their full time job or even those earning a substantial amount because sooner or later you'll have to explain where the money came from and why you haven't been declaring it. If people are fine with that and think bitcoin is the perfect tool to get paid in whilst avoiding taxes and leaving a paper trail behind then they're free to do that, but all those people saying "my country doesn't tax bitcoin" or "I don't think you need to pay any taxes" probably aren't being as careful and people normally slip up somewhere. If you're using tor or a safe proxy and selling coins for cash on the street and keeping the money in a shoebox under your bed then yeah you might not ever be suspected of anything, but if you're selling coins using any sort of exchange or even selling for cash then putting the money straight into your bank or buying things from websites where you leave personal details then you might slip up along the way and you're not as safe as you might think. If that's a risk you're prepared to take then you do you.

You're getting all fired up with that jail and "being wrong", money laundering and other stuff.
To clarify:
1. I don't consider not sharing information about my private possession with anyone as wrong. That's my personal attitude and belief and I'm not going to change that.
2. Here in Europe, in most countries you are supposed to pay taxes from realized gains, so until you spend your coins you don't have to pay or report anything. By law you're supposed to pay when you make purchase or exchange for fiat, so I haven't reported anything. Even if this law changes at some point, I still won't do it.
3. There's no need to launder the money. If I ever want to get fiat (don't think I will anytime soon), I'll do it on a German exchange, where we don't have to pay any taxes, at least for now.

Was your ethics so influenced by the system that you feel the need to report your every move to the authorities? That you feel like you're doing something wrong when you don't tell them what you spent your money on? Soon the society will become so scared that there will be no need for surveillance and tracking. The good citizens will share all information of their free will and even feel good afterwards.

Well, in Spain you do have to pay taxes even if you never exchanged bitcoins for fiat. There is however a limit you have to reach before you have to declare anything, which is only 1k euros. He is scared because if you get caught you can be in serious trouble. If you deposit 5k euros in any bank here, they will ask you where they came from and if you can't prove how you obtained them, you will be charged with 160k euros fine and possible jail time as well.

Wow, that is true? it's insane then, a 160k fine for only 5k? This is why im saying, be sure of what you are doing everytime you put money in the bank, specially when it comes to bitcoin.

As far as the other guy, yes, anyone knows what receipts are, the problem is, bitcoin has no traditional receipts, you simply get paid. When you sign up with a signature campaign, you just get paid, there are no contracts, and no traditional receipts made between parties, there's only the transaction as proof that A went to B.

Now you must prove what A is (in this case, the signature campaign manager, paying you for the job) and B (the bitcoin address you control).

The question: How is this proven? what is enough and accepted proof? A screenshot of the signature campaign transaction to your account? you must also cryptographically sign your bitcoin address? What if you moved your coins from address B somewhere else and it's now empty? does this matter? etc etc. It's way more complex than traditional freelance gigs. Unless I have that clear im not selling anything, not going to risk them ruining my savings, it's all I have.

Well, that's the problem. I can't really find all the signatures I have been in even if I tried. Bitcoin itself also lacks regulations, the whole thing, as I said, it's a mess. I asked here to see if someone has ever paid taxes for signatures. It does seem that you can declare it as freelance here and they will not ask you much more unless we are talking about a huge amount of money. They are still relatively understanding when it comes to crypto.

[Bardman]

The real problem is, how the hell do you properly cash out your bitcoins if you want to buy a house with them? because there's no way you are going to avoid the government knowing if you want to buy a house with your signature campaign gains across the years. So far none has given a real answer to this.

There is no answer because legally that's impossible to accomplish. One could cash out his coins to fiat through an over-the-counter trade, but that again would raise suspicions about the main source of your capital. If you can't provide sufficient proof of capital source, and that's not possible without blowing your cover, then you simply don't stand a single chance. People think they can outsmart the government, which to a certain extent might be true, but not in this specific case. It could however be that you let your relatives set up a ghost business, book in your signature campaign income as revenue, pay your due taxes, and there you have 'clean' capital, but once again, it's not a legal way of accomplishing your goal, and requires you to follow a complicated alternative road. People should just accept that things some times don't work.

But (and once again) why should this be a problem, when:

1) The activity is perfectly legal (getting paid in bitcoins for posting in an internet forum is a legal activity as far as I know)
2) The funds can be proven to come from such legal activity (namely, by providing the required cryptographic proof that you own the addresses in which one got paid in)

Given 1 and 2 and after paying whatever taxes required, how it wouldn't be possible to have that money in your bank ready to buy some property with?

I refuse to think that we are criminals by posting in here and we can't never use that money to buy some real estate with in 10 years once 1 BTC is worth $1million. Are you going to simply sit your ass on several millions which you cannot use? pretty dumb. We need to get this sorted.

True, it is legal I just needed to know what exactly means, legally speaking, seems like freelance work. However I have provided several times addresses from exchanges but I guess I would still be able to prove I own them, proving I have an account there and that I got the bitcoins. It would still take an insane amount of time to do all of that.

[pereira4]

And how can they prove that it's not legal? In court you're innocent until proven otherwise. You can't prove the origin of your money and they can't prove that those money come from an illegal source.

You are the one that must prove the origin of the funds by default, not them. OP is from spain, so he would need to check how it works for his country, but i would say this is the case, that you must prove that the funds are from legal origin, otherwise (and even if they can't prove the origin is illegal) who knows what can happen with the fiat in your bank account.
 

And what if they tell you that this "campaign" was only a fake cover to pay you for selling drugs or some other illegal activity? You got paid from an address that has no ID. It can belong to some forum vatar and that's where the trail ends. This forum member could be your pimp for all they care. You can't prove much but so can't they.

Welll this is another story. Which is why im asking if someone reported signature campaign gains and what the veredict by the government was once the evidence was provided.

It is open for anyone to see that you got paid X amount in exchange of X service. You got X amount paid by doing the signature campaign task and that is demonstrable. Now, if yahoo, Lauda, atriz or whoever else was running the funds to pay people (which would be the most immediate link to your payment) is a "drug dealer" or something, it's not something I could know, but I understand what you are saying, if the government wants to screw you up, they can come up with some ways to do it.

I can only demonstrate that I got paid X amount for X activity (a legal one), and if they don't like that, then yes, I would be in trouble, and since I don't know what to expect, it's why I haven't sold anything and reported anything. I need someone else to do it first and see what happens. Im not going to be a guinea pig as mentioned before.

[cellard]

The real problem is, how the hell do you properly cash out your bitcoins if you want to buy a house with them? because there's no way you are going to avoid the government knowing if you want to buy a house with your signature campaign gains across the years. So far none has given a real answer to this.

There is no answer because legally that's impossible to accomplish. One could cash out his coins to fiat through an over-the-counter trade, but that again would raise suspicions about the main source of your capital. If you can't provide sufficient proof of capital source, and that's not possible without blowing your cover, then you simply don't stand a single chance. People think they can outsmart the government, which to a certain extent might be true, but not in this specific case. It could however be that you let your relatives set up a ghost business, book in your signature campaign income as revenue, pay your due taxes, and there you have 'clean' capital, but once again, it's not a legal way of accomplishing your goal, and requires you to follow a complicated alternative road. People should just accept that things some times don't work.

But (and once again) why should this be a problem, when:

1) The activity is perfectly legal (getting paid in bitcoins for posting in an internet forum is a legal activity as far as I know)
2) The funds can be proven to come from such legal activity (namely, by providing the required cryptographic proof that you own the addresses in which one got paid in)

Given 1 and 2 and after paying whatever taxes required, how it wouldn't be possible to have that money in your bank ready to buy some property with?

I refuse to think that we are criminals by posting in here and we can't never use that money to buy some real estate with in 10 years once 1 BTC is worth $1million. Are you going to simply sit your ass on several millions which you cannot use? pretty dumb. We need to get this sorted.

True, it is legal I just needed to know what exactly means, legally speaking, seems like freelance work. However I have provided several times addresses from exchanges but I guess I would still be able to prove I own them, proving I have an account there and that I got the bitcoins. It would still take an insane amount of time to do all of that.

You can't expect to cash out any relevant amounts without being able to prove where the money came from...

For trading, I know it's insane, but apparently you must provide your entire trading history, including altcoin to altcoin trades. So what I would do is to download your trading history from the exchange's site, typically a .csv file, and attach that and let them figure it out. The problem is, a bunch of people have lost their trading history, since a ton of exchanges are now dead... I would like to know if anyone has been through this problem, what did you do about it.

As far as signature campaign goes, it's what being said in here: We know how to prove it cryptographically, that the address belong to you, and we have the screenshots of this website showing the signature campaign (there would be a problem if you took the screenshot, then rates change and you don't save all the different rates in which you got paid at tho..), and generally it's a very grey area. We don't know if that will be enough to let them enjoy our money if we convert it into fiat, or they will steal all of it from us and put is jail or god knows what. So yeah... who's willing to go first?

[notthematrix]

Bounty reward is a totally new thiung, we will have to consider yeras before our request is examinated

[bambazamba]

Bounty reward is a totally new thiung, we will have to consider yeras before our request is examinated

But this is a mode of income and as a citizen one should also contribute to the country for its development. But yes bounty reward is something no one has hear till yet so it will be very difficult to explain the working of this system and telling them it is not illegal.

[Claudyah]

It all depends on the currency in which you keep your money. If you have transferred your bitcoin to Fiat then you have no chance. The entire amount is taxable. This is your income. But if you store this money in a bitcoin wallet, you have no need to worry. Prove how you got your income is not difficult. But I think it won't be necessary.

yes that's true, taxes are usually felt not when we get paid at the end of the campaign, but usually the taxes we get when we want to change them into our own currency and taxes are done by applications that provide such services

[izanagi narukami]

My government did not legalize bitcoin yet so I can use bitcoin without pay any tax.

Usually I earn btc and convert into local exchange , I just paid some fee from transaction so I do not pay any tax.
Other exchange may apply tax because they already legalize bitcoin

[cellard]

It all depends on the currency in which you keep your money. If you have transferred your bitcoin to Fiat then you have no chance. The entire amount is taxable. This is your income. But if you store this money in a bitcoin wallet, you have no need to worry. Prove how you got your income is not difficult. But I think it won't be necessary.

yes that's true, taxes are usually felt not when we get paid at the end of the campaign, but usually the taxes we get when we want to change them into our own currency and taxes are done by applications that provide such services

But it's different. Buying it in an exchange means you must pay taxes when you cash out: capital gains.

Now getting paid monthly or sometimes weekly, could be considered a job: income gains, which means not reporting them even if you cash out could put you in trouble. A lot of people (including me) didn't know that, so we never reported anything, and then there's also the grey are where nothing is defined. Nobody wants to be the first guy that reports years of signature campaign worth of bitcoins only to get told that you will lose your money in endless penalties due not having paid any taxes in the past, and who knows if they consider the whole thing illegal or of unknown origin, therefore you would lose potentially all of it... personally im going to wait until im 100% sure that I will be able to keep whatever amounts I cash out.

[Bardman]

The real problem is, how the hell do you properly cash out your bitcoins if you want to buy a house with them? because there's no way you are going to avoid the government knowing if you want to buy a house with your signature campaign gains across the years. So far none has given a real answer to this.

There is no answer because legally that's impossible to accomplish. One could cash out his coins to fiat through an over-the-counter trade, but that again would raise suspicions about the main source of your capital. If you can't provide sufficient proof of capital source, and that's not possible without blowing your cover, then you simply don't stand a single chance. People think they can outsmart the government, which to a certain extent might be true, but not in this specific case. It could however be that you let your relatives set up a ghost business, book in your signature campaign income as revenue, pay your due taxes, and there you have 'clean' capital, but once again, it's not a legal way of accomplishing your goal, and requires you to follow a complicated alternative road. People should just accept that things some times don't work.

But (and once again) why should this be a problem, when:

1) The activity is perfectly legal (getting paid in bitcoins for posting in an internet forum is a legal activity as far as I know)
2) The funds can be proven to come from such legal activity (namely, by providing the required cryptographic proof that you own the addresses in which one got paid in)

Given 1 and 2 and after paying whatever taxes required, how it wouldn't be possible to have that money in your bank ready to buy some property with?

I refuse to think that we are criminals by posting in here and we can't never use that money to buy some real estate with in 10 years once 1 BTC is worth $1million. Are you going to simply sit your ass on several millions which you cannot use? pretty dumb. We need to get this sorted.

True, it is legal I just needed to know what exactly means, legally speaking, seems like freelance work. However I have provided several times addresses from exchanges but I guess I would still be able to prove I own them, proving I have an account there and that I got the bitcoins. It would still take an insane amount of time to do all of that.

You can't expect to cash out any relevant amounts without being able to prove where the money came from...

For trading, I know it's insane, but apparently you must provide your entire trading history, including altcoin to altcoin trades. So what I would do is to download your trading history from the exchange's site, typically a .csv file, and attach that and let them figure it out. The problem is, a bunch of people have lost their trading history, since a ton of exchanges are now dead... I would like to know if anyone has been through this problem, what did you do about it.

As far as signature campaign goes, it's what being said in here: We know how to prove it cryptographically, that the address belong to you, and we have the screenshots of this website showing the signature campaign (there would be a problem if you took the screenshot, then rates change and you don't save all the different rates in which you got paid at tho..), and generally it's a very grey area. We don't know if that will be enough to let them enjoy our money if we convert it into fiat, or they will steal all of it from us and put is jail or god knows what. So yeah... who's willing to go first?

I'm currently talking to a lawyer and he tells me the government wont punish me, at least not for signature campaigns, only because they haven't actually made it clear on what to do with bitcoins, legally speaking. It seems that even if I'm not able to entirely prove where it came from, I will be fine.

[cellard]

The real problem is, how the hell do you properly cash out your bitcoins if you want to buy a house with them? because there's no way you are going to avoid the government knowing if you want to buy a house with your signature campaign gains across the years. So far none has given a real answer to this.

There is no answer because legally that's impossible to accomplish. One could cash out his coins to fiat through an over-the-counter trade, but that again would raise suspicions about the main source of your capital. If you can't provide sufficient proof of capital source, and that's not possible without blowing your cover, then you simply don't stand a single chance. People think they can outsmart the government, which to a certain extent might be true, but not in this specific case. It could however be that you let your relatives set up a ghost business, book in your signature campaign income as revenue, pay your due taxes, and there you have 'clean' capital, but once again, it's not a legal way of accomplishing your goal, and requires you to follow a complicated alternative road. People should just accept that things some times don't work.

But (and once again) why should this be a problem, when:

1) The activity is perfectly legal (getting paid in bitcoins for posting in an internet forum is a legal activity as far as I know)
2) The funds can be proven to come from such legal activity (namely, by providing the required cryptographic proof that you own the addresses in which one got paid in)

Given 1 and 2 and after paying whatever taxes required, how it wouldn't be possible to have that money in your bank ready to buy some property with?

I refuse to think that we are criminals by posting in here and we can't never use that money to buy some real estate with in 10 years once 1 BTC is worth $1million. Are you going to simply sit your ass on several millions which you cannot use? pretty dumb. We need to get this sorted.

True, it is legal I just needed to know what exactly means, legally speaking, seems like freelance work. However I have provided several times addresses from exchanges but I guess I would still be able to prove I own them, proving I have an account there and that I got the bitcoins. It would still take an insane amount of time to do all of that.

You can't expect to cash out any relevant amounts without being able to prove where the money came from...

For trading, I know it's insane, but apparently you must provide your entire trading history, including altcoin to altcoin trades. So what I would do is to download your trading history from the exchange's site, typically a .csv file, and attach that and let them figure it out. The problem is, a bunch of people have lost their trading history, since a ton of exchanges are now dead... I would like to know if anyone has been through this problem, what did you do about it.

As far as signature campaign goes, it's what being said in here: We know how to prove it cryptographically, that the address belong to you, and we have the screenshots of this website showing the signature campaign (there would be a problem if you took the screenshot, then rates change and you don't save all the different rates in which you got paid at tho..), and generally it's a very grey area. We don't know if that will be enough to let them enjoy our money if we convert it into fiat, or they will steal all of it from us and put is jail or god knows what. So yeah... who's willing to go first?

I'm currently talking to a lawyer and he tells me the government wont punish me, at least not for signature campaigns, only because they haven't actually made it clear on what to do with bitcoins, legally speaking. It seems that even if I'm not able to entirely prove where it came from, I will be fine.

Im not sure about that. Is the lawyer specialised in cryptocurrency or just a random one? What kind of information did the lawyer tell you to present when cashing out?

I assume that the lawyer didn't tell you that you can simply cash out your signature campaign gains into your bank account and nothing will happen. They will ask where the money came from, so what was his reply when asked about what to do when they ask about where the money came from?

[Bagaji]

Well all depends on the country or region you live as far as i know here in my country Bitcoin business activities including signature campaign earning are tax by the government agency in charge of tax because crypto currency is not legalise as currency or means of exchange for goods and services.

[boranes]

My government did not legalize bitcoin yet so I can use bitcoin without pay any tax.

Usually I earn btc and convert into local exchange , I just paid some fee from transaction so I do not pay any tax.
Other exchange may apply tax because they already legalize bitcoin

Your exchange can't tax you, however your government can.

It varies from country to country, but in my opinion if you have bought bitcoin and after that you have sold bitcoin you need to pay tax for capital gain.
If you have earned bitcoin in any other way(signature for example) than you have to pay different tax, like income or something.

Still, there are no specific regulations in most countries.

[Irvinn]

To say whether the amount you earn in your signature campaigns is taxable, you need to know exactly the tax laws of your country. In many countries, the minimum amounts that are subject to taxation are established. I do not think that you have earned so much on signature campaigns that it is subject to taxation. However, if this amount is higher than the minimum set, then such a profit may well be recognized as income in the crypto currency and subject to taxation.

[Bardman]

The real problem is, how the hell do you properly cash out your bitcoins if you want to buy a house with them? because there's no way you are going to avoid the government knowing if you want to buy a house with your signature campaign gains across the years. So far none has given a real answer to this.

There is no answer because legally that's impossible to accomplish. One could cash out his coins to fiat through an over-the-counter trade, but that again would raise suspicions about the main source of your capital. If you can't provide sufficient proof of capital source, and that's not possible without blowing your cover, then you simply don't stand a single chance. People think they can outsmart the government, which to a certain extent might be true, but not in this specific case. It could however be that you let your relatives set up a ghost business, book in your signature campaign income as revenue, pay your due taxes, and there you have 'clean' capital, but once again, it's not a legal way of accomplishing your goal, and requires you to follow a complicated alternative road. People should just accept that things some times don't work.

But (and once again) why should this be a problem, when:

1) The activity is perfectly legal (getting paid in bitcoins for posting in an internet forum is a legal activity as far as I know)
2) The funds can be proven to come from such legal activity (namely, by providing the required cryptographic proof that you own the addresses in which one got paid in)

Given 1 and 2 and after paying whatever taxes required, how it wouldn't be possible to have that money in your bank ready to buy some property with?

I refuse to think that we are criminals by posting in here and we can't never use that money to buy some real estate with in 10 years once 1 BTC is worth $1million. Are you going to simply sit your ass on several millions which you cannot use? pretty dumb. We need to get this sorted.

True, it is legal I just needed to know what exactly means, legally speaking, seems like freelance work. However I have provided several times addresses from exchanges but I guess I would still be able to prove I own them, proving I have an account there and that I got the bitcoins. It would still take an insane amount of time to do all of that.

You can't expect to cash out any relevant amounts without being able to prove where the money came from...

For trading, I know it's insane, but apparently you must provide your entire trading history, including altcoin to altcoin trades. So what I would do is to download your trading history from the exchange's site, typically a .csv file, and attach that and let them figure it out. The problem is, a bunch of people have lost their trading history, since a ton of exchanges are now dead... I would like to know if anyone has been through this problem, what did you do about it.

As far as signature campaign goes, it's what being said in here: We know how to prove it cryptographically, that the address belong to you, and we have the screenshots of this website showing the signature campaign (there would be a problem if you took the screenshot, then rates change and you don't save all the different rates in which you got paid at tho..), and generally it's a very grey area. We don't know if that will be enough to let them enjoy our money if we convert it into fiat, or they will steal all of it from us and put is jail or god knows what. So yeah... who's willing to go first?

I'm currently talking to a lawyer and he tells me the government wont punish me, at least not for signature campaigns, only because they haven't actually made it clear on what to do with bitcoins, legally speaking. It seems that even if I'm not able to entirely prove where it came from, I will be fine.

Im not sure about that. Is the lawyer specialised in cryptocurrency or just a random one? What kind of information did the lawyer tell you to present when cashing out?

I assume that the lawyer didn't tell you that you can simply cash out your signature campaign gains into your bank account and nothing will happen. They will ask where the money came from, so what was his reply when asked about what to do when they ask about where the money came from?

No, he told me they wont punish me when I declare where it came from, he said they wont ask too many questions as long as my intention is to declare and pay anything I have to.

[marielbeckham]

Usually, everything depends on the country you live in. It's necessary to learn about all the rules, still, the income is not so large to worry about taxes if any will be imposed somewhere.

[anavir]

It all depends on the currency in which you keep your money. If you have transferred your bitcoin to Fiat then you have no chance. The entire amount is taxable. This is your income. But if you store this money in a bitcoin wallet, you have no need to worry. Prove how you got your income is not difficult. But I think it won't be necessary.

i agree with what you have said. bitcoin is decentralized so it means that we are not oblidge to pay taxes from earning it. But once it was converted it into fiat then there goes the taxes. Anyway the rewards that you got from signature campaign as the other said in this thread is just a little amount when converted into fiat so i don't think it would be necessary to declare your earning from signture campaign. This is just on my own opinion and i am only basing with the country i live.

[onrise]

My government did not legalize bitcoin yet so I can use bitcoin without pay any tax.

Usually I earn btc and convert into local exchange , I just paid some fee from transaction so I do not pay any tax.
Other exchange may apply tax because they already legalize bitcoin

Our country has also not legalize it yet but they have laid the rules and regulations that earnings coming out from crypto currencies fall under a bracket if it is a short term profit 20% else if it is a long term means holding more than 3 yearss than 10% on profit.

[Marcsymon]

To say whether the amount you earn in your signature campaigns is taxable, you need to know exactly the tax laws of your country. In many countries, the minimum amounts that are subject to taxation are established. I do not think that you have earned so much on signature campaigns that it is subject to taxation. However, if this amount is higher than the minimum set, then such a profit may well be recognized as income in the crypto currency and subject to taxation.

It is seems similar to our country. The government established minimum amount subjected to taxation for the workers income that is so called "income tax". But in bitcoin signature campaign this is not legalize yet and taxation are no longer established. It is also unfair to bitcoin users in our country to pay taxes to the government because this jobs is hidden and income also are hidden and not qualified for tax payments at all.