Distribution of bitcoin wealth by owner

[Vlad2Vlad]

Translation:  Vlad was right and Bitcoin is very poorly distributed with the large majority of wealth in the hands of a few, thus making Bitcoin very much centralized and eerily similar to a Fiat 2.0.


That's just my guess of course and the true, freedom loving libertarians on this thread will surely delete this message.

Enjoy.

A guess how many people have more than 100 BTC?

Not sure, I'd guess a few thousand.  Max, 5,000 people.  But as a %, the handful of people at the top who easily own at least 25%, has gone up exponentially given the fraction of supposed accounts on Gox.

Look, I don't have a personal problem with it, you would expect that to be the case given bitcoin was so easy to mine for some 2 years but not many knew or believed in it.  That very nature of the matter created the current distribution.  With time it's possible that will change but right now the super rich are accumulating so that will further centralize the power of bitcoin in the hands of a few.

I'm not sure it can ever be different [in the end] with any popular currency.

[BitChick]

Translation:  Vlad was right and Bitcoin is very poorly distributed with the large majority of wealth in the hands of a few, thus making Bitcoin very much centralized and eerily similar to a Fiat 2.0.


That's just my guess of course and the true, freedom loving libertarians on this thread will surely delete this message.

Enjoy.

A guess how many people have more than 100 BTC?

Not sure, I'd guess a few thousand.  Max, 5,000 people.  But as a %, the handful of people at the top who easily own at least 25%, has gone up exponentially given the fraction of supposed accounts on Gox.

Look, I don't have a personal problem with it, you would expect that to be the case given bitcoin was so easy to mine for some 2 years but not many knew or believed in it.  That very nature of the matter created the current distribution.  With time it's possible that will change but right now the super rich are accumulating so that will further centralize the power of bitcoin in the hands of a few.

I'm not sure it can ever be different [in the end] with any popular currency.

I would think that the top % should sell some of their holdings each time we reach an ATH which changes the distribution of course.

If those coins were still on Gox then they won't have as many now either will they?  I guess Gox might return some of them.

[Vlad2Vlad]

You can't force people to sell their wealth to benefit the masses.

That's communism.

The "lost" Bitcoins on Gox were not lost but bought up by a few banks like JP Morgan and are now being refunded by the Koch brothers.

See my prediction of all this weeks before it happened.  I said all those coins would be refunded before anyone uttered the any words of finding the coins.

So once again, Bitcoin became even more centralized where a massive 850,000 Bitcoins were taken via some clever scheme by probably 3-5 total institutions.

And with the current high price of BTC it's hard to get the masses to buy larger amounts to even out the distribution.

[SlipperySlope]

Translation:  Vlad was right and Bitcoin is very poorly distributed with the large majority of wealth in the hands of a few, thus making Bitcoin very much centralized and eerily similar to a Fiat 2.0.


That's just my guess of course and the true, freedom loving libertarians on this thread will surely delete this message.

Enjoy.

A guess how many people have more than 100 BTC?

Not sure, I'd guess a few thousand.  Max, 5,000 people.  But as a %, the handful of people at the top who easily own at least 25%, has gone up exponentially given the fraction of supposed accounts on Gox.

Look, I don't have a personal problem with it, you would expect that to be the case given bitcoin was so easy to mine for some 2 years but not many knew or believed in it.  That very nature of the matter created the current distribution.  With time it's possible that will change but right now the super rich are accumulating so that will further centralize the power of bitcoin in the hands of a few.

I'm not sure it can ever be different [in the end] with any popular currency.

I would think that the top % should sell some of their holdings each time we reach an ATH which changes the distribution of course.

If those coins were still on Gox then they won't have as many now either will they?  I guess Gox might return some of them.

I believe that many folks will spend or exchange their holdings when they grow enough. I will, according Risto's savings plan.

[Siegfried]

Translation:  Vlad was right and Bitcoin is very poorly distributed with the large majority of wealth in the hands of a few, thus making Bitcoin very much centralized and eerily similar to a Fiat 2.0.


That's just my guess of course and the true, freedom loving libertarians on this thread will surely delete this message.

Enjoy.

A guess how many people have more than 100 BTC?

Not sure, I'd guess a few thousand.  Max, 5,000 people.  But as a %, the handful of people at the top who easily own at least 25%, has gone up exponentially given the fraction of supposed accounts on Gox.

Look, I don't have a personal problem with it, you would expect that to be the case given bitcoin was so easy to mine for some 2 years but not many knew or believed in it.  That very nature of the matter created the current distribution.  With time it's possible that will change but right now the super rich are accumulating so that will further centralize the power of bitcoin in the hands of a few.

I'm not sure it can ever be different [in the end] with any popular currency.

I would think that the top % should sell some of their holdings each time we reach an ATH which changes the distribution of course.

If those coins were still on Gox then they won't have as many now either will they?  I guess Gox might return some of them.

Better yet, they should invest their holdings into new Bitcoin enterprises, or traditional businesses or philanthropic efforts, without converting to dollars. Pay people Bitcoin to do things. The Bitcoin super-rich can gain the tangible benefits of their wealth while distributing it to the wider population. If I had 100 million dollars worth of Bitcoin, I might buy my favorite local restaurant chain and pay all employees a portion of their salary in Bitcoin, offer discounts for Bitcoin-paying customers, source from suppliers that accept Bitcoin, sell Bitcoin at every location, etc. Hopefully the Bitcoin super-rich are smart enough to do things like this rather than just cash out for fiat.

[rpietila]

Translation:  Vlad was right and Bitcoin is very poorly distributed with the large majority of wealth in the hands of a few, thus making Bitcoin very much centralized and eerily similar to a Fiat 2.0.

That's just my guess of course and the true, freedom loving libertarians on this thread will surely delete this message.

We have this whole thread to discuss about it, so there is no need to delete anything, but how about supporting your conclusion with some data? Repetition without proof is propaganda, not research.

If I recall correctly one website, the dispersion of bitcoins is wider than with any altcoins (let's use the % of coins owned by TOP-50 people or addresses).

From my studies, the distribution of gold is very centralized, as an example, the gold reserves of Ukraine were flown to the States shortly after the coup. They will never get them back, as well as Germany is not getting theirs, or Finland hers or even U.S. people can not even see or audit the gold that was taken from them in 1933. If we take the TOP-50 entities that own gold, they easily account for 90% or more of all physical gold. Note: I am including the banking cabal as the top holder because they control the gold via possession, regardless where it is stolen from.

Silver is currently not so important, and its distribution is likely much more dispersed than that of gold but concentrated nevertheless.

Fiat is the worst of all - because fiat is based on debt, the "sum of all fiat" is actually negative. The ones running the system have total control over it, and in some countries more than half of people have actually more debt than cash balances!

Rothschilds control almost every central bank, most commercial banks and the majority of industrial corporations in the 1st world.

Among the alternatives, Bitcoin is doing really well. No matter which sort of cabal we assume is controlling Bitcoin, the distribution cannot be nearly as "bad" (=concentrated) as that of gold or fiat. The TOP-50 entities owning bitcoins have between 25-50% of the coins, not more.

Concentration of power is a fact, it is like a natural law. It is a product of having the freedom to exercise your talent and act shrewdly/frugally. Of course in the very top of the pyramid, the people there tend to be quite ruthless and sociopathic, but there is not much we can do about it. In a free economy their quest for power and riches will necessarily benefit others, in any other society they are detrimental to others' welfare. Bitcoin is a coin for the free, and I have great expectations that large balances of some people cannot be used as tools of evil, any more than the gold in the walls of the temple of Salomon.

A guess how many people have more than 100 BTC?

Not sure, I'd guess a few thousand.  Max, 5,000 people.

At least 5,000, but not more than 14,000.

But as a %, the handful of people at the top who easily own at least 25%, has gone up exponentially given the fraction of supposed accounts on Gox.

Gox average # of coins was BTC10-BTC12 (depending whether you count microholdings). Since Gox is an exchange of the past, when # of coins were bigger, it should have higher average balance than the general holder. Otoh, many don't keep all their coins in an exchange (although many do). If we assume that these two cancel each other, so that Gox account distribution is roughly equal to general account distribution, it would mean 1.0-1.2 million owners of bitcoins total.

In other words, I don't see that the gox revelation had the effect you're positing. On the contrary, though gox lied, this also confirmed that the number of bitcoinholders is at least 0.5 million for sure, otherwise the coins don't add up (I had feared that gox lost 2-3 million coins instead of <1M).

Look, I don't have a personal problem with it, you would expect that to be the case given bitcoin was so easy to mine for some 2 years but not many knew or believed in it.  That very nature of the matter created the current distribution.  With time it's possible that will change but right now the super rich are accumulating so that will further centralize the power of bitcoin in the hands of a few.

In my understanding, the very big holders are not really the people who mined in 2010 or bought in 2011. The early adopter advantage is a myth. A myth. There is no special class of people that saw everything and just made the right moves and sat on the coins. All the time since the end of 2010, newcomers have complained that the previouscomers are privileged. If you buy now, you are an early adopter in the eyes of people who enter at $7,000. If you don't believe, check whether you think $65 last summer was a good entry or not. Many have made money and sold off. If you mined/bought resolutely (like I did) and hold till this day, you are rich. That is true. But you could do it in January 2013 as well as any prior time. The early adopter advantage is a myth.

A different matter is that the super-rich are never selling, but that is what they always do. They buy land, and don't sell. They buy gold, and don't sell. Vatican owns 1/3 of Rome, and don't sell. That is a virtuous cycle, part of the reason why these assets are valuable, and the recognition of it. Would the banking cabal buy dogecoin?  

[Vlad2Vlad]

@rpietila,

Thanks for being a man about it and not deleting my post.

Point taken, I should bring proof and not just opinion.

Thanks for all your effort in gathering all this data.

[bryant.coleman]

TL;DR:  The number of bitcoin holders has just surpassed 2 million mark! The growth is happening in the holdings of 70 bitcoins or less, especially in micro-holdings of 1 bitcoin or less.

Great news. So Bitcoiners are now 0.03% of the world population. Imagine what could happen when 3% of the world population becomes Bitcoiners. The exchange value can increase by 10 to 100 times.

[billysweird]

Happy we are in partial agreement. I think you may be viewing this from the perspective of a teacher (a person dedicated to success of his/her students) wanting something that is generally impossible to achieve. Let me explain.

I have observed that in Asia and Latin America, education is the #1 priority. Whereas, in the west it only is if someone can get a huge student loan and live off it.

So I think the cause of what you lament is socialism and the debt bubble. Westerners aren't motivated. Why should they be. They are fattened up well by debt.

Just wait. It will implode then they will need to compete again.

As a professor, you are fighting against the lure of cookies (debt).

[Vlad2Vlad]

TL;DR:  The number of bitcoin holders has just surpassed 2 million mark! The growth is happening in the holdings of 70 bitcoins or less, especially in micro-holdings of 1 bitcoin or less.

Great news. So Bitcoiners are now 0.03% of the world population. Imagine what could happen when 3% of the world population becomes Bitcoiners. The exchange value can increase by 10 to 100 times.

I predicted last year that we'd get a massive push-pull (fear-greed) rush into cryptos, backed by everything from banks to media which will ensure roughly 10% adoption by end of next year.

It sounds crazy but I still believe that will be possible.  So yes, Bitcoin can go up 100 fold from today's $500, in the next 24 months, while select alt coins can go up more than 1,000-fold.

It's gonna be an amazing [explosive] time and it should start within the next 2-3 months.

PS. - And I fully expect Hollywood to get behind it as well.  

[teukon]

TL;DR:  The number of bitcoin holders has just surpassed 2 million mark! The growth is happening in the holdings of 70 bitcoins or less, especially in micro-holdings of 1 bitcoin or less.

Great news. So Bitcoiners are now 0.03% of the world population. Imagine what could happen when 3% of the world population becomes Bitcoiners. The exchange value can increase by 10 to 100 times.

Don't get too excited.  Some of the data used to support the 2 million claim has turned out to be false (Mt.Gox sources).  This estimate is likely to be revised downwards, heavily!

I think the evidence points out to 700k-1M users but would like to hear comments on the methods and not just "voting on the results"

[Vlad2Vlad]

TL;DR:  The number of bitcoin holders has just surpassed 2 million mark! The growth is happening in the holdings of 70 bitcoins or less, especially in micro-holdings of 1 bitcoin or less.

Great news. So Bitcoiners are now 0.03% of the world population. Imagine what could happen when 3% of the world population becomes Bitcoiners. The exchange value can increase by 10 to 100 times.

Don't get too excited.  Some of the data used to support the 2 million claim has turned out to be false (Mt.Gox sources).  This estimate is likely to be revised downwards, heavily!

I think the evidence points out to 700k-1M users but would like to hear comments on the methods and not just "voting on the results"

That's actually GREAT news.

Cause if Bitcoin achieved this level of success with less than 1 million users then imagine what will happen with 10+ million.

The public ETF license, coming later this year, something I said was a done deal way last year, will easily bring in 9 additional million investors in the US alone.

The reason is that money managers, Hedge Funds, Mutual Funds, IRAs, 401Ks, etc will all start putting something in Bitcoin and one can only imagine how quickly $100 billion in new capital will add up given there's trillions in investor money floating around in all the various account types.

At this point, BTC, and select Cryptos, are quickly approaching a low risk valuation while their upward profit potential are still astounding, such potential the investment world has never seen.

100,000%+ Crypto-Coin investments will be a reality in the next 12-24 months.

[SlipperySlope]

At this point, BTC, and select Cryptos, are quickly approaching a low risk valuation while their upward profit potential are still astounding, such potential the investment world has never seen.

+1

And this is the simple reason for the continued skepticism voiced by traditional investors, such are seen in the forums associated with financial websites.

They have never, ever, not in 4 thousand years, seen the investment potential that is unfolding in front of us.

[BitChick]

At this point, BTC, and select Cryptos, are quickly approaching a low risk valuation while their upward profit potential are still astounding, such potential the investment world has never seen.

+1

And this is the simple reason for the continued skepticism voiced by traditional investors, such are seen in the forums associated with financial websites.

They have never, ever, not in 4 thousand years, seen the investment potential that is unfolding in front of us.

Much truth.  Even we don't really know what we are in for yet I believe.

[Peter R]

At this point, BTC, and select Cryptos, are quickly approaching a low risk valuation while their upward profit potential are still astounding, such potential the investment world has never seen.

+1

And this is the simple reason for the continued skepticism voiced by traditional investors, such are seen in the forums associated with financial websites.

They have never, ever, not in 4 thousand years, seen the investment potential that is unfolding in front of us.

Much truth.  Even we don't really know what we are in for yet I believe.

I hear the US is targeting Vladimir's $40 billion stash in Switzerland.  If only there was a way to store wealth without the assistance of a third-party or the permission of an authority:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578286.0

[SlipperySlope]

I hear the US is targeting Vladimir's $40 billion stash in Switzerland.  If only there was a way to store wealth without the assistance of a third-party or the permission of an authority:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578286.0

By way of redistributing wealth, and funding the State, I would not be surprised, and increasingly suspect that bitcoin holdings will eventually be considered property subject to tax, in the same way that land is taxed in the USA. In democracies, new sorts of taxes have been in the past introduced at very modest rates and limited to apply to a minority of taxpayers so as to be politically acceptable to the majority.

The most palatable form of a bitcoin holdings tax would be one in which the rate of taxation is substantially less than the rate of deflation. For example, if I would not leave the USA and hide my family if the tax rate was 0.1% of holdings annually, given my expectation of 1000% price growth on average annually for the next few years.

The blockchain is public and I believe facilitates the collection of taxes in jurisdictions such as the USA in which tax compliance by citizens is voluntary.

Note that I am for fair taxation, as tax jurisdictions serve the common good. I am not for the confiscation of bitcoin by governments - simply because early adopters may eventually be sudden new $ billionaires and perhaps in a few cases $ trillionaires.

[dyask]

I hear the US is targeting Vladimir's $40 billion stash in Switzerland.  If only there was a way to store wealth without the assistance of a third-party or the permission of an authority:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578286.0

By way of redistributing wealth, and funding the State, I would not be surprised, and increasingly suspect that bitcoin holdings will eventually be considered property subject to tax, in the same way that land is taxed in the USA. In democracies, new sorts of taxes have been in the past introduced at very modest rates and limited to apply to a minority of taxpayers so as to be politically acceptable to the majority.

The most palatable form of a bitcoin holdings tax would be one in which the rate of taxation is substantially less than the rate of deflation. For example, if I would not leave the USA and hide my family if the tax rate was 0.1% of holdings annually, given my expectation of 1000% price growth on average annually for the next few years.

The blockchain is public and I believe facilitates the collection of taxes in jurisdictions such as the USA in which tax compliance by citizens is voluntary.

Note that I am for fair taxation, as tax jurisdictions serve the common good. I am not for the confiscation of bitcoin by governments - simply because early adopters may eventually be sudden new $ billionaires and perhaps in a few cases $ trillionaires.

I practice this is already the case in the Netherlands. Annually people pay 1.2% tax over all there holdings over ~21k Euro (Excluding items you use such as your house and cars, for arbitrary reasons). Your net worth include your Bitcoins (as the Dutch IRS has made very clear) so I already paid the tax in 2013.

*This tax is to tax investment gains without having to check them. therefore we don't have to pay things such as capital gains tax and dividend tax.

Actually it seems like a sane system. 

[boumalo]

I hear the US is targeting Vladimir's $40 billion stash in Switzerland.  If only there was a way to store wealth without the assistance of a third-party or the permission of an authority:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578286.0

By way of redistributing wealth, and funding the State, I would not be surprised, and increasingly suspect that bitcoin holdings will eventually be considered property subject to tax, in the same way that land is taxed in the USA. In democracies, new sorts of taxes have been in the past introduced at very modest rates and limited to apply to a minority of taxpayers so as to be politically acceptable to the majority.

The most palatable form of a bitcoin holdings tax would be one in which the rate of taxation is substantially less than the rate of deflation. For example, if I would not leave the USA and hide my family if the tax rate was 0.1% of holdings annually, given my expectation of 1000% price growth on average annually for the next few years.

The blockchain is public and I believe facilitates the collection of taxes in jurisdictions such as the USA in which tax compliance by citizens is voluntary.

Note that I am for fair taxation, as tax jurisdictions serve the common good. I am not for the confiscation of bitcoin by governments - simply because early adopters may eventually be sudden new $ billionaires and perhaps in a few cases $ trillionaires.

I practice this is already the case in the Netherlands. Annually people pay 1.2% tax over all there holdings over ~21k Euro (Excluding items you use such as your house and cars, for arbitrary reasons). Your net worth include your Bitcoins (as the Dutch IRS has made very clear) so I already paid the tax in 2013.

*This tax is to tax investment gains without having to check them. therefore we don't have to pay things such as capital gains tax and dividend tax.

A simple low level tax is better than a complicated one but being taxed on your holdings is racket : you never really own them since you need to pay a rent or be thrown in jail

[teukon]

Note that I am for fair taxation

I think everyone is for "fair" taxation.  The problem is that people disagree as to what is fair.

• For some, no taxes at all is the only fair system.
• For some, Fair taxes are where everyone pays in the same amount.
• For some, flat taxes (everyone pays in the same percentage of their wealth) are ideal.
• Some hold that progressive taxes (where the rich pay not only more than the poor, but a larger percentage of what they have) are best.
• Some say that the more even the wealth distribution is, the fairer it is, with communism being the only truly fair system.

[SlipperySlope]

Note that I am for fair taxation

I think everyone is for "fair" taxation.  The problem is that people disagree as to what is fair.

• For some, no taxes at all is the only fair system.
• For some, Fair taxes are where everyone pays in the same amount.
• For some, flat taxes (everyone pays in the same percentage of their wealth) are ideal.
• Some hold that progressive taxes (where the rich pay not only more than the poor, but a larger percentage of what they have) are best.
• Some say that the more even the wealth distribution is, the fairer it is, with communism being the only truly fair system.

My own idea of balancing social ideals and long term economic growth for everyone, is to favor consumption taxes, not taxes on capital.

Alas, despite the popular belief in the USA that the rich escape taxation, the burden of local, state and federal taxation progressively falls upon the wealthy. Almost half of US citizens pay no federal income tax, and the poor, disabled and elderly especially profit from government transfer payments.

Although capital gains and estate taxes will gain revenue from the sudden new bitcoin $billionaires and $trillionaires, that tax revenue will be realized only when they sell or die. I have a belief, growing stronger, that holders will regard bitcoin as precious to the extent that many large holders will be loath to sell. An analogy would be medieval land estates - never sold, only inherited.

That is why I believe taxes on bitcoin holdings will follow the precedent set by taxes on land property here in the USA.