Technological unemployment is (almost) here

[BeeTeeSea]

No doubt we will see this happen, I wonder what BTC will be useful for in a such a society?

It could be that cryptocurrency will play a part in the knowledge based information economy.

Yeah but if we dont need money anymore because machines have replaced 99% of jobs?

[1714875497]

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[bigtimespaghetti]

No doubt we will see this happen, I wonder what BTC will be useful for in a such a society?

It could be that cryptocurrency will play a part in the knowledge based information economy.

Yeah but if we dont need money anymore because machines have replaced 99% of jobs?

Want to watch someone play live music? Want to pay for a painting by a person? Want to buy a game? We are social animals, not some dystopian techno recluses... At least not yet. Read the short story 'the machine stops' even in that grim depiction of total automation there was still interaction and therefore value being exchanged.

[giantdragon]

Can anyone recommend some good books on this topic, Im really interested in what are predictions by people from economic and technological circles, about the coming robotization of everything, also people working on AI believe we will get there in our life time. AI will bring bigger revolution than internet.

For solutions, right-wingers should read Martin Ford's "Lights in the tunnel" and socialists of course Karl Marx's "Capital".

[STT]

Capitalists of either wing could read some books or articles by some of the names listed below.   You could probably just type their names into youtube and get some old tv clip, Milton Friedman being one of the most famous.

Theres always Adam Smith: An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, generally referred to by its shortened title The Wealth of Nations.   Or you could simply look up comparative advantage, just read an explanation of that.  I reckon that covers alot of complaints or pleas for protectionism and why it makes every part of society poorer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Libertarian_theorists

Yeah but if we dont need money anymore because machines have replaced 99% of jobs?

If we could get free energy I could believe in no more money.   But theres always going to be something people cant get and want and barter is too inefficient so theres money even if all people were rich.
I think we already transformed what money means.  It used to be very close to food and to own production was money or wealth, its not ridiculous now that money could relate to more digital type wealth however I think our current money is a bit corrupt hence bitcoin is valid and needed innovation ?  (even if did fail it was a system with merit)

[frankenmint]

And don't forget poetry. Machines can't do that.

Yet.

http://www.everypoet.com/haiku/

Boom...I made a liar of Shawshank

the thing about machines is someone has to maintain it. i used to work a job where i was the guy in a parking garage who took your money. then a machine got brought it (Automated payment at automatic gate) and then i became a valet parking guy, who also had to now fix that god damn machine because it broke every 45 minutes of every day. god that job sucked haha but either way. for every machine invented a job field is created for technicians of those machines, until machines start to repair themselves, which requires self awareness. and then we have bigger problems on our hands.

ding ding ding!!!  This is the conclusion I see here too. 

[giveBTCpls]

the thing about machines is someone has to maintain it. i used to work a job where i was the guy in a parking garage who took your money. then a machine got brought it (Automated payment at automatic gate) and then i became a valet parking guy, who also had to now fix that god damn machine because it broke every 45 minutes of every day. god that job sucked haha but either way. for every machine invented a job field is created for technicians of those machines, until machines start to repair themselves, which requires self awareness. and then we have bigger problems on our hands.

Yeah of course, but think about 2114. You are delusional as hell if you think automated machines will not have automated most of the jobs and you are delusional to think they will break easily. You are also delusional if you think "eureka! it's all solved, lets make all unemployed people machine-repairers", because not everyone is genetically blessed to learn electronics and how to understand and solve mechanical/electronic problems to fix the machines. TONS of people will be left behind without shit nothing to do. In other words: Monetary system will de facto collapse.

[bigtimespaghetti]

the thing about machines is someone has to maintain it. i used to work a job where i was the guy in a parking garage who took your money. then a machine got brought it (Automated payment at automatic gate) and then i became a valet parking guy, who also had to now fix that god damn machine because it broke every 45 minutes of every day. god that job sucked haha but either way. for every machine invented a job field is created for technicians of those machines, until machines start to repair themselves, which requires self awareness. and then we have bigger problems on our hands.

Yeah of course, but think about 2114. You are delusional as hell if you think automated machines will not have automated most of the jobs and you are delusional to think they will break easily. You are also delusional if you think "eureka! it's all solved, lets make all unemployed people machine-repairers", because not everyone is genetically blessed to learn electronics and how to understand and solve mechanical/electronic problems to fix the machines. TONS of people will be left behind without shit nothing to do. In other words: Monetary system will de facto collapse.

It's hard to imagine what people will be like in the future. There have always been tugs of war between the productive and parasite classes. I can't imagine that it could be any worse than our current situation, with constant subsidy of others.

[Rassah]

No doubt we will see this happen, I wonder what BTC will be useful for in a such a society?

It could be that cryptocurrency will play a part in the knowledge based information economy.

Yeah but if we dont need money anymore because machines have replaced 99% of jobs?

You know the saying "Time is money?" As long as time exists, money will exist. Even if everything you could ever want is provided for you, someone will always want it provided to them faster, or be the first in line to get it.

[frankenmint]

No doubt we will see this happen, I wonder what BTC will be useful for in a such a society?

It could be that cryptocurrency will play a part in the knowledge based information economy.

Yeah but if we dont need money anymore because machines have replaced 99% of jobs?

You know the saying "Time is money?" As long as time exists, money will exist. Even if everything you could ever want is provided for you, someone will always want it provided to them faster, or be the first in line to get it.

Who defines the value correlation between them, I think that is the question.  Plus, there is a difference between time to spend vs efficiencies gained.  A future could perhaps exist where autonomous society is a second class to assist operators who also still remain as the interfaces between us - otherwise we are describing large interactive vending machines - how do the machines load and drop off foods, will we have a robotic police society?  (thats a new level of fear we haven't covered yet either) 

The operators will more likely than not be humans for the longer term.  I think that an autonmous society would still need an efficient mechansim to ensure security and THAT would depend on humans - WatchDogs, while only a work of art, has some eerie resemblances to what 'could' be possible with a determined enough hacker|group of hackers with either a monetary or self-serving cause to overrun.  Something like this but with AI and DAC p2p models handling all customer throughputs.

[Pacowomo]

It is there and it's unstopable, can't stop progress.

[RoadTrain]

Btw, does anyone know what happened to the Swiss unconditional income initiative?
I heard they were gonna make a referendum.

[Nicolas Dorier]

Yeah of course, but think about 2114. You are delusional as hell if you think automated machines will not have automated most of the jobs and you are delusional to think they will break easily. You are also delusional if you think "eureka! it's all solved, lets make all unemployed people machine-repairers", because not everyone is genetically blessed to learn electronics and how to understand and solve mechanical/electronic problems to fix the machines. TONS of people will be left behind without shit nothing to do. In other words: Monetary system will de facto collapse.

For all works we are doing today, we were not genetically conditioned to do it. (well... except the oldest profession which is prostitution :p)
But people adapted nevertheless.

The same argument you are saying can be held for job held today that did not existed yesterday.
We were not meant to stay sit before a computer screen all day long looking at numbers.
Not meant to do repeative work in a factory. Not meant to labor all day long under the sun to labour our dried field.

There is not such thing as being "genetically conditioned" to learn or stay dumb.
Our brain always adapted to other tasks unbelievably well. Gosh, I teached basics of html to a 9 years old child in less than a week.

Ignorance is a choice, don't make me pay for it.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Btw, does anyone know what happened to the Swiss unconditional income initiative?
I heard they were gonna make a referendum.

voted down about 80% against ... swiss don't like socialist nonsense, checkout their economy btw.

This thread is informative in that it allows many of the non-thinking ill-informed posters to display their ignorance ... for future reference.

[RoadTrain]

Btw, does anyone know what happened to the Swiss unconditional income initiative?
I heard they were gonna make a referendum.

voted down about 80% against ... swiss don't like socialist nonsense, checkout their economy btw.

This thread is informative in that it allows many of the non-thinking ill-informed posters to display their ignorance ... for future reference.

That's kinda sad... Would be interesting to look at this kind of an experiment. Considering that Namibia experiments turned out to be largely positive for the economy.

Didn't get at whom you directed the second part of your message.

[kjj]

Who defines the value correlation between them, I think that is the question.  Plus, there is a difference between time to spend vs efficiencies gained.  A future could perhaps exist where autonomous society is a second class to assist operators who also still remain as the interfaces between us - otherwise we are describing large interactive vending machines - how do the machines load and drop off foods, will we have a robotic police society?  (thats a new level of fear we haven't covered yet either)

Defines the value correlation?

If you mean "define" as in sets, then you are horribly mistaken about economics.  If you mean "define" as in describe, then your question is unimportant.

Nothing has a fixed value, or even a known value.  When person A trades thing or service B for thing or service C from person D, the most we can say is that (values) B_A<=C_A and (values)C_D<=B_D.  It is likely, but not certain, that at least one of the inequalities is actually < instead of <=.

Markets exist to facilitate trades and to gather information on values.  By publishing data on bids, offers and trades, markets help people estimate how much other people value things, which helps them decide if they should buy, wait, sell or hold, and what sorts of prices are likely to be reasonable.  Money helps too, by suggesting a common scale, though many people have a hard time recognizing that the value of money varies in time and place, and individually.

In the hypothetical world of material abundance, the value of time will be set by the buyers and sellers of time, exactly the same way that time is priced today.  How could it ever be different?

[Rassah]

You know the saying "Time is money?" As long as time exists, money will exist. Even if everything you could ever want is provided for you, someone will always want it provided to them faster, or be the first in line to get it.

Who defines the value correlation between them,

Same people who decide the correlation between bitcoins and dollars: traders on the market. Someone will say I will pay $ to get this cool thing first, and someone else will say they'll pay $+1.

[transient858]

the thing about machines is someone has to maintain it. i used to work a job where i was the guy in a parking garage who took your money. then a machine got brought it (Automated payment at automatic gate) and then i became a valet parking guy, who also had to now fix that god damn machine because it broke every 45 minutes of every day. god that job sucked haha but either way. for every machine invented a job field is created for technicians of those machines, until machines start to repair themselves, which requires self awareness. and then we have bigger problems on our hands.

Yeah of course, but think about 2114. You are delusional as hell if you think automated machines will not have automated most of the jobs and you are delusional to think they will break easily. You are also delusional if you think "eureka! it's all solved, lets make all unemployed people machine-repairers", because not everyone is genetically blessed to learn electronics and how to understand and solve mechanical/electronic problems to fix the machines. TONS of people will be left behind without shit nothing to do. In other words: Monetary system will de facto collapse.

It's hard to imagine what people will be like in the future. There have always been tugs of war between the productive and parasite classes. I can't imagine that it could be any worse than our current situation, with constant subsidy of others.

In a fully automated society, everyone is in the parasite class category. Demand and need will be drastically different than what we see today.

[Rassah]

In a fully automated society, everyone is in the parasite class category. Demand and need will be drastically different than what we see today.

That implies everyone is of a parasite mentality. Some people keep working even after they retire, or after they become millionaires and have no reason to keep working to earn a living.

[bigtimespaghetti]

the thing about machines is someone has to maintain it. i used to work a job where i was the guy in a parking garage who took your money. then a machine got brought it (Automated payment at automatic gate) and then i became a valet parking guy, who also had to now fix that god damn machine because it broke every 45 minutes of every day. god that job sucked haha but either way. for every machine invented a job field is created for technicians of those machines, until machines start to repair themselves, which requires self awareness. and then we have bigger problems on our hands.

Yeah of course, but think about 2114. You are delusional as hell if you think automated machines will not have automated most of the jobs and you are delusional to think they will break easily. You are also delusional if you think "eureka! it's all solved, lets make all unemployed people machine-repairers", because not everyone is genetically blessed to learn electronics and how to understand and solve mechanical/electronic problems to fix the machines. TONS of people will be left behind without shit nothing to do. In other words: Monetary system will de facto collapse.

It's hard to imagine what people will be like in the future. There have always been tugs of war between the productive and parasite classes. I can't imagine that it could be any worse than our current situation, with constant subsidy of others.

In a fully automated society, everyone is in the parasite class category. Demand and need will be drastically different than what we see today.

Everyone and no-one, with no need (or rather ability enabled by the state) to leech off of productive individuals, wealth confiscation would be irrelevant. But yes, demand and need could be  totally different.

I don't know how many of you guys enjoy sci-fi, but I can't help but think of the short story- the Withering Shere, or the Dwindling Sphere (can't remember exactly). Not exactly the most logical of short stories, but certainly has relevant themes to what we are discussing.

[Keyara]

In a fully automated society, everyone is in the parasite class category. Demand and need will be drastically different than what we see today.

That implies everyone is of a parasite mentality. Some people keep working even after they retire, or after they become millionaires and have no reason to keep working to earn a living.

To keep working, you need to have a job that meet the need of the population at that time. If everything is being done by robot, there will be no need that can't be done by robot and no job around for human.