How big is bitfinex?

[zby]

Looks like bitfinex is pushing bitstamp up at this moment (the bids there are a little bit higher than bitstamp bids - and you can observe that the borrowing is also pretty expensive at this moment). Is it already as big as bitcoinica in the past? Can it start and crash rallies?

[theonewhowaskazu]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

[windjc]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

[theonewhowaskazu]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

Those numbers are likely fudged, and if not, about 11k coins are about to be sold when those USD borrowers decide they want to lay off the leverage.

[notme]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

Those numbers are likely fudged, and if not, about 11k coins are about to be sold when those USD borrowers decide they want to lay off the leverage.

Or when they get force liquidated .  Big profit opportunity for someone with the coins to trigger it.

[SheHadMANHands]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

Those numbers are likely fudged, and if not, about 11k coins are about to be sold when those USD borrowers decide they want to lay off the leverage.

Bitfinex is nothing new, you know.  People take short positions there as well.  People have been going long there for quite a while.  Margin positions are part of a healthy market.

[windjc]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

Those numbers are likely fudged, and if not, about 11k coins are about to be sold when those USD borrowers decide they want to lay off the leverage.

Bitfinex is nothing new, you know.  People take short positions there as well.  People have been going long there for quite a while.  Margin positions are part of a healthy market.

I lend quite a lot of money there now. Those #s are not fudged, I can tell you that.

It amazes me that some of the same people that think we can just magically go from here to $2500 without massive money moving into these markets are the same that doubt that 2.5 million is being lent on Bitfinex.

Jess, people. Jess.

[zby]

I doubt its that big, at least not the leverage component. And,Bitfinex without the leverage is the same as any other exchange really, so its not hugely important for price discovery.

Its pretty big compared with anything else I know out there. It currently has 2.5 million loaned in leverage trading.

Those numbers are likely fudged, and if not, about 11k coins are about to be sold when those USD borrowers decide they want to lay off the leverage.

Bitfinex is nothing new, you know.  People take short positions there as well.  People have been going long there for quite a while.  Margin positions are part of a healthy market.

When bitcoinica ran out of cash the rallies ended and corrections started - are we there with bitfinex now?

[accord01]

was bitcoinica peer to peer lending?

[notme]

was bitcoinica peer to peer lending?

Sort of.... they used customer funds to do the lending and gave you a small amount of interest on any balance that wasn't used for margin.  But they didn't have a lending order book like bitfinex.  Rates were set by an algorithm.

[nrd525]

Bitfinex is pretty big.  The 24 hour volume is 32k BTC and 59k LTC.  

So it could be almost as big as Bitstamp (which gets a lot of its trades, possibly as much as a third, from BFX).

US lending is growing rapidly.  Several months ago it was around 1 million - now $2.7 million.

It isn't running out of money. US lending rates haven't risen dramatically over time (they are less now than during the crazy $266 bubble).

Unlike Bitcoinica, which limited lending rates to 20%, BFX has higher rates (typically 30-50% APR, or 100%+ in a crazy bubble) and thus more supply.

[solracx]

Bitfinex is pretty big.  The 24 hour volume is 32k BTC and 59k LTC.  

So it could be almost as big as Bitstamp (which gets a lot of its trades, possibly as much as a third, from BFX).

US lending is growing rapidly.  Several months ago it was around 1 million - now $2.7 million.

It isn't running out of money. US lending rates haven't risen dramatically over time (they are less now than during the crazy $266 bubble).

Unlike Bitcoinica, which limited lending rates to 20%, BFX has higher rates (typically 30-50% APR, or 100%+ in a crazy bubble) and thus more supply.

Do you know if Bitfinex is legit?

I have an account, but am about uneasy about the latest news of an exchange in Hong Kong scamming their customers.

Anyone have any info of the credibility of the owners?

[MPOE-PR]

Do you know if Bitfinex is legit?

I have an account, but am about uneasy about the latest news of an exchange in Hong Kong scamming their customers.

Anyone have any info of the credibility of the owners?

Bitfinex is a scam.

[nrd525]

Based on the actions and attitude of the BFX founder Raphael Nicolle, I'd say the website and organization is legitimate.  They've systematically fixed every bug I've reported and never been hacked.

It is still risky, like most bitcoin businesses.  And judging legitimacy is very hard.

They may have greatly benefited from luck during the April bitcoin surge/crash (the fact that the price recovered after the flash crash while MtGox was lagging out saved them, and everyone using the website, a great deal of money).

[superbit]

Do you know if Bitfinex is legit?

I have an account, but am about uneasy about the latest news of an exchange in Hong Kong scamming their customers.

Anyone have any info of the credibility of the owners?

Bitfinex is a scam.

I have no idea if you are right or wrong here.  I can say that I have had money in this site and have never had any problems collecting interest and getting money wired to my personal bank account.  Never had issues buying BTC and sending it either.

However, you were right on labcoin, it just seems like you come in here with allegations and no hard proof, and as stated in the case of labcoin you were correct and saved me some $$

But wouldn't it be better for you to offer constructive feedback.  For example, let's say that it is not a scam, what kind of proof / documents would you like to be seen?  For all we know there is something that can be provided that would give us a bitcoin success story to talk about.

Scam warnings are a great thing for the community, but better feedback will help the community learn what to look for in certain situations.

Just my $0.02, thanks for reading.

[MPOE-PR]

I have no idea if you are right or wrong here.  I can say that I have had money in this site and have never had any problems collecting interest and getting money wired to my personal bank account.  Never had issues buying BTC and sending it either.

However, you were right on labcoin, it just seems like you come in here with allegations and no hard proof, and as stated in the case of labcoin you were correct and saved me some $$

But wouldn't it be better for you to offer constructive feedback.  For example, let's say that it is not a scam, what kind of proof / documents would you like to be seen?  For all we know there is something that can be provided that would give us a bitcoin success story to talk about.

Scam warnings are a great thing for the community, but better feedback will help the community learn what to look for in certain situations.

Just my $0.02, thanks for reading.

Those who act according to the habits and principles of scammers, whether because of their own deliberate intention to scam, or through their ignorance of how to act in a manner consistent with honesty and professionalism (and especially in spite of being told what they'd need to do to comply with this), shall be treated as scammers.

The "community", inasmuch as you mean forum users here who insist on not reading or glossing over what I say because it's too long, too painful, or includes words they don't like or don't understand and won't learn, would know precisely what to look for simply by reading my post history. It's been said countless times. It's been listed by numbers, it's been argued and substantiated. People who don't want to read still don't want to read, people who aren't threatened by it learn and go on to master the ownership of their coins, what can I say.

Reject the actual evidence brought in favor of some mystical "hard proof" at your own peril. I understand the world'd be easier to navigate if things were put into your preferred form and fit your expectations of what things ought to look like, but we're not here to make things easier for everyone. We're here to do things correctly.

[superbit]

I have no idea if you are right or wrong here.  I can say that I have had money in this site and have never had any problems collecting interest and getting money wired to my personal bank account.  Never had issues buying BTC and sending it either.

However, you were right on labcoin, it just seems like you come in here with allegations and no hard proof, and as stated in the case of labcoin you were correct and saved me some $$

But wouldn't it be better for you to offer constructive feedback.  For example, let's say that it is not a scam, what kind of proof / documents would you like to be seen?  For all we know there is something that can be provided that would give us a bitcoin success story to talk about.

Scam warnings are a great thing for the community, but better feedback will help the community learn what to look for in certain situations.

Just my $0.02, thanks for reading.

Those who act according to the habits and principles of scammers, whether because of their own deliberate intention to scam, or through their ignorance of how to act in a manner consistent with honesty and professionalism (and especially in spite of being told what they'd need to do to comply with this), shall be treated as scammers.

The "community", inasmuch as you mean forum users here who insist on not reading or glossing over what I say because it's too long, too painful, or includes words they don't like or don't understand and won't learn, would know precisely what to look for simply by reading my post history. It's been said countless times. It's been listed by numbers, it's been argued and substantiated. People who don't want to read still don't want to read, people who aren't threatened by it learn and go on to master the ownership of their coins, what can I say.

Reject the actual evidence brought in favor of some mystical "hard proof" at your own peril. I understand the world'd be easier to navigate if things were put into your preferred form and fit your expectations of what things ought to look like, but we're not here to make things easier for everyone. We're here to do things correctly.

Please point out where this was done.  I've done a ton of reading, I see the allegations.  I have acted accordingly, as I said you saved me $ on labcoin, but the bolded statement above suggests there was constructive criticism given on this issue, please point me to the post where you suggest what they should do instead of just pointing out the flaws.

[MPOE-PR]

Please point out where this was done.  I've done a ton of reading, I see the allegations.  I have acted accordingly, as I said you saved me $ on labcoin, but the bolded statement above suggests there was constructive criticism given on this issue, please point me to the post where you suggest what they should do instead of just pointing out the flaws.

It's the third in the list of reasons I just linked to. Here, I'll save you a couple of clicks (literally, two):

A. That is the worst most laughable pathetic excuse for a "contract" I've ever seen. There is a reason you solicit the help of experts when drawing up contracts, and pay for this benefit. That reason is so that your contracts look like stuff on MPEx and more importantly work. The alternative is the mountain of fail depicted above.

B. You're no better than the other scammers involved.

"it wouldn't be the same and probably it couldn't be existing any longer, because it was a bucket shop."

versus

-the trust issue: yes, MPOE lady you are right, this is a big issue. At this point I don't see what I could do more than exposing my full name, address and photo, and being as transparent as I can. For those who feel this is not enough (and I understand you), maybe you can wait until we're a registered company.

3. Besides that is required an audit for the entire bitfinex platform,
the platform tempered/adjusted twice, first with mister Tang and was
credited from him 150.000 USD, that he didn't deposit in his account,
the second time when mister Devasini was credited one million dollars,
money that he didn't have deposited in his account. Because of this I
cannot be sure if the current losses are real or not.

You knew it was a bucket shop just like I knew it was a bucket shop. You knew it was running a joke of a codebase just as I knew it was running a joke of a codebase. You kept quiet about it, as long as you were an insider. You are no longer quiet about it, because the other thieves involved locked you out.

Yes please, scammer tags. For all those involved:

the OP
Giancarlo Devasini <g.devasini@gmail.com>
J.L. van der Velde <jlvdv@hotmail.com>
Raphael Nicolle <raphbot@gmail.com>

Once that's done, let's re-read historical posts:

-the trust issue: yes, MPOE lady you are right, this is a big issue. At this point I don't see what I could do more than exposing my full name, address and photo, and being as transparent as I can. For those who feel this is not enough (and I understand you), maybe you can wait until we're a registered company.

The problem here is that you seem to be starting from a point of "I shall be doing this" and then consider what could bolster your position. This is completely wrong and wholly unacceptable: you should not be doing this. At all. It is a horribly bad idea to be doing this. It can't end well. It's running with scissors as a four year old with a bad knee and a broken ankle on an old stairwell made of long-rotten pinewood which has lots of ice splotches on top of it during an earthquake at sea in rough weather on a wet deck with hurricane level winds blowing portside.

Maybe one day you might find yourself in the position of being a world-renowned acrobat who can run with scissors up and down an old stairwell made out of rotten pinewood with ice splotches in rough sea etc. Maybe. Provided you are born tall and lanky and with a talent for ballet, and your parents send you to the proper schools from a fresh young age and you are muchly interested in all that's required to become thusly acrobatically accomplished and are very disciplined and get lucky enough to amass the right sort of experience then possibly, maybe, sometime, one day, you might meet this opportunity of your life and thus dance on the proverbial rotten pinewood stairwell (with ice on it).

So, practically: forget about this project. Close it down. Go read up on finance, go read up on computer programming, on security, on business management, on law. Start small, prove that you can correctly handle fifty bitcoins over the span of A FEW YEARS. Then move into larger and larger things until one day you can maybe, if you're still inclined and it's still fashionable, try this.

Nobody cares that you register a company. It makes no damned difference, in the time it took me to type out this I could have registered five. A monkey with a funny hat can register a company. It's a fifty dollar expenditure in most US states, it's the practical equivalent of organizing a dinner with your ex who happens to be visiting your town. It adds precisely zero to your overall chances to not end up in a sad, sad position a few months down the road.

Why drag a bunch of people with you?

Prosperity is in general the result of the working of free markets. The one caveat to this observation is that market participants have to be responsible. It doesn't matter so much if they are intelligent or not, it doesn't really matter if they're good christians or devout muslims or anything else, but they do have to be responsible.

When some people behave irresponsibly the result is that they lose their money, which flows, albeit indirectly and circumvolutedly but nevertheless unerringly, to more responsible participants.

When a small majority* of participants behave irresponsibly however the net result is not just pain to their own fortunes, but pain spread across the board. All of a sudden you have to be very intelligent, and very experienced, and very well informed to manage to keep your money safe, and often enough even that's not going to suffice.

Giving over half a million bitcoins to a random idiot has the unpleasant effect of creating a high powered idiot. He can now wreak havoc on the exchange rate, which increases volatility and on the long term hurts everyone involved in bitcoins, because volatility is, much like inflation, an indirect tax on users.

Giving over half a million bitcoins to a random idiot has the unpleasant effect of creating half a million bitcoins' worth of valueless receipts, which are pretty much indistinguishable to the naked eye from valid receipts. Thus, if you pay on anyone's credit you are basing your judgment not on actual fact, but on an unknown and pretty much unknowable mixture of fact and hogwash.

Giving over half a million bitcoins to a random idiot is a bad idea. There are people whose personal responsibility in this matter is greater than that of most everyone else, people who have in effect acted as lieutenants for the random idiot. This thread is a convenient spot for all of them to avoid the indignity of being called out, and instead freely and willingly admit their mistake, and by admitting it learn from it. Specifically, learn that they aren't nearly as qualified as they thought to play the "banker", and by this make one step towards maybe one day actually being bankers.

The wanna-be bankers are not alone in their hour of humiliation. There are plenty of others who spend their entire day spouting nonsense on this forum, either under the guise of being "journalists" for some monthly magazine that does a couple issues a year or just as random internet experts in everything. Obviously they won't be learning anything on this opportunity as they haven't learned anything on any of the previous ones in their lives. That's after all fine, what would a mining town be without the drunks and general scum?

Aside from these practical considerations, there are some more general points to be taken home by anybody who wants to be a little smarter today than last month, and possibly have a little better shot at actually making money than before.

1. Learn the pecking order. All opinions are not equal. Some people are to be respected. Learn who. Some people are irrelevant and easily ignored. Learn who. More importantly than the who, learn why. Is it just because "everyone else seems to think so"? That's no good, forget it. Is it because they were right when everyone else was wrong? That's perfect, especially if it occurs with any sort of consistency.

2. Business means something very specific. Only the permanently poor imagine business = "anything to do with money". There's no business without a business plan. If something purports to be a business but "it can't" or it just won't share its business plan it is not a business. This means you can't be investing in it. Sure, you can throw money at anything you wish, as for instance the toilet bowl, Ponzi scams or scantily clad girls. However, in order to invest you absolutely need a business first.

3. Learn how to deal with your own mental limitations. If you think you don't have any you find yourself most likely in the situation described here:

If one skims through the psychological literature, one will find some evidence that the incompetent are less able than their more skilled peers to gauge their own level of competence. For example, Fagot and O'Brien (1994) found that socially incompetent boys were largely unaware of their lack of social graces (see Bem & Lord, 1979 , for a similar result involving college students). Mediocre students are less accurate than other students at evaluating their course performance ( Moreland, Miller, & Laucka, 1981 ). Unskilled readers are less able to assess their text comprehension than are more skilled readers ( Maki, Jonas, & Kallod, 1994 ). Students doing poorly on tests less accurately predict which questions they will get right than do students doing well ( Shaughnessy, 1979 ; Sinkavich, 1995 ). Drivers involved in accidents or flunking a driving exam predict their performance on a reaction test less accurately than do more accomplished and experienced drivers ( Kunkel, 1971 ).

In short: if you're not aware that there's anything wrong with your judgment of "business", "finance", "investing", "money" and so forth that is almost certainly due to the fact that you are very weak on all of these topics, likely significantly below average. You should spend a good deal of time reading and a greater deal of time testing things out methodically before you promote yourself mentally to "average", or even "crummy". This means years. Years.

The advantage of BTC is that it's a very cheap and very clean way to learn about finance. The disadvantage (if we can call it that) is that it's much akin to falling in love: very, very, very hard on the knees. Vitriolic to the ego.

4. Step outside of your ideology. You might have been brought up in a very repressive social milieu in which some particular ideological slant was drilled into you. This is working to your disadvantage, get rid of it. Are you sticking up for your friends because they're your friends rather than because they have a point? Great for facebook, horrible for BTC. You will lose money. Are you following the crowd like a welfare state lemming? Great for the white collar slave, horrible for BTC. You will lose money. Do you think form is above content and as such it's okay to invade foreign countries and slaughter civilians just as long as nobody says shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker or tits on TV? Great for being an American, horrible for the free world. You will lose money.

5. Re-read this entire post. It probably didn't fully sink in on the first pass. Seriously. Alternatively it is always easier to just not like me. You will lose money.

---------
* This term of... art, let's say, will go down in BTC history.

And perhaps learn something from it all. This time, the Nth time.

Now I get that you've done "a ton of reading", and I know it's a lot of work, and that there's seemingly endless miles of stuff to sift through. The fact it's been sitting here since September 7th of LAST YEAR at the earliest and October 28th of last year at the most specific to the "service" in question should be a pretty good clue that this "ton" isn't yet optimal. If it makes you feel any better though, it's more likely an issue of structure and organization than amount.