TradeHill - Why we no longer accept Dwolla and an open letter to Ben Milne

[Vladimir]

Dwolla went back and altered their account statements, and didn't even notify them?

That's FRAUD. Lawsuit time, guys.

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[Einewton]

Dwolla went back and altered their account statements, and didn't even notify them?

That's FRAUD. Lawsuit time, guys.

+1

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[indio007]

Will the kleptocracy ever end?
Theft and fraud are the modern business model.
WTF happened to honor and being honorable.
People would fight to the death over being called a liar. Now, it's just a way to enrich yourself.

[Vladimir]

Who cares about VC's sabotaging TH funding efforts. We can fund TH with bitcoins.

BTW... losing a lawsuit with fraud related allegations would almost certainly finish Dwoola at this stage. Even a potential of such lawsuit probably devalues Dwoola already.

Here is an idea for TH: sue Dwoola and take 70% of their equity as settlement.

[Newton]

Who cares about VC's sabotaging TH funding efforts. We can fund TH with bitcoins.

BTW... losing a lawsuit with fraud related allegations would almost certainly finish Dwoola at this stage. Even a potential of such lawsuit probably devalues Dwoola already.

Here is an idea for TH: sue Dwoola and take 70% of their equity as settlement.

That brings up an interesting idea.  If the bitcoin volume is really as significant a percentage of Dwolla's revenue as some suggest, why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?  If bitcoins are a large part of their revenue, it could be a profitable investment even with a significant loan.

A USD exchange needs something like Dwolla's existing infrastructure to take in cash efficiently for the mass market, and they probably make a larger profit per dollar moved than Dwolla does.

[enmaku]

That brings up an interesting idea.  If the bitcoin volume is really as significant a percentage of Dwolla's revenue as some suggest, why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?  If bitcoins are a large part of their revenue, it could be a profitable investment even with a significant loan.

A USD exchange needs something like Dwolla's existing infrastructure to take in cash efficiently for the mass market, and they probably make a larger profit per dollar moved than Dwolla does.

Mt Gox buying Dwolla = instant monopoly...

[the founder]

That brings up an interesting idea.  If the bitcoin volume is really as significant a percentage of Dwolla's revenue as some suggest, why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?  If bitcoins are a large part of their revenue, it could be a profitable investment even with a significant loan.

A USD exchange needs something like Dwolla's existing infrastructure to take in cash efficiently for the mass market, and they probably make a larger profit per dollar moved than Dwolla does.

Mt Gox buying Dwolla = instant monopoly...

Not even close.

[enmaku]

That brings up an interesting idea.  If the bitcoin volume is really as significant a percentage of Dwolla's revenue as some suggest, why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?  If bitcoins are a large part of their revenue, it could be a profitable investment even with a significant loan.

A USD exchange needs something like Dwolla's existing infrastructure to take in cash efficiently for the mass market, and they probably make a larger profit per dollar moved than Dwolla does.

Mt Gox buying Dwolla = instant monopoly...

Not even close.

Tradehill is the biggest MtGox competitor for USD trades and it has 7.8% of Mt Gox's volume. Also, for moving USD into and out of exchanges, Dwolla is the standard right now. Perhaps the EUR or PLN markets would still thrive elsewhere but for USD trades, MtGox + Dwolla accounts for the vast majority of the market. How exactly would such a merger be "Not even close"?

[Viceroy]

That brings up an interesting idea.  If the bitcoin volume is really as significant a percentage of Dwolla's revenue as some suggest, why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?  If bitcoins are a large part of their revenue, it could be a profitable investment even with a significant loan.

A USD exchange needs something like Dwolla's existing infrastructure to take in cash efficiently for the mass market, and they probably make a larger profit per dollar moved than Dwolla does.

Mt Gox buying Dwolla = instant monopoly...

Not even close.

* Viceroy looks at the self promoting thread hijacker

[indio007]

I think insurance is the missing ingredient here. It could be limited to large transactions. you could even make it optional. If you don't get the insurance you waive the exchange from liability.

There are plenty of ways to manage the risk.

[becoin]

why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?

What for? Bitcoin businesses were interested in Dwolla only because of their "no chargeback" policy! Now it is quite clear they do not have such a technology or know-how in place. So, they are not attractive anymore.

[Smalleyster]

The opportunity is to *replace* dwolla with a service that keeps its word. All they are is a webite using the ACH system. Pretty simple stuff really.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?

What for? Bitcoin businesses were interested in Dwolla only because of their "no chargeback" policy! Now it is quite clear they do not have such a technology or know-how in place. So, they are not attractive anymore.

We're now using Paxum at TradeHill which has more fraud protection in place. It doesn't have all the same peer to peer features that Dwolla does but allows payments similar to Paypal. It can be funded in a similar way with a few additional options like checks and wires.   It will also allow you to withdraw funds from an ATM or with a debit card.

For more information go to www.tradehillblog.com or www.paxum.com

The opportunity is to *replace* dwolla with a service that keeps its word. All they are is a webite using the ACH system. Pretty simple stuff really.

We feel confident that Paxum will. They've been in business a lot longer.

Jered

[Newton]

why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?

What for? Bitcoin businesses were interested in Dwolla only because of their "no chargeback" policy! Now it is quite clear they do not have such a technology or know-how in place. So, they are not attractive anymore.

How do you make USD cash payments to purchase bitcoins?  I don't think a bank wire is very appealing to the mass market (which is precisely why bitcoins have a future).

I have a paypal account directly linked to debit my bank account.  When I buy from Newegg, I can pay instantly with just a username and password, without having to put a credit card number online.  You have to admit this is very convenient for the mass market.

Dwolla certainly does have many advantages beyond the no chargeback policy.

- $0.25 per transaction
- Infrastructure and relation already built with banks
- Convenient and easy USD deposit method for mass market

In Canada, Cavirtex allows online bill payment or email money transfer, so the problem is pretty much solved (although still much slower and less convenient than paypal, for many users).

[enmaku]

why couldn't a bitcoin business buy Dwolla?

What for? Bitcoin businesses were interested in Dwolla only because of their "no chargeback" policy! Now it is quite clear they do not have such a technology or know-how in place. So, they are not attractive anymore.

We're now using Paxum at TradeHill which has more fraud protection in place. It doesn't have all the same peer to peer features that Dwolla does but allows payments similar to Paypal. It can be funded in a similar way with a few additional options like checks and wires.   It will also allow you to withdraw funds from an ATM or with a debit card.

For more information go to www.tradehillblog.com or www.paxum.com

The opportunity is to *replace* dwolla with a service that keeps its word. All they are is a webite using the ACH system. Pretty simple stuff really.

We feel confident that Paxum will. They've been in business a lot longer.

Jered

From Paxum's web site, main page:

Transaction   Personal Account   Business Account
ATM Withdrawal   $2.00   $2.00
Peer to Peer   $0.25   $1.00
Wire Transfer   $50   $50

Granted you'd have a visa/mastercard that you can use to spend money from your Paxum account, but $50 is a bit much to move cash from one place to another.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

[

From Paxum's web site, main page:

Transaction   Personal Account   Business Account
ATM Withdrawal   $2.00   $2.00
Peer to Peer   $0.25   $1.00
Wire Transfer   $50   $50

Granted you'd have a visa/mastercard that you can use to spend money from your Paxum account, but $50 is a bit much to move cash from one place to another.

From their fee page https://www.paxum.com/payment/fees.php?view=views/fees.xsl

Loading Funds By ACH $5.00


Jered

[Enochian]

The opportunity is to *replace* dwolla with a service that keeps its word. All they are is a webite using the ACH system. Pretty simple stuff really.

Dwolla is kind of misrepresenting what they can do if they advertise non-reversible transactions and use ACH.

Federal law requires banks to make funds available from reasonably sized deposits within three days, but the interbank clearing period is 14 days, after which, absent extreme circumstances, the transaction can no longer be reversed.

We're all familiar with the scam where a Nigerian sends someone a "Cashier's Check" and tells them to deposit it and wait for it to "clear", and then wire them a percentage of the money.  They wire funds from their account, only to find a large negative balance a week later .

It's not unreasonable for Dwolla to uncredit funds where a bank transfer to them is later reversed.  It is unreasonable for them to advertise the transaction as "final" before they have "good funds" from the person sending the money.

This is a case, as the old saying goes, of "the mouth writing a check the ass can't cash."

[enmaku]

[

From Paxum's web site, main page:

Transaction   Personal Account   Business Account
ATM Withdrawal   $2.00   $2.00
Peer to Peer   $0.25   $1.00
Wire Transfer   $50   $50

Granted you'd have a visa/mastercard that you can use to spend money from your Paxum account, but $50 is a bit much to move cash from one place to another.

From their fee page https://www.paxum.com/payment/fees.php?view=views/fees.xsl

Loading Funds By ACH $5.00


Jered

Hadn't noticed that, I stand corrected. It's still a pretty big fee increase from Dwolla but if they can't get their act together and fix this nonsense I'll take it.

[Smalleyster]

New non-reply email just hit the box:

Dwolla Support
JUL 28, 2011  |  01:25PM CDT
David,

Thank you for your inquiry. If you have any questions about Dwolla or about any of our processes please do not hesitate to ask. We would be happy to explain the system. Due to privacy standards we can not provide information about other users or merchants but would be happy to answer any question you have about Dwolla or your account.

David
JUL 27, 2011  |  06:19PM CDT
When will you refund TradeHill's money?

When will you announce in public what you have done and why?

Thank you
********** note; there are other non-replys that I trimmed bc already posted

[Vladimir]

Just strike a deal with one/many of many low cost wire transfer/exchange players like xe.com. Pass the discount to customers. Here you go, problem solved. There still will be some fees but much more reasonable than what banks charge. Probably not suitable for sending 20$ but for 500$+ it would do.