Idea on how to prevent merit abusing

[Slava79]

Hi all. I was reading about all the merit related topics for some time, for the obvious reason.

I found there is such a thing as merit abuse, when highly merited users create alt accounts and give them merit, trade merit or exchange merit back and forth.

Wouldn't it be cool to treat merit as a sort-of-currency and a "meriting" as a transaction which requires some fee? Say, to give 10 merit you need to pay 1 merit fee and this fee is going to be destroyed?

What you think guys?

[Talk merit]

Surprisingly the concept of merit awards is to award merit for quality posting. It is not an indication of wealth, or the ability to spend any credit.

The next stage would be fractional reserve merit awards. If you have one sMerit, you would be allowed to award 10 new sMerits.

[SM23031997]

Hi all. I was reading about all the merit related topics for some time, for the obvious reason.

I found there is such a thing as merit abuse, when highly merited users create alt accounts and give them merit, trade merit or exchange merit back and forth.

Wouldn't it be cool to treat merit as a sort-of-currency and a "meriting" as a transaction which requires some fee? Say, to give 10 merit you need to pay 1 merit fee and this fee is going to be destroyed?

What you think guys?

The current merit system is good and it will be much more effective with time as the number of merit sources increase. Merit point should not be used as currency as it will lead to more offenders.

[Slava79]

Surprisingly the concept of merit awards is to award merit for quality posting. It is not an indication of wealth, or the ability to spend any credit.

Yes, but if only everyone would follow the rules. Introducing currency-like property to merit would prevent gaming the system, it would just become too expensive. Exactly like PoS works, right?

[TMAN]

Hi all. I was reading about all the merit related topics for some time, for the obvious reason.

I found there is such a thing as merit abuse, when highly merited users create alt accounts and give them merit, trade merit or exchange merit back and forth.

Wouldn't it be cool to treat merit as a sort-of-currency and a "meriting" as a transaction which requires some fee? Say, to give 10 merit you need to pay 1 merit fee and this fee is going to be destroyed?

What you think guys?

merit gets destroyed, give 10 merits and the receiver only has 5 sMerits to send.. I would suggest you read up on any one of the numerous threads regarding merit before you comment about merit again.

[Slava79]

merit gets destroyed, give 10 merits and the receiver only has 5 sMerits to send.. I would suggest you read up on any one of the numerous threads regarding merit before you comment about merit again.

I was writing about making it expensive to send merit, not about restriction on how much you can send after receiving. But anyway, thank you for you suggestion and your comments here, I appreciate it.

[hilariousetc]

There is already a 'fee' built into the system. If you send 1 merit to a user they only have 0.5 so they need two merits to be able to send one, thus they will run out of merits pretty quickly. There's nothing you can really do to prevent abuse other than punish those who are caught doing so. If you decide to try cheat they system it's a very big risk because if caught your account will be tagged and ruined, thus it is better to just try earn merit naturally.

[Taki]

There are many schemes which is working now and people who involved in that got punished. This, what you are suggesting, is one more way to abuse merit system. Nothing is going to be changed about merit system, besides the punishment for users who abuse it or taking part in different kinds of schemes will be punished more serious. For now it is red trust, if you do not know.

[Tyrantt]

There's no need for that, they can give themselves merit as much as they want to. Also, if you know that this is happening, then you must have some proof, so instead of trying to come up with something just report them and all that traded merit is in vain then (when they're flagged)

that's not gonna work, if that's gonna happen you rarely seeing people giving merit to others.

Not necessarily, they'd just have to give out more merit to cover the fee and then they'd just run out of merit faster.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Though I like the spirit behind this idea, I don't think it's necessary and I'm not sure it would help.

Given enough time--and merit sources awarding merit to good users, ones who aren't merit farmers--this problem should take care of itself.  The merits sent back and forth between alt accounts of idiots & merit dealers should eventually run out, leaving them and the forum as a whole with less over time.

Aside from that, I'm pretty sure that when Theymos rolled out the merit system in January, it was pretty well-thought out and he's probably not going to be tweaking it anytime soon.  We're still early on with this feature, so the verdict isn't in whether it's a failure or not.  So far it doesn't seem to have caused a pullback on shitposts (I continue to see a lot of them), but users who make them don't seem to be earning much merit and hence they won't rank up.  That removes a lot of the financial incentive for them to continue to make them.  Right now, that's good enough for me.

[marlboroza]

Though I like the spirit behind this idea, I don't think it's necessary and I'm not sure it would help.

Given enough time--and merit sources awarding merit to good users, ones who aren't merit farmers--this problem should take care of itself.  The merits sent back and forth between alt accounts of idiots & merit dealers should eventually run out, leaving them and the forum as a whole with less over time.

Aside from that, I'm pretty sure that when Theymos rolled out the merit system in January, it was pretty well-thought out and he's probably not going to be tweaking it anytime soon.  We're still early on with this feature, so the verdict isn't in whether it's a failure or not.  So far it doesn't seem to have caused a pullback on shitposts (I continue to see a lot of them), but users who make them don't seem to be earning much merit and hence they won't rank up.  That removes a lot of the financial incentive for them to continue to make them.  Right now, that's good enough for me.

Dude, they don't care.
I pointed somewhere that bunch of junior member (alt)accounts earned $100K(no, I didn't make mistake, one hundred thousand dollars) for a month of posting cheating only 1(yes, one) bounty campaign.

I would not call them idiots, whoever can make 100,000$ in a month is definitely not an idiot.
Let me put it this way: Someone pays good member 300$ for 30 days promotion. Idiot is payed...50000$ for a month for signature.

So, third world shitposter earned 50000$ in a month, and first world great poster has earned...300$.

You are good person, but you are naive. Don't get me wrong, please.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You are good person, but you are naive.

Thank you for the first part of that.  And I don't doubt the second part for a minute.  You're not even the first person among the people I get along with here who's told me I'm naive, so there's probably truth to it which I'll ponder.  

I believe in cleaning my own house first, so I'll be happy with the max of 0.0375BTC per week I can earn in Chipmixer, and I'm very thankful that I was accepted into it.  Those fuckbags who are making that kind of dough I can't really control though, can I?  If the forum allows it and doesn't want shitposters tagged, or merit abusers, what can I do?  If you've got suggestions I'll be more than happy to listen.

I call them "idiots" because I don't respect them.  That's just the first thing that comes to mind.  I realize they may not necessarily be stupid human beings, though there's certainly plenty of that here too.

Edit:  BTW, are you telling me I should be even more cynical and pissed off about the state of bitcointalk?  I'm not sure that's even possible at this point.

Edit2:

@Pharma don't forget to link negative trust to reference link, without link or proof it is just a word 

I just redid it, thank you.  Not sure how I missed it in the first place, but now I made the neg longer and more vitriolic.

[marlboroza]

If the forum allows it and doesn't want shitposters tagged

It is moderators job.
DT should tag scammers, not spammers. You are wasting your time (giving neutral tag which no one is looking at) for nothing.

merit abusers

Tag them, please. But only if you have solid proof that they are abusing merit.

If you've got suggestions I'll be more than happy to listen.

Don't listen to me, I am...

turning into Quicksy and developing an unhealthy paranoia

edit*

Edit:  BTW, are you telling me I should be even more cynical and pissed off about the state of bitcointalk?  I'm not sure that's even possible at this point.

Cynical? Not at all, it is your style.
Pissed off? Yeah, calm down. Stress is causing cancer. Think about your health  

[nlcars]

You are good person, but you are naive.

Thank you for the first part of that.  And I don't doubt the second part for a minute.  You're not even the first person among the people I get along with here who's told me I'm naive, so there's probably truth to it which I'll ponder.  

I believe in cleaning my own house first, so I'll be happy with the max of 0.0375BTC per week I can earn in Chipmixer, and I'm very thankful that I was accepted into it.  Those fuckbags who are making that kind of dough I can't really control though, can I?  If the forum allows it and doesn't want shitposters tagged, or merit abusers, what can I do?  If you've got suggestions I'll be more than happy to listen.

I call them "idiots" because I don't respect them.  That's just the first thing that comes to mind.  I realize they may not necessarily be stupid human beings, though there's certainly plenty of that here too.

Edit:  BTW, are you telling me I should be even more cynical and pissed off about the state of bitcointalk?  I'm not sure that's even possible at this point.

THE PHARMACIST IS ABUSING THE MERRIT SYSTEM HIMSELF AND IS POINTING TO OTHERS AND GIVES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, PLEASE CHECK MY MERRITS AND HIS, YOU CAN SEE HE IS TRADING WITH MERRITS, SEVERAL TIMES MERRITS ARE SENT ON AN OVER AGAIN BETWEEN  A FEW MEMBERS AND HE IS GIVING ME NEGATIVE FEEDBACK AND I ONLY HAVE 22 MERRITS !

[marlboroza]

~
THE PHARMACIST IS ABUSING THE MERRIT SYSTEM HIMSELF AND IS POINTING TO OTHERS AND GIVES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, PLEASE CHECK MY MERRITS AND HIS, YOU CAN SEE HE IS TRADING WITH MERRITS, SEVERAL TIMES MERRITS ARE SENT ON AN OVER AGAIN BETWEEN  A FEW MEMBERS AND HE IS GIVING ME NEGATIVE FEEDBACK AND I ONLY HAVE 22 MERRITS !

@Pharma don't forget to link negative trust to reference link, without link or proof it is just a word 

@nlcars I AM DRUNK. GOING TO BED. C U T O M O R O W.

[nlcars]

~
THE PHARMACIST IS ABUSING THE MERRIT SYSTEM HIMSELF AND IS POINTING TO OTHERS AND GIVES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, PLEASE CHECK MY MERRITS AND HIS, YOU CAN SEE HE IS TRADING WITH MERRITS, SEVERAL TIMES MERRITS ARE SENT ON AN OVER AGAIN BETWEEN  A FEW MEMBERS AND HE IS GIVING ME NEGATIVE FEEDBACK AND I ONLY HAVE 22 MERRITS !

@Pharma don't forget to link negative trust to reference link, without link or proof it is just a word 

@nlcars I AM DRUNK. GOING TO BED. C U T O M O R O W.

I am not accusing him without a proof. I have explained to him what the reason is in a private message but he has blocked me. I only asked him to remove my negative trust.
I have made a simple investigation on his profile, he has a lot of merrits but they are trading merrits very sophisticated.

THE PHARMASIST:
JET CASH SENT 6 RECIEVED 4
TMAN SENT 8 RECIEVED 14
DIGARAN - SENT 4 RECIEVED 3
NULLIUS - SENT 13 RECIEVED 5

There are several friend accounts they give merrits to the same people the pharmasist gives.
I am only ask a simple thing, and that is to be honoust and Honorable


 

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I have explained to him what the reason is in a private message but he has blocked me.

The following is what you sent me:

Why do you sent me a negative trust?
I have only 22 merrits and you have more than 1000 ? Why do you do this.
Please remove my negative trust

IF I WAS ABUSING THE MERRIT SYSTEM I HAD NOT 22 MERRITS !!!

Why do you sent me a negative trust?
I have only 22 merrits and you have more than 1000 ? Why do you do this.
Please remove my negative trust

with best regards,

NLcar

I asked you something, if you are a man than you give answer !!! Why ARE YOU GIVING ME NEGATIVE TRUST YOU FUCKING IDIOT I HAVE ONLY 22 MERRITS AND YOU MORE THAN 1000 DO YOU WANT ME TO SET A WAR WITH YOU ?

PLEASE REMOVE MY NEGATIVE TRUST

My answer is this:  You are an obvious shitposter; are probably an alt of Zandar; and you're obviously abusing the merit system with him.  There would be no other reason someone would leave you merits unless it was an alt, or a "friend", or was otherwise being traded  Same thing with the Zandar account.  In fact, Zandar says you two are friends in real life here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3162720.msg32983811#msg32983811, so it probably really is a buddy of your you're trading merits with--and not because the posts are merit-worthy.  Hence, my feedback.

If you think TMAN, Jet Cash, Foxpup, digaran, nullius, or anyone else is an alt (or a friend) of mine, you are free to leave a negative as you see fit and I won't complain about it in the least.  But I'll be the honest one here and say that I don't know any of them in real life and that there was absolutely no talk, arrangement, deal, or anything else between myself and anyone whom I've given or received merit from.  

I have respect for these users, and I tend to like what they say.  End of story.  We travel in the same circles on bitcointalk, but my given and received merits are not a case of friends "helping out" one another; nor are we shitposters; nor am I, at least, getting any benefit by receiving merits.  There's no more ranking up for me, and I've made it clear that I'm making it a point to hand out sMerits to lower-ranked users.  I've given out a lot, and the vast majority did not go to any of those users mentioned.

[motienvolam]

~

Hello dude,

What are you talking about? Are you mad?
The Pharmacist, TMAN, Jet Cash, Diagran, Nullius are one of the most famous, active, helpful users in the forum. Nullis is classic case-study about the unbelievable positive effects of merit system on the forum users. This guy has obviously demonstrated that constructive users in the forum can rank up by themselves, legally. They can simply earn lots of merits (hundreds as nullius got) and move up to higher levels in the forum.
If you spend couple of minutes to read Theymos announcement and rules of merit system in the following topic:
Merits and new rank requirements
You will easily realize that you have lot of time to collect merit to rank up for each rank. I agree that it's not easy to earn merits, but don't worry because you have enough span of time to get them.

Let's start contributing to the forum and get merits.
Don't try doing this foolish stuff again, you might be added into their Ignore list.

[Jet Cash]

I have made a simple investigation on his profile, he has a lot of merrits but they are trading merrits very sophisticated.

THE PHARMASIST:
JET CASH SENT 6 RECIEVED 4
 

The Pharmasist is a very active and valuable member of the forum. He has made may excellent posts, and the surprise in the above statement is not that I have awarded 6 points to him, but that it is ONLY 6 points. I have awarded well over 200 points, and 6 is hardly significant. I have been awarded 270 merits, and again the award of 4 is hardly grounds for suspicion. I don't know the Pharmasist, either on or off the board, and our paths don't cross very often here, He seems to be more active in the areas of trust and the monitoring of bounty campaigns, and those don't interest me, and this probably accounts for the low merit awards between us.

I'm fairly outspoken, and I suspect that some members have investigated me as a result of my merit abusers page. Were I to misuse the merits I have, then I suspect it would be posted on this board. In fact this thread promoted me to check my trust rating, and |I was surprised to see this entry.

Vod   2018-03-11   0.00000000      A good promoter on the new merit system

Thanks Vod for the kind words.

I think the comment by nicars illustrates the malaise that has crept onto the board, and I think that all these merit whingers have a real life equivalent. They are like beggars standing outside the supermarket, and annoying shoppers by asking for food.  When they have eaten the food, they discard the wrappers and plastic bottles around the carpark, and they have no thought for the pollution and the work they create. They then complain because the council does not pay them for their " artwork", which most people see as a selfish and inconsiderate nuisance.


[edit] and I have put nicars on ignore.

[nlcars]

I have explained to him what the reason is in a private message but he has blocked me.

The following is what you sent me:

Why do you sent me a negative trust?
I have only 22 merrits and you have more than 1000 ? Why do you do this.
Please remove my negative trust

IF I WAS ABUSING THE MERRIT SYSTEM I HAD NOT 22 MERRITS !!!

Why do you sent me a negative trust?
I have only 22 merrits and you have more than 1000 ? Why do you do this.
Please remove my negative trust

with best regards,

NLcar

I asked you something, if you are a man than you give answer !!! Why ARE YOU GIVING ME NEGATIVE TRUST YOU FUCKING IDIOT I HAVE ONLY 22 MERRITS AND YOU MORE THAN 1000 DO YOU WANT ME TO SET A WAR WITH YOU ?

PLEASE REMOVE MY NEGATIVE TRUST

My answer is this:  You are an obvious shitposter; are probably an alt of Zandar; and you're obviously abusing the merit system with him.  There would be no other reason someone would leave you merits unless it was an alt, or a "friend", or was otherwise being traded  Same thing with the Zandar account.  In fact, Zandar says you two are friends in real life here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3162720.msg32983811#msg32983811, so it probably really is a buddy of your you're trading merits with--and not because the posts are merit-worthy.  Hence, my feedback.

If you think TMAN, Jet Cash, Foxpup, digaran, nullius, or anyone else is an alt (or a friend) of mine, you are free to leave a negative as you see fit and I won't complain about it in the least.  But I'll be the honest one here and say that I don't know any of them in real life and that there was absolutely no talk, arrangement, deal, or anything else between myself and anyone whom I've given or received merit from.  

I have respect for these users, and I tend to like what they say.  End of story.  We travel in the same circles on bitcointalk, but my given and received merits are not a case of friends "helping out" one another; nor are we shitposters; nor am I, at least, getting any benefit by receiving merits.  There's no more ranking up for me, and I've made it clear that I'm making it a point to hand out sMerits to lower-ranked users.  I've given out a lot, and the vast majority did not go to any of those users mentioned.

OBVIOUSLY YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE POWER AND THE RIGHT TO DO EVERYTHING YOU WANT BECAUSE YOU REGISTERED FAR BEFORE THE MERRIT SYSTEM.
You think you are a god in this forum, but I have found many suspicious behaviors from you regarding the merrit system.

YOU ARE ACCUSING ZANDAR IS AN ALT, PLEASE I AM ASKING MODERATORS AND ADMINS TO INVESTIGATE IT !!
YOU HAVE GOT MORE MERRITS FROM YOUR FRIENDS AND OVER THAN I GOT MERRITS IN TOTAL MY FRIEND

AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WITH YOUR OTHER ALTS CONTROLLING THIS FORUM, I HAVE TRACKED YOUR ALT.

SO BEFORE YOU ACCUSE SOMEONE, LOOK AT THE MIRROR YOU ARE VERY BAD YOURSELF