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Author Topic: We are making the same mistake again.  (Read 3200 times)
spooderman
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October 31, 2013, 01:07:04 PM
 #1

Bitcoin is to money what the internet was to communication.

I don't need to remind everyone how great the internet is, but we all know the terrible things it has facilitated. It has been us walking into a police state. The internet was not designed with anonymity in mind. We are trying to develop privacy protecting elements within it, but we have not got very far. The internet helped us overcome the almost monopoly on information held by institutions that were manipulated by the few. It caught dictators off guard. It was wonderful.

In the same vein, BTC was not designed with anonymity in mind, it was designed to take money out of the control of banks, which it does so wonderfully, but as with the internet, hands our information to the upper tier in our society that have access to our information. BTC is described as anonymous, but after a little analysis, we see that this is not true. And within the closed system the bitcoin is, it will become steadily less anonymous every time a transaction is carried out. It will allow something cash could never allow, complete financial surveillance. This is us walking into a yet more sinister police state.

I don't understand the ins and outs of bitcoin, just like most people don't really know how the internet works. All that most intelligent people (myself not necessarily included in that,) have managed to ascertain is that if you do something online, you should NEVER have an expectation of privacy, because, despite what the policy of said website/server/isp might be, you will end up disappointed, and whoever had the most paranoid attitude will ultimately turn out to be correct.

Can this be a question of priorities? Banks are bad, I would love to supersede them. Privacy however is good, we need this in order to ever effect any social change. We all know this having realised that the "nothing to hide" argument is invalid. (I'm not going to explain why here, if you think that you have "nothing to hide" please post the password to your bitcoin wallet underneath this post before disagreeing with me).

Do we want to destroy our privacy in order to disrupt our current financial system?

Is it possible we can learn from the internet, and not make the mistake of creating something with such a revealing infrastructure? I do not understand "zerocoin" or the other allegedly anonymous cryptocoins. However, if they are anonymous, I would wager we solve two problems rather than one. The larger, and more important problem in my mind being the lack of anonymity.

Society doesn't scale.
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spooderman
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October 31, 2013, 01:10:34 PM
 #2

TL;DR

The internet was great, but was us sleepwalking into a police state. Let's not do the same with cryptocurrency.

Society doesn't scale.
genjix
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October 31, 2013, 01:22:57 PM
 #3

TL;DR

The internet was great, but was us sleepwalking into a police state. Let's not do the same with cryptocurrency.

The choice is yours,

http://darkwallet.unsystem.net/

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitcoin-dark-wallet

Support us.
BitcoinBarrel
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October 31, 2013, 01:33:14 PM
 #4

That's why I like the Casascius Coins and paper wallets so much. You don't have to be connected to the internet to use Bitcoin. The infastructure just adds a level of security that the Bitcoins really exist.



        ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
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 ███████████████████████
▐███████████████████████
▐███████████████████████
▐███████████████████████
▐███████████████████████
 ██████████████████████▀
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balanghai
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October 31, 2013, 01:43:19 PM
 #5

Security measures and habbits should be changed in the coming months if one wants to be really appear off grid.
KenKaniff
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October 31, 2013, 02:38:41 PM
 #6

.

allthingsluxury
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October 31, 2013, 03:15:39 PM
 #7

TL;DR

The internet was great, but was us sleepwalking into a police state. Let's not do the same with cryptocurrency.

The choice is yours,

http://darkwallet.unsystem.net/

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitcoin-dark-wallet

Support us.

Very interesting project.

spooderman
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October 31, 2013, 03:28:20 PM
 #8

TL;DR

The internet was great, but was us sleepwalking into a police state. Let's not do the same with cryptocurrency.

The choice is yours,

http://darkwallet.unsystem.net/

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitcoin-dark-wallet

Support us.

thank you very much. This, or something like this, is the future. BTC is about 1% of the battle. Anonymity is the other 99%.

Society doesn't scale.
Rygon
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October 31, 2013, 07:31:21 PM
 #9

I don't understand why the project needs to raise $50,000. What are the expenses for? Is it for setting up prototype networks? Living expenses?

Furthermore, is there a link to a more technical description of the theory behind making coins more anonymous without having to trust a third party? I understand it has something to do with running another network within (or in conjunction with) the bitcoin network, but there has to be a cost or additional risk to doing this.
MPOE-PR
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October 31, 2013, 09:08:03 PM
 #10

BTC is described as anonymous, but after a little analysis, we see that this is not true.

Bitcoin is not anonymous. It's pseudo-anonymous:

Quote
This latter one is particularly problematic because of the very nature of Bitcoin itself. You really want an anonymous currency ? Well guess what, that necessarily means you can’t do business. You can’t do insurance in BTC, currently, for the simple reason that you have no practical way of knowing the insured isn’t betting against himself (which could eventually end up with the dreadful scenario of him making more money by failing than by succeeding).

Fortunately Satoshi was at least an inkling wiser than the large troop of monkeys populating the BTC forums and imagining they’re constituting “the community” on the strength of their ignominious absence from the WoT, their flat inability to use PGP in any implementation and their collected assets of almost twenty whole Bitcoins if we count all the wallets they’ve meanwhile accidentally lost. Consequently, Bitcoin is not anonymous. It’s pseudonymous, which is quite a different thing altogether.

Moreover, privacy and anonymity are different things, and most people have no need for anonymity anyway. You'll have to ensure your own privacy to the degree you're after as well as the degree you can, and that latter comes down to correctly using the correct tools (including thinking about it) rather than being oppressed by "the system", whatever's at the helm.

Perfectly healthy to be pondering this stuff, though, of course.

I don't understand the ins and outs of bitcoin

Remedying that would be a good idea, as would be learning how to use GPG, as would be piling on the reading.


STFU and go away. You're the most idiotic piece of shit Bitcoin ever stepped in.

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spooderman
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October 31, 2013, 09:39:08 PM
 #11

BTC is described as anonymous, but after a little analysis, we see that this is not true.

Bitcoin is not anonymous. It's pseudo-anonymous:

Quote
This latter one is particularly problematic because of the very nature of Bitcoin itself. You really want an anonymous currency ? Well guess what, that necessarily means you can’t do business. You can’t do insurance in BTC, currently, for the simple reason that you have no practical way of knowing the insured isn’t betting against himself (which could eventually end up with the dreadful scenario of him making more money by failing than by succeeding).

Fortunately Satoshi was at least an inkling wiser than the large troop of monkeys populating the BTC forums and imagining they’re constituting “the community” on the strength of their ignominious absence from the WoT, their flat inability to use PGP in any implementation and their collected assets of almost twenty whole Bitcoins if we count all the wallets they’ve meanwhile accidentally lost. Consequently, Bitcoin is not anonymous. It’s pseudonymous, which is quite a different thing altogether.

Moreover, privacy and anonymity are different things, and most people have no need for anonymity anyway. You'll have to ensure your own privacy to the degree you're after as well as the degree you can, and that latter comes down to correctly using the correct tools (including thinking about it) rather than being oppressed by "the system", whatever's at the helm.

Perfectly healthy to be pondering this stuff, though, of course.

I don't understand the ins and outs of bitcoin

Remedying that would be a good idea, as would be learning how to use GPG, as would be piling on the reading.


STFU and go away. You're the most idiotic piece of shit Bitcoin ever stepped in.

wow wish I'd started reading your comment from the end (I would've stopped there.) Why so unpleasant?

At the risk of feeding a troll, I will say I understand a lot more about bitcoin than most people, but I like to downplay my knowledge, as I am aware there are plenty who understand bitcoin a lot better than me Smiley

Society doesn't scale.
ralree
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November 01, 2013, 06:14:04 AM
 #12

Although I understand the need some people have for complete anonymity and privacy when using bitcoin, the payment methods I currently use (banking and credit cards) have none of those features, and this doesn't bother me at all.  Bitcoin's utility for me is much less about anonymity and much more about security and transferability.  If I was so concerned about my privacy in anything financial, I would use cash instead of banking and credit cards.  I pay my taxes, including on bitcoin receipts (because in my country, you're required to).  I pay capital gains tax on bitcoin gains as well for the same reason, and write off the losses.  I could say I have nothing to hide, and indeed that is true, so I'm willing to trade some level of privacy (people looking at my transactions in the blockchain) for convenience.  Whether one wants to do this is a personal choice, and should continue to be.

I've read about zerocoin, and I think it can be a great complement to bitcoin when someone desires true anonymity.  I think intentionally using mixers is too close to money laundering for my comfort (putting your bitcoin into the mixer is a public action that is not anonymous), and I have a feeling in the coming years governments will clarify the legal implications of using these services.  The Dark Wallet trustless mixing is an interesting idea, and I'm not sure exactly how that works yet, so I'll evaluate that as I learn more.  

If you want to use bitcoin anonymously without mixing, buy bitcoins face-to-face (or better yet, mine them) in small lots, send them to unused new addresses when purchasing, and only use the addresses once or twice before abandoning them completely.  This usage takes a little effort, but it's the price of anonymity without relying on anything but bitcoin and yourself.  It will be interesting to see what new ideas come out in this category in the coming years.

1MANaTeEZoH4YkgMYz61E5y4s9BYhAuUjG
spooderman
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November 01, 2013, 10:15:07 AM
 #13

Although I understand the need some people have for complete anonymity and privacy when using bitcoin, the payment methods I currently use (banking and credit cards) have none of those features, and this doesn't bother me at all.  Bitcoin's utility for me is much less about anonymity and much more about security and transferability.  If I was so concerned about my privacy in anything financial, I would use cash instead of banking and credit cards.  I pay my taxes, including on bitcoin receipts (because in my country, you're required to).  I pay capital gains tax on bitcoin gains as well for the same reason, and write off the losses.  I could say I have nothing to hide, and indeed that is true, so I'm willing to trade some level of privacy (people looking at my transactions in the blockchain) for convenience.  Whether one wants to do this is a personal choice, and should continue to be.

I've read about zerocoin, and I think it can be a great complement to bitcoin when someone desires true anonymity.  I think intentionally using mixers is too close to money laundering for my comfort (putting your bitcoin into the mixer is a public action that is not anonymous), and I have a feeling in the coming years governments will clarify the legal implications of using these services.  The Dark Wallet trustless mixing is an interesting idea, and I'm not sure exactly how that works yet, so I'll evaluate that as I learn more.  

If you want to use bitcoin anonymously without mixing, buy bitcoins face-to-face (or better yet, mine them) in small lots, send them to unused new addresses when purchasing, and only use the addresses once or twice before abandoning them completely.  This usage takes a little effort, but it's the price of anonymity without relying on anything but bitcoin and yourself.  It will be interesting to see what new ideas come out in this category in the coming years.

Thanks for the info. I agree with the main utilities being security and transferability.

Society doesn't scale.
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November 01, 2013, 08:01:17 PM
 #14

Amir really isn't the best spokesperson for Bitcoin. Everytime I see his interviews on RT I sigh.
He so repetitive with information and never clearly answers question and if he does attempt to answer them
he comes up with some other shit and or dodges the question all together. He clearly isn't the best person to question when it comes to the complexities of Bitcon but RT seems to be in love with the guy. I don't if they just want to get a good laugh or ruin Bitcoin's image.

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November 01, 2013, 08:19:42 PM
 #15

I dont like the lack of anonimity in bitcoin either - Thats why wee need to implement ZeroCoin or something like it in the bitcoin protocol.
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November 01, 2013, 08:56:29 PM
 #16

If bitcoin is used like cash it is as anonymous as cash.  If you go buy a gold coin for cash but got the cash at your bank it is exactly the same as buying BTC on an exchange and going to buy in person for BTC.  One transaction is pretty anon and the other not so much.  The benefit of bitcoin is that it is both usable in a hand to hand cash scenario and online.  Blockchain.info has mixing services and even trustless mixing.  A secret is only a secret if one person knows it.  There is no true anonymity in transaction since two parties are involved it's just levels of privacy.
spooderman
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November 01, 2013, 09:08:23 PM
 #17

There is no true anonymity in transaction since two parties are involved it's just levels of privacy.

that is an interesting point. Is it watertight? Is it necessarily impossible to send money to a bitcoin address and receive a good anonymously?


Society doesn't scale.
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November 01, 2013, 10:52:52 PM
 #18

There is no true anonymity in transaction since two parties are involved it's just levels of privacy.

that is an interesting point. Is it watertight? Is it necessarily impossible to send money to a bitcoin address and receive a good anonymously?



I'd imagine so, unless we're talking about other digital goods. (And that just might be the key to the whole issue....)

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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November 01, 2013, 11:06:58 PM
 #19

There is no true anonymity in transaction since two parties are involved it's just levels of privacy.

that is an interesting point. Is it watertight? Is it necessarily impossible to send money to a bitcoin address and receive a good anonymously?


The other party and anyone they choose to tell knows you have done the transaction.  How much they know about you is privacy level.  At the low end it might only be the goods you bought, a shipping address, and a bitcoin adress.  If it's face to face well then they have seen you.  None of it is anonymous in the sort of magic movie sense most people wish to picture it.  But depending on how you do it deducing your indentity may be very hard.
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November 01, 2013, 11:41:21 PM
 #20

There is no true anonymity in transaction since two parties are involved it's just levels of privacy.

that is an interesting point. Is it watertight? Is it necessarily impossible to send money to a bitcoin address and receive a good anonymously?


The other party and anyone they choose to tell knows you have done the transaction.  How much they know about you is privacy level.  At the low end it might only be the goods you bought, a shipping address, and a bitcoin adress.  If it's face to face well then they have seen you.  None of it is anonymous in the sort of magic movie sense most people wish to picture it.  But depending on how you do it deducing your indentity may be very hard.

Exactly, it can be anonymous in a sense. Your mum goes to pick it up, they received the BTC, so they follow up with their agreement. People participate in an anonymous feedback system. I am very concerned about making things easy for a police state. Bitcoin/cryptocurrency could be the future, I just hope it's not just another tool used by a fascist government. In situations like that it becomes natural to hate the infrastructure that allows for the control a tyrannical state might have, and long for a society with no technology thereby taking their weapon away.

If the technological solution is here that allows us to bypass centralised, easily coercible, morally sanctioned yet violent monopolies, it isn't bitcoin. Bitcoin just bypasses banks. That's a tiny part of what I believe to be the major battle.

edit: maybe I should just be happy with this one step Smiley

Society doesn't scale.
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