philipma1957 (OP)
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March 31, 2018, 01:58:47 PM Last edit: March 31, 2018, 03:32:24 PM by philipma1957 |
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I want to make Metroid wrong he has a thread GPU mining will die in 2018! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2786298.0To all developers of the major money coins here is my idea in a nut shell Here is the deal cpu/gpu developers can crush asics with a 4-6 month built in fork system for their coin. Other then LTC/scrypt and BTC/sha256 no algo has much hashpower so an asic will crush that algo. the defense would be 4-6 month forks and adding a second or third algo say x16r now x20r 4-6 months later x24r 4-6 months later z28r 4-6 months later I have contacted x16r dev on his thread x16r now x18r 4-6 months x20r 4-6 months x22r 4-6 months maybe good enoguh or xmr1 xmr2 xmr3 xmr4 or zec1 zec2 zec3 zec4 or eth1 eth2 eth3 eth4 this would defend cpu/gpu coins from the attack of asics
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rdluffy
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March 31, 2018, 02:26:32 PM |
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Let's support the idea guys or GPUs will really die and BITMAIN will dominate everything, centralization are coming
For RVN and X16r is easy to change the algo or improve, RVN born to fight against Asics
But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything
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PanneKopp
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aka ...
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March 31, 2018, 02:35:05 PM |
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Hi @philipma1957 , miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined. Use case and adoption gives value. PanneKopp
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... please make an educated guess !
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Metroid
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March 31, 2018, 02:37:15 PM |
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say x16r now x20r 4-6 months later x24r 4-6 months later z28r 4-6 months later
They are already talking about your idea. Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •
@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?
I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.
I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant. https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe
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BTC Address: 1DH4ok85VdFAe47fSVXNVctxkFhUv4ujbR
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wheelz1200
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March 31, 2018, 02:55:01 PM |
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Hi @philipma1957 , miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined. Use case and adoption gives value. PanneKopp You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin. He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture. Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.
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TheYankeesWin!
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March 31, 2018, 02:59:24 PM |
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say x16r now x20r 4-6 months later x24r 4-6 months later z28r 4-6 months later
They are already talking about your idea. Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •
@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?
I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.
I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant. https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe Yes but greed is also there for GPU builders and for intel and for mobo builders. So if they simply push for constant forks asics go by by.
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Metroid
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March 31, 2018, 03:00:02 PM |
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It seems the f3 can do 1500 mhs, that is 50 x rx 580.
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BTC Address: 1DH4ok85VdFAe47fSVXNVctxkFhUv4ujbR
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philipma1957 (OP)
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'The right to privacy matters'
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March 31, 2018, 03:02:11 PM |
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Hi @philipma1957 , miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined. Use case and adoption gives value. PanneKopp You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin. He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture. Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto. Yes and what most people do not realize is every home in the world should have a good pc with a good card. [That is my fuck you to Apple iPad and iPhone and no good pc option. which is why I ended up with cryptocoins in the first place] I still propose this and gpu mining becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc. This makes adoption worldwide below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day 1 year later it earned 1460 pretty good rebate and many can go this route we need this it is important https://store.hp.com/us/en/cv/omen-gaming?jumpid=ma_dt_featured_na_2_171115#desktopsOMEN Desktop PC - 880-160se OMEN Desktop PC - 880-160se Edit your configuration HP USB Wired Keyboard with volume control 750 W Platinum efficiency power supply Dual NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1070 8G SLI ODD DVD Writer 9.5mm Tray McAfee Livesafe (30 day) Windows 10 Home OMEN 880se by HP Desktop PC 8th Generation Intel® Core™ i7-8700 WLAN RT 8822 ac 2x2 +BT 4.2LE WW BU ICTO UMA Z370 Office Trial 1 TB HDD storage Black Interior Paint; External 3.5" Bay; Air Cooling Solution (65w Processor) 16 GB NVMe™M.2 SSD with Intel® Optane™ technology 8 GB memory 1 - 25 GB of free online storage for 12 months from date of registration. For complete details and terms of use, including cancellation policies, visit the website at www.dropbox.com. Internet service required and not included. 2 - McAfee LiveSafe 12-month free trial offer (Internet access required. First 12 months included. Subscription required for live updates afterwards.) My shopping links Order status Manage subscriptions Returns & Exchanges Need help? Need help? Contact us now Disclaimer Country/Region : United States About us Contact HP Careers Investor relations Sustainability Press center The Garage Ways to buy Shop online Store locator Call an HP rep Find a reseller Enterprise store Public sector purchasing Support Download drivers Support & troubleshooting Forums Register your product Authorized service providers Check repair status Training & certification Fraud alert HP Partners HP Partner First program HP Partner First Portal Developers Stay connected Sign up for news & offers Submit Recalls|Product recycling|Accessibility|CA Supply Chains Act|Sitemap|Privacy|Cookies & ad choices|Terms of Use|Limited warranty statement|Terms & conditions of sales & service © Copyright 2018 HP Development Company, L.P.
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leonix007
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March 31, 2018, 03:03:26 PM |
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But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything
They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks Hi @philipma1957 ,
miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. It does matter as Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.
And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up
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philipma1957 (OP)
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'The right to privacy matters'
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March 31, 2018, 03:19:18 PM |
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But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything
They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks Hi @philipma1957 ,
miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. It does matter as Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.
And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up See value does come from how it is mined. Think of gaming I was a little too old to ever be a gamer. I predate pong and space invaders. I was a pinball player in the early 70's But if you game a 1080ti system is affordable if you mine while you sleep. Which means world wide adoption of gpu mining at the grassroots level. It must be preserved. I fuck around with Metroid but he called the shot that asic's were attacking gpu mining far earlier then I did. It was a valuable thread he started . The x16r thread has value. and I want this thread to have value I would love to see the x16r developer say right now he will do x20r in 4-6 months with plans for x24r in another 4-6 months after that which fully will fuck asics and of course make the raven coin worth dead solid money. raven dev thread here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2752467.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2752467.msg33607577#msg33607577
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Coffee135
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March 31, 2018, 03:37:12 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
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philipma1957 (OP)
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March 31, 2018, 03:48:39 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
If we don't get enough developers to sign on for this idea cpu and gpu mining does die. If that dies we are fully dependent on Asic's which means centralized mining. I don't dislike centralized mining. My signature mentions BTC as a highway for trucks, bus's , cars, taxi's I am certainly willing to have 'good' highways. But with no one to travel on them they become worthless. It maybe that ETH + BTC + LTC end up as the centralized structure for cryptocoins fine that works only if the other coins are decentralized.
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chrysophylax
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March 31, 2018, 03:57:04 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW. My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one. So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market. What does this mean on an overall level? Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's. I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive. As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is! #crysx
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wheelz1200
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March 31, 2018, 04:07:51 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW. My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one. So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market. What does this mean on an overall level? Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's. I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive. As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is! #crysx Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure. I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network. And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine.
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chrysophylax
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March 31, 2018, 04:10:17 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW. My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one. So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market. What does this mean on an overall level? Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's. I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive. As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is! #crysx Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure. I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network. And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. Wrong ... That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not. If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue. MH or GH, the figures stand. #crysx
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philipma1957 (OP)
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March 31, 2018, 04:17:00 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW. My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one. So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market. What does this mean on an overall level? Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's. I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive. As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is! #crysx Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure. I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network. And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. Wrong ... That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not. If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue. MH or GH, the figures stand. #crysx wrong but tricky to make this wrong Phil16r already has Phil18r Phil20r Phil22r Phil24r developed and ready to fork could do a fork every week this means no asics can ever het a foothold
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mindrust
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March 31, 2018, 04:24:14 PM |
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We definitely need complete ASIC immune algos to keep Bitmain out.
Bitmain is making ASICs for the coins which are designed to be ASIC resistant. These coins owes most of their value for being decentralized/ASIC immune/Home mining friendliness but Bitmain has no respect to any of us.
Think about it, Ethereum&Monero clearly advertised their coins for being ASIC resistant. They advertised this as a feature. Now that feature is cracked by Bitmain. That means Bitmain is clearly attacking those coins and they will attack anything they are able to.
What we need is to fuck them right up where it hurts.
Vote with your hashpower, do not buy ASICs.
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chrysophylax
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March 31, 2018, 04:27:30 PM |
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I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
You cannot force anyone to do anything. In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW. My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one. So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market. What does this mean on an overall level? Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's. I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive. As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is! #crysx Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure. I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network. And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. Wrong ... That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not. If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue. MH or GH, the figures stand. #crysx wrong but tricky to make this wrong Phil16r already has Phil18r Phil20r Phil22r Phil24r developed and ready to fork could do a fork every week this means no asics can ever het a foothold Well ... I did mention that an Algo change would be easy, like you have just mentioned. I also stated that an Adaptive ASIC/FPGA would be very difficult to get around. Key word here - Adaptive. These hybrid systems are on the drawing boards, and I assure you will make life very difficult in this arena due to their upgradable flexibility in Algo change. If they are perfected, there will be almost no Algo they couldn't hash, unless they are built with limitations on RAM and capacity of processing. Otherwise, these Hybrids WILL be able to duplicate the vast majority of Algos. It wasn't long ago that people said 'ASIC proof' then 'ASIC resistant'. Don't think this is science fiction when I mention that these Adaptable Hybrid Miners (I call them AHM - I am creative that way ) are being developed right now. The moment the PHI algo is updated, a software update for the AHM will be available also shortly after. I am off to bed now for a long drive for Family, so I will not be able to answer any more posts for the time being until I get back, but mark my words that this will happen sooner than you think. Happy Easter All, and Nite Nite! #crysx
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PanneKopp
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aka ...
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March 31, 2018, 04:31:40 PM |
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Hi @philipma1957 , miners do secure blockchains, it does not matter what device is used. The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined. Use case and adoption gives value. PanneKopp You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin. He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture. Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto. Yes and what most people do not realize is every home in the world should have a good pc with a good card. I still propose this and gpu mining becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc. This makes adoption worldwide below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day 1 year later it earned 1460 pretty good rebate and many can go this route we need this it is important Dear Phil, if you propagate the idea, that mining has to come back to the roots, the way that users mine on their node the coins that they use, then I totally agree with you ! If it is about mining as a business, the ones with lowest energy costs will stand longest (not here). PanneKopp P.S. miners do not deliver adoption
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... please make an educated guess !
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