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Author Topic: [Ver 2.0] R14x: Intl. Robocoin GB ATM Launch in EU, N America, Feb '14. PMs only  (Read 31011 times)
bcabes
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November 04, 2013, 07:07:34 PM
 #141

Honestly, the way I read it was that payments wouldn't stop once the ROI hit 300%, just that it was a guaranteed ROI of 300% over 2 years. So theoretically, depending on how popular these are, we could get a 300% ROI in a year or less, and payments would continue until that 2 year period was up.

With that being said, I am curious to see how they react to people who are unhappy about these terms. Here's hoping for the best.

The first bullet point states otherwise. It seems pretty clear to me that once 300% ROI is hit you are done. Here is the full post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324225.msg3480030#msg3480030

- 300% ROI is Guaranteed within 2 years, after which the ownership of the machine reverts back to us.
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November 04, 2013, 07:10:10 PM
 #142

Honestly, the way I read it was that payments wouldn't stop once the ROI hit 300%, just that it was a guaranteed ROI of 300% over 2 years. So theoretically, depending on how popular these are, we could get a 300% ROI in a year or less, and payments would continue until that 2 year period was up.

With that being said, I am curious to see how they react to people who are unhappy about these terms. Here's hoping for the best.

The first bullet point states otherwise. It seems pretty clear to me that once 300% ROI is hit you are done. Here is the full post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324225.msg3480030#msg3480030

- 300% ROI is Guaranteed within 2 years, after which the ownership of the machine reverts back to us.
300% ROI is guaranteed within 2 years -> 3 times your investment will be returned within the time frame of 2 years.

After which the ownership of the machine reverts back to us
After you receive the 300% ROI the machine reverts back to the company.
bcabes
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November 04, 2013, 07:10:59 PM
 #143

Refunds will be processed later tonight (lunch break not able to do them if we even have any more than the two requested late last night)

don't hold me to this but I'm in the process of talking with RoboCoin to see how exactly the fee's are generated (either in BTC or in fiat) from the talks its looking like its a mixture of both, we MAY be able to amend the payments based on this. But at this time I'm unsure. On another little side note if we promise to pay 3 times in BTC and BTC drops we can technically buy you out.

We've selected the list of cities / areas based on what we've been told could possibly work based on the environment of the location.

We are open to suggestions on how you would like to see compensation however giving ownership of the ATM to each person could run into problems later, maybe a higher return + longer time period, if we can offer partial ownership we will.

And this is a business so if we go the way of tripling your BTC invested (or tripling what you invested) and then that goes down to a point where the business can buy you out in full by tripling your investment in a payout it comes back to us. But give us suggestions were all ears.

Honestly, the way I read it was that payments wouldn't stop once the ROI hit 300%, just that it was a guaranteed ROI of 300% over 2 years. So theoretically, depending on how popular these are, we could get a 300% ROI in a year or less, and payments would continue until that 2 year period was up.

With that being said, I am curious to see how they react to people who are unhappy about these terms. Here's hoping for the best.
For those that don't want to participate anymore a full refund will be issued.

The way we currently have the terms set up is you will get triple your investment ($123) within 2 years. After you get triple your $123's ($369) the ownership of the ATM belongs to the company.

Getting triple your investment back and 300% ROI are different. If I buy one share for $123 I would need $123*4 deposited for 300% ROI ($492). Getting $123 back is a 0% ROI. $246 is 100% ROI and so forth.
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November 04, 2013, 07:14:51 PM
 #144

Refunds will be processed later tonight (lunch break not able to do them if we even have any more than the two requested late last night)

don't hold me to this but I'm in the process of talking with RoboCoin to see how exactly the fee's are generated (either in BTC or in fiat) from the talks its looking like its a mixture of both, we MAY be able to amend the payments based on this. But at this time I'm unsure. On another little side note if we promise to pay 3 times in BTC and BTC drops we can technically buy you out.

We've selected the list of cities / areas based on what we've been told could possibly work based on the environment of the location.

We are open to suggestions on how you would like to see compensation however giving ownership of the ATM to each person could run into problems later, maybe a higher return + longer time period, if we can offer partial ownership we will.

And this is a business so if we go the way of tripling your BTC invested (or tripling what you invested) and then that goes down to a point where the business can buy you out in full by tripling your investment in a payout it comes back to us. But give us suggestions were all ears.

Honestly, the way I read it was that payments wouldn't stop once the ROI hit 300%, just that it was a guaranteed ROI of 300% over 2 years. So theoretically, depending on how popular these are, we could get a 300% ROI in a year or less, and payments would continue until that 2 year period was up.

With that being said, I am curious to see how they react to people who are unhappy about these terms. Here's hoping for the best.
For those that don't want to participate anymore a full refund will be issued.

The way we currently have the terms set up is you will get triple your investment ($123) within 2 years. After you get triple your $123's ($369) the ownership of the ATM belongs to the company.

Getting triple your investment back and 300% ROI are different. If I buy one share for $123 I would need $123*4 deposited for 300% ROI ($492). Getting $123 back is a 0% ROI. $246 is 100% ROI and so forth.
I may have misdone the math and explanation it is 300% ROI however I am rushing during my break to answer as much as I can before I have to leave which is what I'm doing right now.

I'll be back on in a few hours.
bcabes
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November 04, 2013, 07:17:33 PM
 #145

I may have misdone the math and explanation it is 300% ROI however I am rushing during my break to answer as much as I can before I have to leave which is what I'm doing right now.

I'll be back on in a few hours.

No problem I know you guys are moving at a breaking speed. Please look into this and clarify tonight when you have a chance.
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November 04, 2013, 09:33:33 PM
 #146

Refunds will be processed later tonight (lunch break not able to do them if we even have any more than the two requested late last night)

don't hold me to this but I'm in the process of talking with RoboCoin to see how exactly the fee's are generated (either in BTC or in fiat) from the talks its looking like its a mixture of both, we MAY be able to amend the payments based on this. But at this time I'm unsure. On another little side note if we promise to pay 3 times in BTC and BTC drops we can technically buy you out.

We've selected the list of cities / areas based on what we've been told could possibly work based on the environment of the location.

We are open to suggestions on how you would like to see compensation however giving ownership of the ATM to each person could run into problems later, maybe a higher return + longer time period, if we can offer partial ownership we will.

And this is a business so if we go the way of tripling your BTC invested (or tripling what you invested) and then that goes down to a point where the business can buy you out in full by tripling your investment in a payout it comes back to us. But give us suggestions were all ears.

Honestly, the way I read it was that payments wouldn't stop once the ROI hit 300%, just that it was a guaranteed ROI of 300% over 2 years. So theoretically, depending on how popular these are, we could get a 300% ROI in a year or less, and payments would continue until that 2 year period was up.

With that being said, I am curious to see how they react to people who are unhappy about these terms. Here's hoping for the best.
For those that don't want to participate anymore a full refund will be issued.

The way we currently have the terms set up is you will get triple your investment ($123) within 2 years. After you get triple your $123's ($369) the ownership of the ATM belongs to the company.

To be clear, I'm not asking for a refund right away. I would like to see where this goes first.

What does 'buying out' mean? Does it mean once a share has been paid back (or in this case the promised 300% ROI) that the company re-acquires the share?

Official partial ownership would be great, but if that is not possible the company could assume full ownership of the ATMs and the profit could be distributed to the investors behind the scenes as was suggested somewhere earlier in this thread. That way you couldn't possibly run into any obstructing regulations and such, right? (I don't have any clue about financial/business law, so forgive me if this suggestion isn't of any help).

I was also under the impression that the 300% ROI was a guarantee, not a limit on payout after which the ownership would revert to the company even before  the 2 years are up.

Now that the term ROI has been clarified, does it remain at 300%?


Please don't feel pressured because of questions, assumptions and misunderstandings. We're just hoping for clarification and correct information in order to make a wise decision regarding our 'investment funds'.
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November 04, 2013, 09:59:45 PM
 #147

Official partial ownership would be great, but if that is not possible the company could assume full ownership of the ATMs and the profit could be distributed to the investors behind the scenes as was suggested somewhere earlier in this thread. That way you couldn't possibly run into any obstructing regulations and such, right? (I don't have any clue about financial/business law, so forgive me if this suggestion isn't of any help).

I'm pretty sure this would result in the ATM's being seized and any hope of getting our money back would vanish. While this works for ASICMiner, that's only because they're mining and are only selling mining equipment (although that may change in the future). Here the company has to abide by a whole different set of laws that are very strict (Know Your Customer/money laundering laws). However, I'm hoping that I'm wrong and you're right.

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November 04, 2013, 10:21:46 PM
 #148

So now you explain that i only jumpstart your own business? I have to donate my part of the ATM to you after 2 years? So that its not only the 20% you earn as the organisator you get 100% later for all the ATM.

Why is that needed? This doesnt have to be a security. I dont need to own a company. I own a part on a machine. I doubt thats a security. And if it were, then i dont own a part on the machine, i would get bounty since i brought the company a good thing some time ago? Bounties are paid out all the time.

Anyway... with Asicminer i knew friedcat will get his fair share and i will take part the whole time. Im not sure that i want to see ATM's being a big success over time and then i have to donate everything like it became the next google type of success.

And the ROI over 2 years? I bought shares in USD. So i hope that doesnt mean i get revenue in USD. Since when i look at the developing of the bitcoin price it would be laughable it bitcoins would be only 3 times as costly in 2 years as they are now. So if your ROI is calculated in USD really it would be a sure way to make a loss.

When i invest im in with my money as risk and i want to be in with my money with the success too. Not being the donator that donates someone other a big business.

I hope you find another solution since i dont like this.
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November 04, 2013, 10:24:07 PM
 #149

When will DZ host an ATM in Hong Kong?

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November 04, 2013, 11:14:02 PM
 #150

I didn't buy into this to get 300% ROI, I bought into this to be a part owner in a global network of bitcoin atms. Now we are just fronting the cash to make you guys multi-millionaires.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, the main attraction to an ATM over a miner is that there is no concern about unpredictable future profitability. It should be able to run for the full life of the hardware and produce income for investors over that entire timeframe, rather than operate as financing of a longer-term investment for the corporation's owners.

I'm not particularly interested in becoming the corporation's lawyer, but if the main reason for the two year/300% ROI timeframe is legal compliance concerns I would be willing to put my expertise to use in overcoming that concern so this can become a life-of-the-ATM type investment rather than a bond-financing situation.

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November 04, 2013, 11:27:32 PM
 #151

I didn't buy into this to get 300% ROI, I bought into this to be a part owner in a global network of bitcoin atms. Now we are just fronting the cash to make you guys multi-millionaires.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, the main attraction to an ATM over a miner is that there is no concern about unpredictable future profitability. It should be able to run for the full life of the hardware and produce income for investors over that entire timeframe, rather than operate as financing of a longer-term investment for the corporation's owners.

I'm not particularly interested in becoming the corporation's lawyer, but if the main reason for the two year/300% ROI timeframe is legal compliance concerns I would be willing to put my expertise to use in overcoming that concern so this can become a life-of-the-ATM type investment rather than a bond-financing situation.

Oh, do tell? We are all ears. We have an oil/gas contracts expert on-board, but honestly, any help to navigate this legal international morass is greatly appreciated. We may be able to work out a BTC compensation for your services.

We really, really wish we could just give you guys partial ownership for life. Believe us: if there's a way to give you guys partial ownership for the life of the ATM outright, we'd take that option in a NY minute.

We are still reserving this option as our first choice, if this becomes feasible.


===

FWIW, for those worrying about the legality of an offering running afoul of SEC laws, there is an exemption for "offerings of limited size."

"Not all offerings of securities must be registered with the Commission. Some exemptions from the registration requirement include:

    private offerings to a limited number of persons or institutions;

    offerings of limited size;

    intrastate offerings; and

    securities of municipal, state, and federal governments.

By exempting many small offerings from the registration process, the SEC seeks to foster capital formation by lowering the cost of offering securities to the public."


http://www.sec.gov/about/laws.shtml

Digging through it again, I could not find any clarification as to what size of an offering will trigger mandatory SEC registration.

==

Pertaining to ROI payback: if you invested $123 in a share, with a 300% ROI guarantee, you will receive the BTC equivalent of $492, or 4x your original investment.

Again, our first choice is to give you outright ownership if we can legally square this away, with this 300% ROI guarantee of 4x your original investment as our 2nd option we *really* don't want to take, but may be forced to at this early stage of our startup's operations.
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November 04, 2013, 11:50:41 PM
 #152

I really hope that you guys can work this out. Is there a possibility of retaining a lawyer if beavertank can't help? Also, I have a question about payment. I can send in enough coins that I will only have about .04BTC left, however Coinbase apparently took away my ability to purchase BTC instantly, and my BTC will come in on Friday. Is this acceptable or should I just bow out? I am order #451 if that helps.

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November 04, 2013, 11:55:43 PM
 #153

I didn't buy into this to get 300% ROI, I bought into this to be a part owner in a global network of bitcoin atms. Now we are just fronting the cash to make you guys multi-millionaires.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, the main attraction to an ATM over a miner is that there is no concern about unpredictable future profitability. It should be able to run for the full life of the hardware and produce income for investors over that entire timeframe, rather than operate as financing of a longer-term investment for the corporation's owners.

I'm not particularly interested in becoming the corporation's lawyer, but if the main reason for the two year/300% ROI timeframe is legal compliance concerns I would be willing to put my expertise to use in overcoming that concern so this can become a life-of-the-ATM type investment rather than a bond-financing situation.

Oh, do tell? We are all ears. We have an oil/gas contracts expert on-board, but honestly, any help to navigate this legal international morass is greatly appreciated. We may be able to work out a BTC compensation for your services.

We really, really wish we could just give you guys partial ownership for life. Believe us: if there's a way to give you guys partial ownership for the life of the ATM outright, we'd take that option in a NY minute.

We are still reserving this option as our first choice, if this becomes feasible.


===

FWIW, for those worrying about the legality of an offering running afoul of SEC laws, there is an exemption for "offerings of limited size."

"Not all offerings of securities must be registered with the Commission. Some exemptions from the registration requirement include:

    private offerings to a limited number of persons or institutions;

    offerings of limited size;

    intrastate offerings; and

    securities of municipal, state, and federal governments.

By exempting many small offerings from the registration process, the SEC seeks to foster capital formation by lowering the cost of offering securities to the public."


http://www.sec.gov/about/laws.shtml

Digging through it again, I could not find any clarification as to what size of an offering will trigger mandatory SEC registration.

==

Pertaining to ROI payback: if you invested $123 in a share, with a 300% ROI guarantee, you will receive the BTC equivalent of $492, or 4x your original investment.

Again, our first choice is to give you outright ownership if we can legally square this away, with this 300% ROI guarantee of 4x your original investment as our 2nd option we *really* don't want to take, but may be forced to at this early stage of our startup's operations.


One ATM is limited size for sure.

But when i read the ROI... turning $123 into $492 might be 300% ROI but only if the bitcoin price freezes now. If the bitcoin price goes from $230 to $690 in 2 years it would be the same like keeping the bitcoins. If the bitcoin price is higher thatn $690 in 2years!!! then it would be a negative ROI for me instead keeping my bitcoins. And i highly doubt that the bitcoin is at 690$ in 2 years. If he is lower or even dead then the ATMs would be dead too.

So thats not for me. I dont see why the ROI is calculated in USD but maybe the numbers are correct from the first ATMs results. Where are the numbers of that ATM? Maybe these numbers are not real and in reality higher?
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November 04, 2013, 11:56:13 PM
 #154

Hello,
I would like to see a business plan written up or full disclosure. Such as a prospectus. Guaranteeing a certain ROI is a bit worrisome. I think of the show "American greed". Everybody guarantees a certain amount and we know how that turns out..
Just some random thoughts
Brian


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November 05, 2013, 12:02:12 AM
 #155

my 2 satoshis to OP:
1. denominate the shares in BTC or some call it XBT now. ( don't use USD )
2. hire lawyers
3. hire an auditor
4. get an escrow to act as trustee and distribute the dividends.

my 2 satoshis to potential investors:
1. let the buyer beware (Caveat emptor)
2. do your own due diligence
3. there's plenty of other XBT investments out there. (just like the ones we in BitAngels see on a daily basis)




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November 05, 2013, 12:10:46 AM
 #156

...
Pertaining to ROI payback: if you invested $123 in a share, with a 300% ROI guarantee, you will receive the BTC equivalent of $492, or 4x your original investment.
...

So to be clear, at the end of this agreement we will have received the BTC-equivalent of $492 calculated at that time? In other words, we will not necessarily receive BTC2.46?
(1 share = $123 = BTC0.615 at $200/BTC - 4xshare = BTC2.46)
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November 05, 2013, 12:15:02 AM
 #157

my 2 satoshis to OP:
1. denominate the shares in BTC or some call it XBT now. ( don't use USD )
2. hire lawyers
3. hire an auditor
4. get an escrow to act as trustee and distribute the dividends.

my 2 satoshis to potential investors:
1. let the buyer beware (Caveat emptor)
2. do your own due diligence
3. there's plenty of other XBT investments out there. (just like the ones we in BitAngels see on a daily basis)




+1


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█████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
DECENT
FOUNDATION



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[D]ecentralized application
[E]liminated third parties
[C]ontent distribution       



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[E]ncrypted & secure
[N]o borders
[T]imeless reputation 



██
██
██
██
██
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Bitrated user: Vagnavs.
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November 05, 2013, 01:30:24 AM
 #158

I'm a bit disappointed..

Was looking for a long term investment.  I don't particularly fancy being used to front these machines for you guys to keep after 2 years.

unless there is long term dividend on profits, I'm sorry but I'm not interested.

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November 05, 2013, 02:55:17 AM
 #159

I'm a bit disappointed..

Was looking for a long term investment.  I don't particularly fancy being used to front these machines for you guys to keep after 2 years.

unless there is long term dividend on profits, I'm sorry but I'm not interested.

+1

Getting Bitcoin ATMs into some capital cities via crowd-funding is a great idea, but this is more like a 2-year USD-Bond with 300% interest, than an invest into BTC cash machines.

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November 05, 2013, 03:22:44 AM
 #160

They refunded a large order on my part. That is a good sign about their intentions at least.
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