Bitcoin Forum
November 24, 2017, 11:32:26 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: TdH Traced 1000 Webcam Child Sex Tourists with a digital child  (Read 3619 times)
hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 05, 2013, 08:23:51 PM
 #1



http://www.youtube.com/sweetie?annotation_id=annotation_261749069&feature=iv&src_vid=aGmKmVvCzkw

just saw this vid,
and the idea behind it is genious.
Terres des Hommes started a project where they completely modeled and rigged the virtual body of a 10-year-old philippine girl to hunt down online sextourists on webcam chatrooms.
They traced 1000 people in a month!!!

Why hasn't any police force in the world yet come up with this idea?

for support sign petition on Avaaz: http://avaaz.org/en/wcst/


1511523146
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511523146

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511523146
Reply with quote  #2

1511523146
Report to moderator
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511523146
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511523146

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511523146
Reply with quote  #2

1511523146
Report to moderator
1511523146
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511523146

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511523146
Reply with quote  #2

1511523146
Report to moderator
Wilikon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176


minds.com/Wilikon


View Profile
November 06, 2013, 12:43:34 AM
 #2

 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Castration4bitcoin.com
Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 12:55:08 AM
 #3



http://www.youtube.com/sweetie?annotation_id=annotation_261749069&feature=iv&src_vid=aGmKmVvCzkw

just saw this vid,
and the idea behind it is genious.
Terres des Hommes started a project where they completely modeled and rigged the virtual body of a 10-year-old philippine girl to hunt down online sextourists on webcam chatrooms.
They traced 1000 people in a month!!!

Why hasn't any police force in the world yet come up with this idea?

for support sign petition on Avaaz: http://avaaz.org/en/wcst/


Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.
Wilikon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176


minds.com/Wilikon


View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:13:00 AM
 #4



http://www.youtube.com/sweetie?annotation_id=annotation_261749069&feature=iv&src_vid=aGmKmVvCzkw

just saw this vid,
and the idea behind it is genious.
Terres des Hommes started a project where they completely modeled and rigged the virtual body of a 10-year-old philippine girl to hunt down online sextourists on webcam chatrooms.
They traced 1000 people in a month!!!

Why hasn't any police force in the world yet come up with this idea?

for support sign petition on Avaaz: http://avaaz.org/en/wcst/


Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.

Actually thinking about it was there a crime committed if you were with a virtual character? What happened if you knew all along it was a virtual character when the cops come scooping you up?
hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:21:18 AM
 #5

Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.

well, thanks for contributing such a sensible comment to this thread, that was quite distracting. have you even watched the vid?  Roll Eyes
a little bit more empathy instead of sarcasm regarding this subject wouldn't have been wrong...

i don't know if the whole avaaz petition stuff will help this in any way,
but still it's a good attempt to fight human sex slavery and i felt like sharing it.


hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 02:11:32 AM
 #6

Actually thinking about it was there a crime committed if you were with a virtual character? What happened if you knew all along it was a virtual character when the cops come scooping you up?
that is the same question as if it's okay to have a doll of a child at home and doing all kinds of things with it.
(http://www.vice.com/read/japan-trottla-dolls-lifesize-lingerie)

the whole pedophilia discussion is another story.
how should the treatment/punishment be? should it be considered as a "sexual orientation" like homosexuality or a psychological disease?
Is it best to castrate these people or put them on medication or simply exclude them from society and let them rot in a prison cell?

it wasn't my attempt to start a discussion here, but from a neutral point of view a man should know if he has a temporary "lolita complex"
(defined as fantasies about sexual intercourse with juveniles older than 12 years, which psychologically proven occurs during sexual orientation phase of a big percentage of men and is declared as being "natural")
or if he likes thinking about sexual intercourse with underage children (defined as pedophilia, children younger than 11 years, socially not accepted and treated as a crime).
In a well-educated society a rational and aware person should in the best case realize his pedophiliac tendencies quite early and get psychological treatment because he will have to deal with fighting and hiding this side of his sexual instinct until the rest of his life.
In sad reality though most pedophiles have a bipolar life, seeking release for their sexual drive anonymously on the web or even abusing children while in other countries (where it's either poverty driven or even partly tolerated because of religious/social traditions)


of course, it's a complete other story if it concerns your own children, then the safety/vengeance instinct gets active and repayment is the first thing that comes to my mind.


the movies "The Woodsman", "The Hunt" and "The Celebration" present some interesting thought approaches for this subject.

Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 02:56:12 AM
 #7

Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.

well, thanks for contributing such a sensible comment to this thread, that was quite distracting. have you even watched the vid?  Roll Eyes
a little bit more empathy instead of sarcasm regarding this subject wouldn't have been wrong...

i don't know if the whole avaaz petition stuff will help this in any way,
but still it's a good attempt to fight human sex slavery and i felt like sharing it.


ARE YOU NUTS?

A person logs on to some chatroom with an avatar.  That's a virtual person.  A cop logs on to a chatroom with an avatar.  (in this case, of a certain age).  That's a virtual person.  There is no difference between this and what I described. 

Now let me guess - you'd ban the movie and book Lolita, right?  Or track the people that rented or bought them?

LOL...
hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 03:18:41 AM
 #8

Gee that's horrible.
I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.
well, thanks for contributing such a sensible comment to this thread, that was quite distracting. have you even watched the vid?  Roll Eyes
a little bit more empathy instead of sarcasm regarding this subject wouldn't have been wrong...

i don't know if the whole avaaz petition stuff will help this in any way,
but still it's a good attempt to fight human sex slavery and i felt like sharing it.
ARE YOU NUTS?
A person logs on to some chatroom with an avatar.  That's a virtual person.  A cop logs on to a chatroom with an avatar.  (in this case, of a certain age).  That's a virtual person.  There is no difference between this and what I described.  

Now let me guess - you'd ban the movie and book Lolita, right?  Or track the people that rented or bought them?

LOL...

i really don't get your perspective here.  Huh

So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child?
It's not like these people purposely looked for a photorealistic 3d-model of a child as an avatar but assumed the child was real in the first place.

Should the virtual world grow along with some basic social and ethical rules or should it present a place free of any restrictions even if it involves real children in front of webcams?

and no i would neither ban the Lolita movies nor the book. I've seen both movies and have read the book and it widened my awareness.
Especially the book gives a very good insight of the bipolar life of a person with this complex.
Pedophilia though has nothing to do with this story.

Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 03:43:53 AM
 #9

......
So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child (even if it's a virtual model the other person still thinks it's real).....

Something about this sounds so totally weird I think you likely need to reassess what you are proposing - in fact reassess the premises behind your positions.

Obviously where you are headed is advocating police entrapment of perverts, some kind of persuasion of them to get them to take some illegal action so that they can be jailed.  This starts with presentation of fake animation of children on some kind of internet site - bait.  The fake animations would be used because real children shouldn't be subjected to such things.

That's a pretty sick game, bud.  You might want to read up a bit on issues and problems with the concept and implementation of entrapment.
Littleshop
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1316



View Profile WWW
November 06, 2013, 03:52:22 AM
 #10

Gee that's horrible.
I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.
well, thanks for contributing such a sensible comment to this thread, that was quite distracting. have you even watched the vid?  Roll Eyes
a little bit more empathy instead of sarcasm regarding this subject wouldn't have been wrong...

i don't know if the whole avaaz petition stuff will help this in any way,
but still it's a good attempt to fight human sex slavery and i felt like sharing it.
ARE YOU NUTS?
A person logs on to some chatroom with an avatar.  That's a virtual person.  A cop logs on to a chatroom with an avatar.  (in this case, of a certain age).  That's a virtual person.  There is no difference between this and what I described.  

Now let me guess - you'd ban the movie and book Lolita, right?  Or track the people that rented or bought them?

LOL...

i really don't get your perspective here.  Huh

So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child?
It's not like these people purposely looked for a photorealistic 3d-model of a child as an avatar but assumed the child was real in the first place.

Should the virtual world grow along with some basic social and ethical rules or should it present a place free of any restrictions even if it involves real children in front of webcams?

and no i would neither ban the Lolita movies nor the book. I've seen both movies and have read the book and it widened my awareness.
Especially the book gives a very good insight of the bipolar life of a person with this complex.
Pedophilia though has nothing to do with this story.


If you buy pot from an undercover cop, you bought pot. 

If you do something ONLINE with someone posing as an underage person you are still NOT doing something with an underage person, you are doing that activity with an adult.  It certainly shows intent, but at that point it is a thought crime. 


hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 05:00:24 AM
 #11

......
So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child (even if it's a virtual model the other person still thinks it's real).....

Something about this sounds so totally weird I think you likely need to reassess what you are proposing - in fact reassess the premises behind your positions.

Obviously where you are headed is advocating police entrapment of perverts, some kind of persuasion of them to get them to take some illegal action so that they can be jailed.  This starts with presentation of fake animation of children on some kind of internet site - bait.  The fake animations would be used because real children shouldn't be subjected to such things.

That's a pretty sick game, bud.  You might want to read up a bit on issues and problems with the concept and implementation of entrapment.

honestly, you have a good point.
(reminds me of the story where US police left cars unlocked in an area and arrest people that drove away with them. my comparison is a bit off here as we're talking about virtual world but i get what you mean)

Now I understand your perspective and the thing with police entrapment.
i think we can agree the main problem lies more within the following aftermath and the stigma of pedophilia and how it's still treated in a "medieval" way in our society.
Imagine all of these traced people getting a letter or an email proposing them a psychologist near their neighbourhood to simply think about a treatment and learn how to handle these tendencies.
Unfortunately we are still far away from dealing pedophily openly and as an "anti-social" side of sexual orientation that has been there for many centuries and should be treated like that.

Sure if some young guy, still wet behind his ears, approaches this virtual avatar out of pure curiosity and is still unsure about this previously unknown side of his sexual orientation,
he will be marked for his life after a sentence and will in no way get the treatment to learn how to deal with it atm.
On the other hand a pedophile that is actively abusing children for some decades in real life and also regularly abuses underage children via webcam, is a constant potential threat for the environment around him and it would be better to keep him in closed treatment.

If I recall correctly police has already created honeypots with childporn.

I admit to a part that my perspective here is influenced by the perhaps utopian idea that more awareness on this subject will also alter its future treatment in society.
Your perspective is probably partly influenced by the rightful distrust against governmental authorities and their tendency for unobjective and excessive punishment. (and also their long tail of perverted developments, like privatization of prisons or a blown-up administrative machinery influencing the legislation processes to keep a constant moneyflow guaranteed in its own interest)

That's a tough subject there...
i'll need some more contemplation on this one, thanks for posting your opinion.



Lethn
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile WWW
November 06, 2013, 08:12:30 AM
 #12



http://www.youtube.com/sweetie?annotation_id=annotation_261749069&feature=iv&src_vid=aGmKmVvCzkw

just saw this vid,
and the idea behind it is genious.
Terres des Hommes started a project where they completely modeled and rigged the virtual body of a 10-year-old philippine girl to hunt down online sextourists on webcam chatrooms.
They traced 1000 people in a month!!!

Why hasn't any police force in the world yet come up with this idea?

for support sign petition on Avaaz: http://avaaz.org/en/wcst/


Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.

You just know that someone is going to actually say that and mean it for real, have you seen what those morons say about Hentai? They're fucking lines and bits of colour! >_<

While I can agree this kind of thing can reveal things about our society as a whole it's also a dumb witch hunt attempt, there is no actual child involved and no violence and for once in law there is a very clear definition for this kind of thing, people can twist it up however they like and make up their own definitions but unless it's a real child being molested then there's nothing they can or should do without labelling themselves gigantic douchebags.

Going by this logic all sorts of crimes should be able to have legal entrapment, we'd start seeing piracy lobby groups putting out a fake torrent download ( I believe they already do things like this ) and claiming that anyone who downloaded it was committing a crime, yes, I am comparing this and yes, it's all the fucking same, I absolutely despise the self-righteous and the morally superior and refuse to have anything to do with them.
hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
 #13

Gee that's horrible.

I'm concerned about the abuse of digital characters by other digital characters.  All of the characters in Shrek are digital and some are horribly abused.  What are we going to do about that?  Like they get abused over and over - every time the movie is played or replayed.

You just know that someone is going to actually say that and mean it for real, have you seen what those morons say about Hentai? They're fucking lines and bits of colour! >_<

While I can agree this kind of thing can reveal things about our society as a whole it's also a dumb witch hunt attempt, there is no actual child involved and no violence and for once in law there is a very clear definition for this kind of thing, people can twist it up however they like and make up their own definitions but unless it's a real child being molested then there's nothing they can or should do without labelling themselves gigantic douchebags.

Going by this logic all sorts of crimes should be able to have legal entrapment, we'd start seeing piracy lobby groups putting out a fake torrent download ( I believe they already do things like this ) and claiming that anyone who downloaded it was committing a crime, yes, I am comparing this and yes, it's all the fucking same, I absolutely despise the self-righteous and the morally superior and refuse to have anything to do with them.

I must say after a second thought I've reconsidered my opinion.
the main problem is how society is dealing with this problem atm and how "solving" it with the common way of crime punishment always drives towards the mentioned "witch hunt".
My only hope here is that someday pedophilia will be treated by society as that what it is and psychologists will develop better methods to help these people than using strong medication with a lot of negative sideeffects or simply putting them away in prison.
As long as this isn't possible and society isn't open enough to deal with pedophiles in a more rational way, this will stay a witch hunt and won't get down to its roots.

Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:11:20 PM
 #14

......
So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child (even if it's a virtual model the other person still thinks it's real).....

Something about this sounds so totally weird I think you likely need to reassess what you are proposing - in fact reassess the premises behind your positions.

Obviously where you are headed is advocating police entrapment of perverts, some kind of persuasion of them to get them to take some illegal action so that they can be jailed.  This starts with presentation of fake animation of children on some kind of internet site - bait.  The fake animations would be used because real children shouldn't be subjected to such things.

That's a pretty sick game, bud.  You might want to read up a bit on issues and problems with the concept and implementation of entrapment.

honestly, you have a good point.....
That's a tough subject there...
i'll need some more contemplation on this one, thanks for posting your opinion.
You might want to read up a bit on the history of police enforcement of vice laws.  The things that you've described have a remarkable parallel to police entrapment of homosexuals in  back in the 1950-1960 era.  

District attorneys are usually interested in getting the arrest/conviction rates up, not down.    They hand out assignments and essentially, quotas.

I remember reading somewhere that today, a guy might walk out of a club, and feeling the need and the street being relatively deserted, take a leak in some corner.  But that today he might be arrested for this, for 'indecent exposure', and have the stigma of that arrest and conviction record.  In the past, that wouldn't have occurred.  Sounds like that's a reasonable projection of today's reality.

Of course then on the contrary, to have a police state you gotta have some stuff for police to do....



Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:14:08 PM
 #15

....

I must say after a second thought I've reconsidered my opinion.
the main problem is how society is dealing with this problem atm and how "solving" it with the common way of crime punishment always drives towards the mentioned "witch hunt"....
Thank you for considering the ideas that I expressed, albeit rather imperfectly.

Yes it's a problem that needs attention. 
hlynur
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 01:35:13 PM
 #16

honestly, you have a good point.....
That's a tough subject there...
i'll need some more contemplation on this one, thanks for posting your opinion.
You might want to read up a bit on the history of police enforcement of vice laws.  The things that you've described have a remarkable parallel to police entrapment of homosexuals in  back in the 1950-1960 era.  

District attorneys are usually interested in getting the arrest/conviction rates up, not down.    They hand out assignments and essentially, quotas.

I remember reading somewhere that today, a guy might walk out of a club, and feeling the need and the street being relatively deserted, take a leak in some corner.  But that today he might be arrested for this, for 'indecent exposure', and have the stigma of that arrest and conviction record.  In the past, that wouldn't have occurred.  Sounds like that's a reasonable projection of today's reality.

Of course then on the contrary, to have a police state you gotta have some stuff for police to do....

yea, i've had these parallels to homosexuality on my mind yesterday and that mainly drove the thought process to change my opinion here.

It's out of question that pedophilia by contrast to homosexuality is an anti-social sexual orientation and shouldn't be tolerated in our modern society,
but the way of pillorying must have to change first until entrapment can be considered a possible way to produce relief with successive therapy.

Lethn
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile WWW
November 06, 2013, 01:50:47 PM
 #17

......
So as soon as a person logs on some chatroom he's a virtual person and therefore every social rule from the real life is cancelled and he can happily wank away in front of a ten year old child (even if it's a virtual model the other person still thinks it's real).....

Something about this sounds so totally weird I think you likely need to reassess what you are proposing - in fact reassess the premises behind your positions.

Obviously where you are headed is advocating police entrapment of perverts, some kind of persuasion of them to get them to take some illegal action so that they can be jailed.  This starts with presentation of fake animation of children on some kind of internet site - bait.  The fake animations would be used because real children shouldn't be subjected to such things.

That's a pretty sick game, bud.  You might want to read up a bit on issues and problems with the concept and implementation of entrapment.

honestly, you have a good point.....
That's a tough subject there...
i'll need some more contemplation on this one, thanks for posting your opinion.
You might want to read up a bit on the history of police enforcement of vice laws.  The things that you've described have a remarkable parallel to police entrapment of homosexuals in  back in the 1950-1960 era.  

District attorneys are usually interested in getting the arrest/conviction rates up, not down.    They hand out assignments and essentially, quotas.

I remember reading somewhere that today, a guy might walk out of a club, and feeling the need and the street being relatively deserted, take a leak in some corner.  But that today he might be arrested for this, for 'indecent exposure', and have the stigma of that arrest and conviction record.  In the past, that wouldn't have occurred.  Sounds like that's a reasonable projection of today's reality.

Of course then on the contrary, to have a police state you gotta have some stuff for police to do....





This is also why you have all these cases of rape and molestation handled with in a really shitty way, it's all because people aren't open about sexuality and actually understand everything enough to deal with the problem Sad
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
November 06, 2013, 03:17:51 PM
 #18

Awwwwww! And here I thought that pedos might actually finally get a release for their whateverthefuck by being able to use digital, simulated, (and maybe even AI) virtual stuff. Kinda like how frustrated teens get their release by playing first person shooter games, and shooting the hell out of everything, virtually, as opposed to snapping and doing it at school.

Oh well.

One topic I kinda wondered about: At what point in AI development will pedos playing with virtual avatars go from "they are just playing a game" to "they are molesting an underage entity?" Will it ever get there, if the virtual entity was designed with consent in mind? Will a young AI even be considered to legally be able to give consent? And what happens when people are able to use gene therapy to freeze their age, or revert themselves to a younger body? Would it be creepy if, 1000 years from now, we have a ton of "adults" in 12 year old bodies doing "adult" stuff?

Bleh. The possibilities in the future are so screwy  Grin


EDIT - I can also see this technology leading to a drastic change in these webcam chats: From now on, children will be required to put shoes on head to prove they are who they say they are, meaning all the poor kids who don't have shoes will be discriminated against (p.s. yes I'm joking. Somewhat. I wouldn't be surprised is Sweetie will have to add a shoe on head rendering at some time in the future)

Lethn
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile WWW
November 06, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
 #19

Quote
And what happens when people are able to use gene therapy to freeze their age, or revert themselves to a younger body? Would it be creepy if, 1000 years from now, we have a ton of "adults" in 12 year old bodies doing "adult" stuff?

*steals the idea for a manga*
Spendulus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
November 06, 2013, 03:43:49 PM
 #20

Awwwwww! And here I thought that pedos might actually finally get a release for their whateverthefuck by being able to use digital, simulated, (and maybe even AI) virtual stuff. Kinda like how frustrated teens get their release by playing first person shooter games, and shooting the hell out of everything, virtually, as opposed to snapping and doing it at school.

Oh well.

One topic I kinda wondered about: At what point in AI development will pedos playing with virtual avatars go from "they are just playing a game" to "they are molesting an underage entity?" Will it ever get there, if the virtual entity was designed with consent in mind? Will a young AI even be considered to legally be able to give consent?....
Under current law, AI is not even an animal.  Animals are in most states, just property.  But in a practical sense AI could not be 'underage', due to the rate of growth of knowledge and intelligence in an AI.  One hour for a true AI might be like ten thousand years for humans.  Still, that does not impart wisdom and AI could know everything but be awfully stupid.
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!