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Author Topic: Bitcoin is a Bug Fix to the Fiat System  (Read 3353 times)
benjamindees (OP)
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November 06, 2013, 08:58:24 AM
 #1

Fiat currencies contain a bug.  Specifically, a race condition.  The inflation rate is determined independently of the growth rate of the economy.  These variables should be unified.

Bitcoin eliminates this bug.

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deisik
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November 06, 2013, 01:39:31 PM
 #2

Fiat currencies contain a bug.  Specifically, a race condition.  The inflation rate is determined independently of the growth rate of the economy.  These variables should be unified.

Bitcoin eliminates this bug.

Strange, I'd rather say that it is bitcoin which suffers from this bug. Do I miss something?

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November 06, 2013, 01:55:36 PM
 #3

Maybe you missed the bit where it's impossible for states to pay back central banks due to interest, the amount owed will always be higher than the amount in circulation.

But this in no case makes bitcoin meet the requirements of the economy (either shrinking or expanding). Its supply is totally inelastic, which is, in my opinion, even worse

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November 06, 2013, 02:13:36 PM
 #4

Some would argue its better as markets are entirely constrained by supply and demand and cant be untethered by things like QE. Imho simple economic foundations are clouded by economic technobabel, if a country spends more than it earns its going to go bust and no amount of creative accounting can prevent that. The Bitcoin markets are interesting because they're unregulated and manipulative actions are often obvious. The market it's self responds and frequently attempts to manipulate result in spectacular failures which goes some way towards proving that market regulation is unnecessary and can cause more problems than it solves.

This is another question, but this would hinder real economic growth. That is why gold failed (and currencies backed by it)

deisik
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November 06, 2013, 02:38:50 PM
 #5

Gold didn't fail, its still the preferred store of value for much of the world. It also didn't change in value, oil has been fairly consistent at 15 barrels an ounce for a long time. The whole concept of growth is debatable too, there was a time when it served a purpose but its gone beyond that and as we push it further and further it results in more and more wastage and inefficiency. Basically we have all we need for everyone to be comfortably well off and the only reason to chase growth is to repay interest.

Gold failed as a currency. As a store of value you can use pretty anything of lasting value (diamonds, whatever). Gold is just more convenient and universal

If you still disagree, please name a few currencies which are either gold (or silver for that matter) or on gold. The countries on precious metals standard HAD to switch to fiat because they dragged through a number of real crises. And real here means REAL when people starved to death

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November 06, 2013, 02:48:11 PM
 #6

Gold didn't fail, its still the preferred store of value for much of the world. It also didn't change in value, oil has been fairly consistent at 15 barrels an ounce for a long time. The whole concept of growth is debatable too, there was a time when it served a purpose but its gone beyond that and as we push it further and further it results in more and more wastage and inefficiency. Basically we have all we need for everyone to be comfortably well off and the only reason to chase growth is to repay interest.

Gold failed as currency. As a store of value you can use pretty anything of lasting value (diamonds, whatever). Gold is just more convenient and universal

If you still disagree, please name a few currencies which are either gold (or silver for that matter) or on gold. The countries on precious metals standard HAD to switch to fiat because they dragged through a number of real crises. And real here means REAL when people starved to death

Any quantity of money, within reasonable limits, is optimal. There is no benefit in changing the quantity of money. It just introduces distortions and makes economic calculation more difficult. The move away from the gold standard had nothing to do with people starving to death because of an inelastic money supply. It was the result of the First World War and the resulting huge war debts.

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November 06, 2013, 03:03:04 PM
Last edit: November 06, 2013, 03:16:32 PM by deisik
 #7

Any quantity of money, within reasonable limits, is optimal. There is no benefit in changing the quantity of money. It just introduces distortions and makes economic calculation more difficult.

The quantity of money should correspond to the volume of the economy (total goods/services produced)

The move away from the gold standard had nothing to do with people starving to death because of an inelastic money supply. It was the result of the First World War and the resulting huge war debts.

You made my day, really. What huge debts had USA after the First World War? United States was the biggest creditor to Europe and it had no debts. How comes?

Inelastic money supply (because precious metal content in the currency is fixed) causes production to shrink (unless offset by factors such as technological advances) which in turn causes unemployment which causes consumer expenditures to fall and so we get into vicious circle

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November 06, 2013, 03:15:09 PM
 #8

Libya proposed one and things suddenly became very complicated for them and when "rebels" took over one of the first things they did was to give up the sovereignty of Libya's central bank. If countries controlled their own central banks there might be more attempts at gold backed currencies, unfortunately there are very few sovereign central banks these days, less than 3 iirc.

So now we are getting into the land of dreams. Nice

Physical gold cant be printed at will and printing is very very profitable

This has nothing to do with gold as a currency

imho this is why gold backed currencies are rare but most of the USD status as world reserve currency is due to oil trading and oil and gold prices have been firmly linked for decades.

There're no such currencies presently, to begin with. The USD status as a world reserve currency is not because of oil (or any other merchandise for this matter) but as a result of USA controlling world trade and trade ways (through exchanges and military)

I don't disagree with the principle, history makes it clear that any fixed amount of currency will inevitably end up in the hands of a very small number of people leaving the rest to suffer but printing money at will has gone from a way to get over the bad times to a way to stay ahead of the game without cutting spending. That's another way of saying hyperinflation and its hard to know which is worse but when the printing also benefits a very small number of people at the cost of everyone else it becomes clearer.

It has always been so (putting conspiracy theories aside). Nevertheless we are still better off today than we were a hundred years ago

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November 06, 2013, 03:25:33 PM
 #9

The counterargument for the first point was worthless, what part of it do you dismiss as "the land of dreams"?

That Libya proposed gold dinar (?) and things suddenly became very complicated for her. The rest is what called "conspiracy theories", I am just not into it, sorry

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November 06, 2013, 03:35:28 PM
 #10

Then its not worth discussing further, Libya no longer has a sovereign central bank (iirc it was gold backed btw). Syria is one of the few countries left with a sovereign central bank, isn't it great things are so peaceful there atm with no US backed rebels. Conspiracy doesn't automatically mean false.

Are you one of those "gold bugs"?

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November 06, 2013, 06:48:36 PM
 #11

It has occurred to me that anyone could build an inflationary alt-coin on top of the bitcoin protocol. Let's call it GrowCoin. All we would have to program is an user interface that shows GrowCoin as a multiple (let's call the variable xmultiple) of Bitcoin. The variable xmultiple could be programmed to increase by 1% every month. When you make a purchase using GrowCoin, the interface would just divide by xmultiple to get amount in bitcoin and send them to the new address. Your GrowCoins would increase by 1% every month.

This little mental exercise shows the whole silliness of the idea that we need an inflationary economy. The reason that governments love inflation is that they (and their friends) get the money first. They also get to pay back debts with cheaper money.

deisik
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November 06, 2013, 06:58:54 PM
Last edit: November 06, 2013, 07:24:48 PM by deisik
 #12

It has occurred to me that anyone could build an inflationary alt-coin on top of the bitcoin protocol. Let's call it GrowCoin. All we would have to program is an user interface that shows GrowCoin as a multiple (let's call the variable xmultiple) of Bitcoin. The variable xmultiple could be programmed to increase by 1% every month. When you make a purchase using GrowCoin, the interface would just divide by xmultiple to get amount in bitcoin and send them to the new address. Your GrowCoins would increase by 1% every month.

Congratulations! You are trying to "invent" money multiplicator

This little mental exercise shows the whole silliness of the idea that we need an inflationary economy. The reason that governments love inflation is that they (and their friends) get the money first. They also get to pay back debts with cheaper money.

It's called seigniorage

theonewhowaskazu
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November 06, 2013, 09:33:48 PM
 #13

Maybe you missed the bit where it's impossible for states to pay back central banks due to interest, the amount owed will always be higher than the amount in circulation.

But this in no case makes bitcoin meet the requirements of the economy (either shrinking or expanding). Its supply is totally inelastic, which is, in my opinion, even worse

Tell me, what exactly is bad about an "inelastic" currency?

An "inelastic" currency just means one outside of the control of government agencies, i.e, in the control of the free market. Its ridiculous to think that by pumping more currency into existence you're enriching people. That's just dumb. If you want "more" money, represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins.

deisik
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November 07, 2013, 03:58:49 AM
 #14

Tell me, what exactly is bad about an "inelastic" currency?

An "inelastic" currency just means one outside of the control of government agencies, i.e, in the control of the free market. Its ridiculous to think that by pumping more currency into existence you're enriching people. That's just dumb. If you want "more" money, represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins.

In short, deflating currency ("represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins") would be hindrance to a growing economy. There will be no incentive for producers to expand production (or even keep it at the same level) since there is a time lag between production (including all steps up to an end-product) and actual disposal of goods through stores - you would buy high and sell low

Expanded production makes people richer and comes first, money as such is only a utility, it's secondary to production

justusranvier
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November 07, 2013, 04:10:13 AM
 #15

In short, deflating currency ("represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins") would be hindrance to a growing economy. There will be no incentive for producers to expand production (or even keep it at the same level) since there is a time lag between production (including all steps up to an end-product) and actual disposal of goods through stores - you would buy high and sell low
theonewhowaskazu
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November 07, 2013, 05:25:49 AM
 #16

Tell me, what exactly is bad about an "inelastic" currency?

An "inelastic" currency just means one outside of the control of government agencies, i.e, in the control of the free market. Its ridiculous to think that by pumping more currency into existence you're enriching people. That's just dumb. If you want "more" money, represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins.

In short, deflating currency ("represent your money in terms of Satoshis rather than Bitcoins") would be hindrance to a growing economy. There will be no incentive for producers to expand production (or even keep it at the same level) since there is a time lag between production (including all steps up to an end-product) and actual disposal of goods through stores - you would buy high and sell low

Expanded production makes people richer and comes first, money as such is only a utility, it's secondary to production

This is a completely noob theory for ridiculously obvious reasons.

Consider a scenario in which everybody receives a proportionally equal amount of an inflating money supply. What should be fairly obvious is that this doesn't matter, since you could achieve the same thing by just representing money first in Bitcoins, then in mBTC, then in satoshis, etc...

So, unless you for some reason think the situation above matters, you are proposing a system in which people DON'T receive a proportionally equal share of the "new inflated money." In other words, you seem to be saying that by having a fundamentally unequal system, which is by definition unfair, the economic output would be somehow greater.

An economy doesn't "grow" just because money is being inflated and thus its easy to say "more" money is changing hands and products are worth "more" and our GDP is worth "more." Incentivising expanding production, simply as a store of value, is in fact counterproductive, since it forces people to produce simply to maintain their original wealth-level and thus exceed what would normally be the optimum amount to produce. This means that excess goods are being produced, and in turn that excess real resources are being burned, for no real reason whatsoever.

True wealth is the value of natural resources, and the value of human labour. When you artificially drive up the future value of these resources, you force continued consumption of such resources now, rather than later, when you'll have to pay more for it. This artificial skew causes market inefficiencies that should be fairly obvious. It makes employers not want us to wait and get educated, but work now. It makes consumers not want to save, but spend now. It makes producers not make what the market actually demands, but constantly over-produce, destroying real natural resources, in the hope that people in the FUTURE will hopefully want his product, when he can charge more for it. Human nature already drives us to want things now, there needs to be no further economic incentive to highlight such wasteful tendencies in humanity. If anything, the opposite needs to be encouraged.

deisik
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November 07, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
Last edit: November 07, 2013, 05:49:14 AM by deisik
 #17

Consider a scenario in which everybody receives a proportionally equal amount of an inflating money supply. What should be fairly obvious is that this doesn't matter, since you could achieve the same thing by just representing money first in Bitcoins, then in mBTC, then in satoshis, etc...

I didn't understand what you had meant to say by this snippet (haven't yet read further). What do you mean by "What should be fairly obvious is that this doesn't matter" - what doesn't matter and why should we consider this scenario if you say it (?) doesn't matter? What same thing could we achieve? I don't get your point

Please explain, then we proceed

benjamindees (OP)
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November 07, 2013, 12:24:59 PM
 #18

Consider a scenario in which everybody receives a proportionally equal amount of an inflating money supply. What should be fairly obvious is that this doesn't matter, since you could achieve the same thing by just representing money first in Bitcoins, then in mBTC, then in satoshis, etc...

I didn't understand what you had meant to say by this snippet (haven't yet read further). What do you mean by "What should be fairly obvious is that this doesn't matter" - what doesn't matter and why should we consider this scenario if you say it (?) doesn't matter? What same thing could we achieve? I don't get your point

Please explain, then we proceed

He means that, in that case, the distinction between inflation or stable money supply doesn't matter.  You aren't, in fact, arguing for inflation.  You are arguing for centralized inflation.  You've attempted to justify inflation.  But how do you justify centralization?

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deisik
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November 07, 2013, 12:46:01 PM
 #19

He means that, in that case, the distinction between inflation or stable money supply doesn't matter.  You aren't, in fact, arguing for inflation.  You are arguing for centralized inflation.  You've attempted to justify inflation.  But how do you justify centralization?

What is centralized inflation and centralization here?

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November 07, 2013, 01:13:29 PM
Last edit: November 07, 2013, 01:36:27 PM by deisik
 #20

I think he means there's no difference between raising the value of each unit or creating more units of equal or lower value, the sum is still the same. The difference is in how its created, with a centralised system the increase in units spreads out from a central point with the value of all units falling as it spreads whereas with a fixed amount of units the value rises for all simultaneously. And no, I don't hold any PM's. I should just for diversification but would choose platinum and silver over gold due to their intrinsic value.

It seems I got his point if your guess is correct indeed. If we raise the face value of EACH unit we actually don't change anything and the effects are negligible. It is called redenomination, i.e. changing the face value of a money token, it's done for conveniance primarily. We just write off (or add up) some zeroes, that's all

Creating new units (money supply) has nothing to do with redenomination, you just cannot directly compare these notions. Asking such questions is like asking about the difference/similarity between meters and grams

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