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Author Topic: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia  (Read 3245 times)
Denicen
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July 28, 2011, 06:42:39 PM
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It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others).
I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?
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rainingbitcoins
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July 28, 2011, 06:46:20 PM
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I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns.

Cite: every street gang ever
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July 28, 2011, 06:48:07 PM
 #3

I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns.

Cite: every street gang ever

That will taper of very quickly.

Cite: Charles Darwin.

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JoelKatz
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July 28, 2011, 06:48:59 PM
 #4

Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?
I can't think of any practical scenario where every individual could defend themselves, even against all the other similarly-armed individuals acting together. Are you imagining a scenario where every individual has sufficient nuclear weapons to blow up the entire world? I don't think people would ever let such a situation happen because one crazy person would end human life.

I can't imagine a scenario where every human is capable of defense such that no human is capable of offense.

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rainingbitcoins
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July 28, 2011, 06:56:48 PM
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That will taper of very quickly.

Cite: Charles Darwin.

New violent crazy people are born every day. Smiley

And any system that breeds poverty will always breed crime. Here in the U.S. we lock up more of our own people than any other country on Earth, yet our crime rates are still sky high when compared to anything that's not a Third World hellhole.

"you know you've got to have the
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Reality is the police become necessary in human society only at that junction
In human society where it is split between those who have and those who ain't got. "

--Chairman Omali Yeshitela, as sampled in Police State by Dead Prez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c_UdWo4Zek
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July 28, 2011, 06:59:25 PM
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How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion.  In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot.

End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue.

"However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property."

It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others).
I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?
Denicen
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July 28, 2011, 07:08:18 PM
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Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?
I can't think of any practical scenario where every individual could defend themselves, even against all the other similarly-armed individuals acting together. Are you imagining a scenario where every individual has sufficient nuclear weapons to blow up the entire world? I don't think people would ever let such a situation happen because one crazy person would end human life.

I can't imagine a scenario where every human is capable of defense such that no human is capable of offense.


Ok, let's say that everyone has some sort of suit that makes it impossible for any other person or group of people to harm them in any way. I agree that it is extremely unlikely to ever be possible, but I am just using it as what could be considered an ideal society for a libertarian.
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July 28, 2011, 07:08:33 PM
 #8

I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns.

Cite: every street gang ever

That will taper of very quickly.

Cite: Charles Darwin.

"Very quickly," from an evolutionary standpoint, means 'just a few million years.'

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
Denicen
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July 28, 2011, 07:12:02 PM
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How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion.  In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot.

End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue.

"However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property."

It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others).
I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?


If this were the case, what would prevent me from "protecting" property that belongs to someone else? How does someone adequately say that some piece of property belongs to them? As I said, it would only exist as an agreement.
myrkul
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July 28, 2011, 07:15:37 PM
 #10

That will taper off very quickly.

Cite: Charles Darwin.

New violent crazy people are born every day. Smiley

And any system that breeds poverty will always breed crime. Here in the U.S. we lock up more of our own people than any other country on Earth, yet our crime rates are still sky high when compared to anything that's not a Third World hellhole.

Agreed, but I am of the opinion that violent, crazy people are made, not born, and that with the proper incentives, and the removal of our 'criminal colleges', that production rate can be brought WAY down.

I also contend that the removal of taxation and minimum wage would drastically reduce the amount of poverty, as well, further reducing the production rate.

"Very quickly," from an evolutionary standpoint, means 'just a few million years.'

I'm using it more on the scale of 'the antibacterial resistant bacteria developed very quickly'. Wink

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Denicen
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July 28, 2011, 07:22:42 PM
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How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion.  In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot.

End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue.

"However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property."

It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others).
I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur.

However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice?

Nevermind, just thought about it some more and you are right.
rainingbitcoins
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July 28, 2011, 07:29:39 PM
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Agreed, but I am of the opinion that violent, crazy people are made, not born, and that with the proper incentives, and the removal of our 'criminal colleges', that production rate can be brought WAY down.

Maybe, but as long as Americans value bloodlust and revenge over concrete and verifiable results, that's never going to happen. And we seem to be heading in the opposite direction from that anyway. Joe Arpaio's tent city jail in Arizona has been described as having even worse conditions than Third World jails if you can imagine that.

Quote
I also contend that the removal of taxation and minimum wage would drastically reduce the amount of poverty, as well, further reducing the production rate.

If we could depend on businesses to provide a non-poverty wage for their workers, we wouldn't have a minimum wage to begin with because it'd be unnecessary. People making poverty-level wages now aren't going to get out of poverty if you reduce those wages even further. Some guy who's trying to decide whether he wants to sell dope or make $7 an hour at McDonalds is going to freaking run for those drugs if that 7 turns into a 5 or a 4.
myrkul
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July 28, 2011, 07:37:14 PM
 #13

If we could depend on businesses to provide a non-poverty wage for their workers, we wouldn't have a minimum wage to begin with because it'd be unnecessary. People making poverty-level wages now aren't going to get out of poverty if you reduce those wages even further. Some guy who's trying to decide whether he wants to sell dope or make $7 an hour at McDonalds is going to freaking run for those drugs if that 7 turns into a 5 or a 4.

Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime.

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July 28, 2011, 07:45:41 PM
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Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime.

Oh yeah, that's true. I somehow managed to forget about one of the only parts of libertarianism that's actually a great idea. All drugs should be legal, especially since the vast majority of them are less dangerous than alcohol anyway. Well, you can replace drugs with bank robbery or kidnapping for profit or whatever.
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July 28, 2011, 07:50:16 PM
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Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime.

Oh yeah, that's true. I somehow managed to forget about one of the only parts of libertarianism that's actually a great idea. All drugs should be legal, especially since the vast majority of them are less dangerous than alcohol anyway. Well, you can replace drugs with bank robbery or kidnapping for profit or whatever.

Bank robbery would be tantamount to suicide. Kidnapping not much better. Smart kids would know that, stupid ones would improve the gene pool by exiting.

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July 28, 2011, 08:24:19 PM
 #16

Somalia is a good example of a libertarian utopia.  No state; no restrictions and everyone free to live as they choose.

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July 28, 2011, 08:33:27 PM
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Libertarianism isn't Utopian. What's Utopian is trying to protect yourself from criminals by creating a monopoly on violence while expecting criminals not to take control of that monopoly. What's Utopian is letting the state be the judge of how much authority it has while expecting it not to overstep its bounds. What's Utopian is thinking that people are incapable of governing themselves but are capable of governing others. Libertarians are well in touch with reality, which is why we strive for changes that can have some realistically stable outcomes. Overthrowing evil empires with bloody revolutions only to allow them to build back up again, thinking that one can give others the right to do something one cannot do, thinking that extortion and payment for services rendered are the same, thinking that secession and emigration are the same, those are the products of delusion. No, we're wide awake.

Somalia is a good example of a libertarian utopia.  No state; no restrictions and everyone free to live as they choose.

Right, because Somalia was full of thriving metropolises until it became stateless.
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July 28, 2011, 08:45:22 PM
 #18

Whenever Libertarians say they have a policy idea that will end all wars, hunger and social problems, it turns out the model they are proposing is Somalia.  It doesn't matter what it was like before it because a libertarian utopia; what counts is that all the stuff you guys want in America has already been done in Somalia. 

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July 28, 2011, 08:52:29 PM
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It doesn't matter what it was like before...

Yes, it does.
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July 28, 2011, 08:56:23 PM
 #20

Whenever Libertarians say they have a policy idea that will end all wars, hunger and social problems, it turns out the model they are proposing is Somalia.  It doesn't matter what it was like before it because a libertarian utopia; what counts is that all the stuff you guys want in America has already been done in Somalia. 

So, Where are the private defense firms?

All I see are protection rackets.

Where are the Arbitration contracts?

All I see is Law of the Jungle.

Where is the Anarchy?

All I see are a bunch of petty tyrants.

Anarchy != Chaos.

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