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Poll
Question: do you think pool hopping is ethical?
YES - 39 (66.1%)
NO - 20 (33.9%)
Total Voters: 59

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Author Topic: seriously. its closed. move on.  (Read 12679 times)
cablepair
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August 23, 2011, 02:13:59 PM
 #201

First of all, please understand that we have never and would never manually remove anyone's shares.

As is stated on the main page of this thread

"We pay with a modified share based proportional payout system. The payout system has been hard coded with a mechanism to protect Union members from cheating via excessive pool hopping"

We have hard coded into our system a mechanism based on a math formula. For security reasons I am not going to give you the exact details
but basically if you pool hop excessively your shares are automatically halved.

No one has ever had their shares halved for simply "trying the pool"

I understand that Pool Hopping is a controversial subject right now - and we were recently listed on a article saying we were "pool hop friendly" this is simply not the case.  They assumed that because we do share based proportional payouts that we were pool hop friendly. Many people have called proportional payout broken, and in a sense it is - unless you modify it - which we have.

You can not honestly say that you have triggered this mechanism, lost your shares and you were not pool hopping - if you are trying to say you were not pool hopping I simply do not believe you - we have been using this system since day one of our pool, you are not the first to lose their shares due to hopping and you will probably not be the last.

Please do not be angry at me because you believed an article that said we were pool hop friendly and were not.

I hope I am very clear to everyone, especially those who have invested a lot of time and hashing power on this treacherous third block, I do not want anyone to lose there shares so please do not pool hop at my pool - if you do - you will not be happy.

edit:

I also added "AUTO POOL HOP PROTECTION" to the title of our thread so there is no mistaking this
you do not want to pool hop here.

also I have added a poll, we have been considering switching to PPLNS payout system
and would like everyone's opinon on it
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jpinconline
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August 23, 2011, 02:41:34 PM
 #202

I had been one of the proponents for changing your payout method before, but with mining not being cost effective for me I can only mine every so often usually in the evenings. I am only mining with the union, but not 24/7 and I would hate to see you try a payout method that required 24/7 mining. (which is a complete change of heart for me)

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cablepair
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August 23, 2011, 02:55:29 PM
 #203

thanks for your opinion, jpinconline,

I am not sure where we are going to go, you have been a loyal miner its opinions of guys like you that I really appreciate it - dont worry after talking to my co-admin PPLNS is not going to happen - he simply does not have the time to completely recode everything including our database

I just want this pool to work, we had this idea to make a pool that would appeal to your average bitcoin miner, we have been trying to implement all your input and ideas and make this a pool you would love to mine at.

this pool hopping thing has made a huge division in the mining world and it seems that everyone has to take a side in this - like it or not

we have always had this proportional / decaying shares system but we try not to give out all the details of how it works - as soon as you do that you have people abusing it, but we have always been vocal to the fact that we have a mechanism in place to deter pool hopping.

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August 23, 2011, 03:05:57 PM
 #204

I am currently looking for someone to help me run this pool, someone with vision, with motivation and preferably with your own hashing power.

the co-founder of this pool had to step down because he does not have time for it, he will greatly be missed he was brilliant.

If you think you have what it takes send an email to admin@bitminersunion.org with what you have to offer.

and dont you worry loyal miners no matter what happens we are going to keep this running and get this stubborn 3rd block solved.
jjiimm_64
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August 23, 2011, 05:46:15 PM
 #205


hmmmmmmmmmm,  my shares are going down.  I am pretty sure they were above 424,000.  stats have me at 422k, workers page has me at 414k

Not sure what to think about this..  The pool was down, and I had to leave or burn electricity for nothing.

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August 23, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
 #206

welcome to my world. i lost about 8k shares.

MaGNeT
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August 23, 2011, 05:54:57 PM
 #207

I can't mine 24/7 (mining i0coins and solidcoins too) so your system will see me as a poolhopper.
Got to take my 3Ghash/s somewhere else...
cablepair
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August 23, 2011, 05:57:16 PM
 #208

its the pool hopping protection mechanism or "decaying shares" as the programmer who designed it calls it


the system automatically lowers yours shares based on how long you have been away from the pool
jim it looks like yours were just starting to go away.


I already messaged you on this.

I am going to be honest with everyone - my co-admin who programmed all this stuff backed out, hes a brilliant guy but hes got alot of family and work responsibilities - I was talking about redoing the payment system and he just does not have time for it, its his decision and i respect him for it.

however this is really something I can't run on my own, and no one else is stepping up who wants to take the pool over or help me run it... so

Basically the way it looks now, after this 3rd block is solved im going to close mining on the pool, but I will leave the website and bitcoind running so when the block matures you can still get paid for it

if everyone moved all the mining power they have over and get this block killed it has to be almost dead we are almost at 2.2 mil shares

but thats basically it, i put a lot of time and money into making this work, but without someone to help me with it - its pointless

I am sorry gentleman, lets at least solve this third block so all the time we have spent over the last 4 days was not for nothing

I am sure you will get a good payout for it as well

but if you dont at least keep some miners attached your going to lose some if not all your shares
this is the payout system we have and I have no idea how to even start to change it
i never claimed to be a programmer



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August 23, 2011, 05:57:33 PM
 #209

Hi
is this the new www.bitminersunion.org where an older homepage was (is this the same..)?
I have today new registered, because with this adress and my data from the old one it was impossible to log in.
If this is the same, I would like to know where my old shares (from the old acount) are?
thx
cablepair
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August 23, 2011, 05:58:51 PM
 #210

Hi
is this the new www.bitminersunion.org where an older homepage was (is this the same..)?
I have today new registered, because with this adress and my data from the old one it was impossible to log in.
If this is the same, I would like to know where my old shares (from the old acount) are?
thx

sorry dude your way too late for that, please read page 6 or 7 on the thread

it includes the details for shares from the old pool
MaGNeT
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August 23, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
 #211


if everyone moved all the mining power they have over and get this block killed it has to be almost dead we are almost at 2.2 mil shares

Deepbit had a 16mil block...

Blocking poolhoppers as a small pool isn't smart... At the start of a block, people see the high Ghash rating of your pool and that attracks people.
Now you will be stuck on ~10Ghash/s forever...

When a miner at your pool did 120,000 shares, you can't just say "oh sorry, you left for 12 hours so I decrease your shares"... Shares are shares... If you say "I pay prop", you pay prop...
I'm not saying this to defend "poolhoppers" only, there are people who don't hop and did a lot of shares for this block and if they can't mine for a while you can't just steal there shares... That's what it is...

And if you change these kind of things, tell it in advance... Don't change/tell new rules during a game...

I like what you did to the "old miners" and their shares but this disapoints me... And reading the other responses, I'm not the only one...
hawks5999
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August 23, 2011, 06:11:15 PM
 #212

Would you please add some more poll questions, such as:

Is the profit motive ethical?
YES
NO

Is work ethical?
YES
NO

Is using software ethical?
YES
NO

Is using an advantage in business ethical?
YES
NO

Is laziness (demonstrated by 24/7 mining) ethical?
YES
NO

Is taking a fee as a pool operator ethical?
YES
NO

Is it ethical to shut a pool down, reopen and not transfer balances?
YES
NO

It helps if you have some ethics before you question whether the actions of others are ethical.

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cablepair
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August 23, 2011, 06:35:19 PM
 #213


if everyone moved all the mining power they have over and get this block killed it has to be almost dead we are almost at 2.2 mil shares

Deepbit had a 16mil block...

Blocking poolhoppers as a small pool isn't smart... At the start of a block, people see the high Ghash rating of your pool and that attracks people.
Now you will be stuck on ~10Ghash/s forever...

When a miner at your pool did 120,000 shares, you can't just say "oh sorry, you left for 12 hours so I decrease your shares"... Shares are shares... If you say "I pay prop", you pay prop...
I'm not saying this to defend "poolhoppers" only, there are people who don't hop and did a lot of shares for this block and if they can't mine for a while you can't just steal there shares... That's what it is...

And if you change these kind of things, tell it in advance... Don't change/tell new rules during a game...
* I HAVE NEVER CHANGED THE RULES OR PAYOUT SYSTEM IT HAS STAYED THE SAME SINCE DAY ONE *
I like what you did to the "old miners" and their shares but this disapoints me... And reading the other responses, I'm not the only one...


Magnet: your right, it is possible that this is the most unlucky block in history and it we will submit 20 mil shares before its sovled. That is possible but not probable. We are already above what qualifies for an "average" share block.

the reason my programmer quit on me is beacuse I asked him to code us a new payment system, I have even been talking about coding a pool hopper friendly payment system, but I am not a programmer, and right now I dont have one.

The payment system we use is the same we have always used dude, please read the first page in this thread, I have not changed it since this whole thing happend - and I am sorry it happened like this - but everyone has to realize it is not our fault that some careless person assumed we were a pool hop friendly pool and started posting everywhere that you can pool hop on our pool. They should of dug a little deeper, we have miners who have had decaying shares all the way back on the first block which was solved 6 days ago. This is no secret my friend. I understand everyone expected this to be a pool hop party over here, I read the article myself, they said we were totally vulnerable so that was the expectation everyone had, well it was a mistake on the person who wrote that article and to the people who published us in pool hopping scripts.

but the reality is none of this matters so much now

here are the facts:

a) We have this proportional payout system that has been modified to decay shares the longer you are disconnected from the pool as a means to stop pool hoppers
b) In the midst of this whole pool hopping controversy my programmer and co-admin backed out on me
c) Unless a programmer steps up and decides to co-admin this pool we are shutting down after this block is solved
d) We are at 2.2 mil shares on this block - which when talking about probability we could solve it soon
e) I dont want all these good miners to have wasted their mining time over the last few days - so if you want to make it worth anything please start mining on this block - all I can gaurantee you is I have 2500 m/hash and I will not give up until this block is solved
f) and probably most important I am NOT a programmer and I can not change any of this on my own
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August 23, 2011, 06:55:27 PM
 #214

This thread is hilarious. Started reading it a few minutes ago while the pools was still open and got to the end of thread when it was announced to be discontinued.

I don't want to sound rude. But why in the world should you care about hoppers when you have so much problems yet to solve. Screwing loyal miners by this self-invented anti-hopper measures instead of making fast and reliable pool. I didn't even hop your pool because 1) it was too slow 2) was unable to save my account password with lastpass, so I couldn't remember my PIN.

In my opinion new pools should be eligus-style. No registration, no wasting user's time for passwords and pins. Just fast to start and simple. No antihopper measures until pool can afford to no longer care about few hundred additional ghash boost at every round.
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August 23, 2011, 07:01:29 PM
 #215

Please just shut this pool down now and don't wait. Why wait for more submitted shares from users when you are stealing shares from them? How does that make any sense?   Huh

Pay out the expected and just get out asap. I'm sure all the missing shares from these "hopper" accounts were NOT going back to the other miners in ANY WAY. Just back to your own pockets. And any of the missing shares were not from any type of "system" rather your own shitty judgment you are passing on other miners without warning just to recover your cost of operation that comes with operating a prop pool.

And I could care less about the loss shares because I just consider toftt. Just keep my shares and just get this thieving pool out of the community.
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August 23, 2011, 07:14:26 PM
 #216

Please just shut this pool down now and don't wait. Why wait for more submitted shares from users when you are stealing shares from them? How does that make any sense?   Huh

Pay out the expected and just get out asap. I'm sure all the missing shares from these "hopper" accounts were NOT going back to the other miners in ANY WAY. Just back to your own pockets. And any of the missing shares were not from any type of "system" rather your own shitty judgment you are passing on other miners without warning just to recover your cost of operation that comes with operating a prop pool.

And I could care less about the loss shares because I just consider toftt. Just keep my shares and just get this thieving pool out of the community.
+1

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August 23, 2011, 07:15:19 PM
 #217

i have paid our far more than any of you could possibly lose by pool hopping here.

I have spent hundreds of dollars promoting this pool - the first week I was paying out daily reward payments to all miners who had 100 mhash or more to contribute.

I literally spent all I had to promote this pool 100% of it went directly to the miners them selves. If you were an actual miner at this pool you would know that.

there are two options miners have

you can either cut your losses and just go mine somewhere else
or you can try and help me solve this last block so the mining time you spent over the last 4 days is not in vain

whatever choice you make I will respect it.

but those are literally the only two options and I have absolutely no way to change this.
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August 23, 2011, 07:23:49 PM
 #218

Reading threads about pools that goes south in similar fashion just makes me sad Cry

Mandatory?  123ABCcirz8CcieVh9UwThEX2vkoJF33Te
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August 23, 2011, 08:25:49 PM
 #219

Rfcpool.com just re-opened.  I'm headed back there.
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August 23, 2011, 09:03:10 PM
 #220

Rfcpool.com just re-opened.  I'm headed back there.

really? with N=0.5? good luck making any coin

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