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Author Topic: Public Message for Tradehill  (Read 3062 times)
delson
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July 31, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
 #1

I am disappointed that you have removed Dwolla withdrawals as per your blog post today, without any prior notice.

This is not a good business practice. When you have many customers with a USD balance in their account (and may not want to convert back into bitcoins for transfer), you want to give them ample notice that you are no longer accepting a cash out method.

It was reasonable that you took down Dwolla deposits into Tradehill as that was resulting in direct loss on your end, forged statements, etc. However, that is a different issue because you are talking about deposits, not withdrawals. Some people depend on one method of getting the money out of your system, like me. Liberty Reserve is too difficult to manage due the number of shady exchange sites and high wire fees. Regular direct bank wires are expensive.  Paxium charges ridiculous fees, seem greedy, are involved with some (at least in my opinion) shady industries, and require a large amount of personal information to be sent. Dwolla costs $0.25.

You feel the need to make your users safe, and that is fine. However, you have went about it the wrong way. You should have made an announcement stating that you planned on discontinuing all Dwolla withdrawals, and provided a date on which this change would take place (say at least a week or two out). Then you should process all of those withdrawals in that period before the cut off date. This gives customers ample time to prepare for the change. As far as I am aware (correct me if I am wrong), processing Dwolla withdrawals does not put you in danger of losing more money. Therefore, it was completely irresponsible to do this.

I am sure many of you think Dwolla is a total scam, and completely back Tradehill up. The problem with their decision was not the idea removing Dwolla withdrawals, but not giving customers any real notice ahead of time. It is a real shame.

You still have a chance to fix this. Reopen Dwolla withdrawals for a few days at the very least. Allow users to withdraw their funds using that method until a specific deadline/cut off date. At that point, remove it.

-DS

Additional Edit: They also should have sent a mass email to all customers regarding this major change. I looked at the USD withdrawal options and was absolutely puzzled. A blog, linked with a tiny link at the bottom of the page...is not the proper place to announce very major changes in service. At least email your customers. All major business institutions send notices to customers regarding changes in service. When your bank (and I am using this as an example because Tradehill at least acts like a "fund storage" service) changes rules on withdrawals or deposits, you receive an email with dates on when said policy goes into place...and also a postal letter in addition to that. They don't make a post on Twitter or some blog without using means listed above when they change their policies, do they?
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NF6X
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July 31, 2011, 01:42:22 AM
 #2

It was explained in the "Open questions..." thread that Dwolla withdrawals are also risky:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=33086.msg413909#msg413909

It sounds to me like Tradehill did what they had to do to protect both themselves and their customers.
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July 31, 2011, 01:44:48 AM
 #3

I just requested my btc balance be sent to my wallet.

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delson
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July 31, 2011, 01:48:18 AM
 #4

Did they have a negative balance? Or is that speculation for the future? I didn't see that stated as a reason anywhere in their official blog post. If there wasn't an immediate danger, it still would be proper to give customers at least some notice before removing it.

They also should have sent a mass email to all customers regarding this major change. I looked at the USD withdrawal options and was absolutely puzzled. A blog, linked with a tiny link at the bottom of the page...is not the proper place to announce very major changes in service. At least email your customers. All major business institutions send notices to customers regarding changes in service. When your bank (and I am using this as an example because Tradehill at least acts like a "fund storage" service) changes rules on withdrawals or deposits, you receive an email with dates on when said policy goes into place...and also a postal letter in addition to that. They don't make a post on Twitter or some blog without using means listed above when they change their policies, do they?

Also, is Joel an official Tradehill employee? If this wasn't speculation regarding the negative balance, why does a non-employee have insider information regarding their situation with Dwolla?
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July 31, 2011, 01:52:06 AM
 #5

Also, is Joel an official Tradehill employee? If this wasn't speculation regarding the negative balance, why does a non-employee have insider information regarding their situation with Dwolla?

It's not that difficult to come up with that on your own.

You need to realize that what TradeHill did was for your benefit, not theirs.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

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delson
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July 31, 2011, 01:55:08 AM
 #6

Also, is Joel an official Tradehill employee? If this wasn't speculation regarding the negative balance, why does a non-employee have insider information regarding their situation with Dwolla?

It's not that difficult to come up with that on your own.

You need to realize that what TradeHill did was for your benefit, not theirs.


Let us say I am a bank. I have thousands of customers who use online banking for a variety of reasons. One day, as the CEO and decision maker for the company...I decide that to protect my users I must disable online banking as it is too easy for people to be keylogged and have their accounts hacked into.

So guess what, I am going to just pull the plug.

Oops. I just lost a large amount of business because my customers relied on online banking, and had no notice to prepare for the change. I know if I was a customer and that happened to me, I would be extremely angry at the bank and close my account the next day. Personally.
wolftaur
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July 31, 2011, 01:59:41 AM
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Let us say I am a bank. I have thousands of customers who use online banking for a variety of reasons. One day, as the CEO and decision maker for the company...I decide that to protect my users I must disable online banking as it is too easy for people to be keylogged and have their accounts hacked into.

So guess what, I am going to just pull the plug.

Oops. I just lost a large amount of business because my customers relied on online banking, and had no notice to prepare for the change.

If you're going to be hypothetical, at least actually come up with a situation that isn't massively different in a way that was clearly chosen to favor your argument...

How about you try a logical analogy, instead of an intentionally incorrect one?

Let us say you are a store. You have thousands of customers who order online with all the gift cards they got given for birthdays. One day, you discover that UPS is stealing large numbers of the packages you ship out, so you drop them as a carrier.

Gee, you look like a lot less of a jerk in the hypothetical when your decision was based on someone else's action...

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
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July 31, 2011, 01:59:50 AM
 #8

Also, is Joel an official Tradehill employee? If this wasn't speculation regarding the negative balance, why does a non-employee have insider information regarding their situation with Dwolla?

It's not that difficult to come up with that on your own.

You need to realize that what TradeHill did was for your benefit, not theirs.


Let us say I am a bank. I have thousands of customers who use online banking for a variety of reasons. One day, as the CEO and decision maker for the company...I decide that to protect my users I must disable online banking as it is too easy for people to be keylogged and have their accounts hacked into.

So guess what, I am going to just pull the plug.

Oops. I just lost a large amount of business because my customers relied on online banking, and had no notice to prepare for the change.

Dude your parable dosen't equally equate with the point your trying to make. Try again....
TradeHill removed one of their many withdrawal methods, they didn't, as you say, "just pull the plug"

Now, you may argue that Dwolla is one of their more popular methods. Again, I agree with you.
You may think that TradeHill's methods of contact are wrong, but thats your opinion.

In reality, word gets out on these forums alot faster than most places I know  Wink

 

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Smalleyster
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July 31, 2011, 02:03:07 AM
 #9

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

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July 31, 2011, 02:04:14 AM
 #10

They took action to plug a fraud hole that had already cost them tens of thousands of dollars. They also promised to spend their own money to make sure that their customers won't directly lose any of that money. As a result, some people are temporarily inconvenienced. Get over it.
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July 31, 2011, 02:06:30 AM
 #11

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

I've read your posts and I honestly don't understand what TradeHill did wrong to you.
All I read is how much you hate them and pulling your money out.
May I ask why?

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delson
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July 31, 2011, 02:08:00 AM
 #12

Let us say I am a bank. I have thousands of customers who use online banking for a variety of reasons. One day, as the CEO and decision maker for the company...I decide that to protect my users I must disable online banking as it is too easy for people to be keylogged and have their accounts hacked into.

So guess what, I am going to just pull the plug.

Oops. I just lost a large amount of business because my customers relied on online banking, and had no notice to prepare for the change.

If you're going to be hypothetical, at least actually come up with a situation that isn't massively different in a way that was clearly chosen to favor your argument...

How about you try a logical analogy, instead of an intentionally incorrect one?

Let us say you are a store. You have thousands of customers who order online with all the gift cards they got given for birthdays. One day, you discover that UPS is stealing large numbers of the packages you ship out, so you drop them as a carrier.

Gee, you look like a lot less of a jerk in the hypothetical when your decision was based on someone else's action...

If I was losing money in the process of shipping these packages, then I would understand dropping them as a carrier. If it was the customers entire responsibility, and they had to deal with UPS themselves, then I would do the correct thing and provide a notice ahead of time before removing the option to ship via UPS.

Is Tradehill losing money by allowing withdrawals via Dwolla? No.

May I lose money by using Dwolla, if these claims turn out to be true and Dwolla is a scam? Yes.

Is it my responsibility if I lose money in my Dwolla account? Yes.

Is it Tradehill's responsibility? No. They send the money, then at that point it is on me. So fine, they can act like the "good guys" and stop the withdrawals. At least give me some notice.

They took action to plug a fraud hole that had already cost them tens of thousands of dollars. They also promised to spend their own money to make sure that their customers won't directly lose any of that money. As a result, some people are temporarily inconvenienced. Get over it.

It isn't a "temporary inconvenience" when you are dealing with people's money. It is a major inconvenience, and a bad business practice.

Also, is Joel an official Tradehill employee? If this wasn't speculation regarding the negative balance, why does a non-employee have insider information regarding their situation with Dwolla?

It's not that difficult to come up with that on your own.

You need to realize that what TradeHill did was for your benefit, not theirs.


Let us say I am a bank. I have thousands of customers who use online banking for a variety of reasons. One day, as the CEO and decision maker for the company...I decide that to protect my users I must disable online banking as it is too easy for people to be keylogged and have their accounts hacked into.

So guess what, I am going to just pull the plug.

Oops. I just lost a large amount of business because my customers relied on online banking, and had no notice to prepare for the change.


TradeHill removed one of their many withdrawal methods, they didn't, as you say, "just pull the plug"
 


So if as a bank I decide one day without notice to not allow ATM deposits/withdrawals and online banking transactions to move money in and out of a bank account, but still allow teller transactions (hey, it is still a deposit/withdrawal method...) it makes it okay?
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July 31, 2011, 02:11:41 AM
 #13

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

I've read your posts and I honestly don't understand what TradeHill did wrong to you.
All I read is how much you hate them and pulling your money out.
May I ask why?

You have read my posts and came up with that conclusion? May I suggest you go back and re-read them, this time for content?

I *love* how open they (TH) have been during this process. I take Dwolla as the bad guy here. But the fact is I have no safe way to get money into or out of TradeHill now unless I am willing to write a check for $5,000. I don't have those kinds of funds available to me nowadays.

Please note this question, to which I *fully* expected that both questions would be answered with a resounding "YES NO PROBLEM". Instead I got a smartassed retort ABOUT NEEDING A MINIMUM OF $5,000!

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=33086.msg413819#msg413819

Sheesh!

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July 31, 2011, 02:17:37 AM
 #14

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

I've read your posts and I honestly don't understand what TradeHill did wrong to you.
All I read is how much you hate them and pulling your money out.
May I ask why?

You have read my posts and came up with that conclusion? May I suggest you go back and re-read them, this time for content?

I *love* how open they (TH) have been during this process. I take Dwolla as the bad guy here. But the fact is I have no safe way to get money into or out of TradeHill now unless I am willing to write a check for $10,000. I don't have those kinds of funds available to me nowadays.

Sheesh!

Some people would consider a Wire transfer safe, but not you....

Quote
Please note this question, to which I *fully* expected that both questions would be answered with a resounding "YES NO PROBLEM". Instead I got a smartassed retort ABOUT NEEDING A MINIMUM OF $5,000!

Instead of trying to get special treatment and making a stupid public post, why don't you email or skype them and wait like everyone else.

Sheesh!


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delson
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July 31, 2011, 02:19:28 AM
 #15

I once again reiterate...I know there are at least several others with similar concerns as mine.

Tradehill- If possible....you managed to hold onto Dwolla withdrawals for a little while after discontinuing deposits. Email all users, and at least give them a few days to make their final Dwolla withdrawals. At that point, you can be completely done with it.
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July 31, 2011, 02:21:18 AM
 #16

at least give them a few days to make their final Dwolla withdrawals. At that point, you can be completely done with it.

Although I would LOVE for this to be the case, its just not possible. We're talking about hundrends of thousands of dollars. Should TradeHill risk all these funds and trust Dwolla when they have already screwed us?

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

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Smalleyster
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July 31, 2011, 02:21:25 AM
 #17

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

I've read your posts and I honestly don't understand what TradeHill did wrong to you.
All I read is how much you hate them and pulling your money out.
May I ask why?

You have read my posts and came up with that conclusion? May I suggest you go back and re-read them, this time for content?

I *love* how open they (TH) have been during this process. I take Dwolla as the bad guy here. But the fact is I have no safe way to get money into or out of TradeHill now unless I am willing to write a check for $10,000. I don't have those kinds of funds available to me nowadays.

Sheesh!

Some people would consider a Wire transfer safe, but not you....


I am not "some people". I have initiated scored of wire transfers, most of which have been less than satisfying processes, especially when considering the fees involved. I have also initiated scores of transactions with four different brokerage houses who all accepted my mailed checks and mailed me checks gladly at NO EXTRA CHARGE.

Accepting and providing checks is special treatment? Remind me not to do business with you sir.

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July 31, 2011, 02:23:33 AM
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Just piping in to say: thanks a ton for the notice TH, really lovely of you ... o_O
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July 31, 2011, 02:25:58 AM
 #19

...and that's why I felt compelled to pull my admittedly meager funds out immediately.

Sadly I will be contacting all those that I have recommended TH to to recant.

How embarassing two in one week! Sheesh.

I've read your posts and I honestly don't understand what TradeHill did wrong to you.
All I read is how much you hate them and pulling your money out.
May I ask why?

You have read my posts and came up with that conclusion? May I suggest you go back and re-read them, this time for content?

I *love* how open they (TH) have been during this process. I take Dwolla as the bad guy here. But the fact is I have no safe way to get money into or out of TradeHill now unless I am willing to write a check for $10,000. I don't have those kinds of funds available to me nowadays.

Sheesh!

Some people would consider a Wire transfer safe, but not you....


I am not "some people". I have initiated scored of wire transfers, most of which have been less than satisfying processes, especially when considering the fees involved. I have also initiated scores of transactions with four different brokerage houses who all accepted my mailed checks and mailed me checks gladly at NO EXTRA CHARGE.

TradeHill is not a brokerage house.
However, under the Dwolla circumstances I do agree with you. They should temporarily figure out a way to accommodate you.
Have you tried contacting them directly? I know from experience they will jump over hoops for their customers.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
delson
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July 31, 2011, 02:27:15 AM
 #20

at least give them a few days to make their final Dwolla withdrawals. At that point, you can be completely done with it.

Although I would LOVE for this to be the case, its just not possible. We're talking about hundrends of thousands of dollars. Should TradeHill risk all these funds and trust Dwolla when they have already screwed us?

Really? Again, assuming that Dwolla has not given Tradehill's account a complete negative balance (which they have not reported officially), how is Tradehill "risking all of these funds" by doing the following:

User A withdraws $1000 USD via Dwolla to Dwolla account xxx-xxx-xxx.

Tradehill adds $1000 USD funds to Dwolla account via bank transfer, sends money to User A.

User A withdraws money into personal bank account.

Done. Assuming Tradehill does not have a negative balance, they can do this just fine.
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