Ripple competition

[bitcoinBull]

There's no way the Chinese will be interested in Ripple over Bitcoin - if they truly are interested in moving away from USD, then they would be more likely to get behind Bitcoin than an american company's version.

Actually the CNY gateway cap has jumped over the past month (from 250k CNY in october to 539k CNY currently, mostly at rippleCN), and I'm seeing a lot more CNY trades, so volume has increased too. Still a lot less than BTCChina, obviously, but it is spilling over. Stefan Thomas (ripple CTO) gave the keynote speech about Ripple at SDCC (software developer china conference) in Beijing a few months ago, microsoft VPs were among the other speakers.

Ripple has no elevator pitch. The system is way too complicated. I also don't like it being a debt based system. Isn't it the debt based monetary system that created all this trouble in the first place?

Ripple's "killer app" right now is moving fiat between bitcoin exchanges. Ripple is an alternative to bank transfers, because you can hold gateway funds in any currency and transfer them (not just BTC), much quicker and easier than a wire transfer. Don't be surprised when more bitcoin exchanges become ripple gateways, bitstamp is just the first.

Its also misunderstood as debt based. Mostly because the "ripple classic" (which existed years before bitcoin) design was around community-based chains of credit (LETS local exchange trading system). Jed McCaleb & co-founders bought the ripple.com domain name from Ryan Fuggers. But they are building a much simpler network, where the trust lines are extended to gateways (the bitcoin exchanges) rather than community-lenders, and funds are backed by deposits (not debt/credit). But yea it is easy to confuse, especially for people who had first heard of ripple-classic (classic.ripplepay.com).

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[seleme]

I have 600k XRP and would definitely welcome it exploding..

I could, however, understand arguments from anti-ripple group. I don't like it being centralized and one entity holding most of it, they can do whatever they want with the price. And it's easier for governments to control.

On other side, their platform is brilliant and transactions outperform Bitcoin by several magnitudes. And the most important thing I like about Ripple is that from the beginning it has a sense of a real company and that could have a major role in making it big, and attracting investors and service providers. It's already happening and it's still very early.

All in all I am very, very bullish about Ripple.

I like the article though, great thing for crypto world in general. People hear about Bitcoin all the time but they don't have a chance to see a link to coinmarketcap.com and find about alts too in mainstream media.

[afbitcoins]

Oh no here we go again. Time for another  Ripple debate is it.   

Financial institutions will support Ripple, because it can be centrally controlled. There is no surprise to me at all in that statement. If Ripple does not succeed then banks will support the next fully centrally controllable debt based version of something thats a little bit like bitcoins to try and hoodwink the populace to swap free money for controlled money. Its exactly the converse of why they will never get behind bitcoins which cannot be centrally controlled. Which incidentally is what gives bitcoin such tremendous value to humanity.

Not sure I can be bothered with the argument again though. Ripples you can keep it.

[seleme]

Someone asked is 100 billion final cap. Yes, you could read it on this article too:

As with bitcoin, a finite number of ripple will be created — 100 billion.

[Carlton Banks]

Hooray, let's replace the debt backed monetary system with.... an obligation backed monetary system! Wait.... that's suspiciously similar to debt based....

[MAbtc]

I think Ripple could be useful. A liquid network of gateways could vastly improve the efficiency of mobile/web payments generally, and I see no reason why bitcoin can't benefit from Ripple adoption. I think the goal is not decentralization but distribution, and there is some merit to that. As for XRP... I profited a few coins on XRP but I am not comfortable holding it long term. The most I'd ever need is a couple hundred--and with its centralized distribution, it's a crazy speculative gamble that I want no part of. I do like the idea of Ripple as a protocol, but OpenCoin/RippleLabs sort of make me sick, and I also think they shot themselves in the foot by dragging their feet on open sourcing.

[bitcoinBull]

XRP is 100% "pre-mined" and controlled by a couple of big businesses, so, anyone who invest there - are just participating in another yet Ponzi scheme.

Well it obviously makes little sense to compare XRP to a mineable alt-coin. It is more comparable to shares in a company stock. AAPL, EBAY (paypal), TWTR, etc.

IMO it is actually less ponzi-like than traditional company shares with IPO price-rigging, dilution, fraudulent accounting, and so on. And it is a lot less ponzi-like than some of the alt-coins which are raising funds on little more than overhyped proposals and lists of desired features - in one word: vaporware. While Ripple actually exists, has gateways, growing liquidity, and is already useful.

Hooray, let's replace the debt backed monetary system with.... an obligation backed monetary system! Wait.... that's suspiciously similar to debt based....

When you deposit funds to a bitcoin exchange, be it USD or BTC, the exchange is "obligated" to give it back when you want to withdraw (redeem). Its the exact same situation with ripple gateways (which is why some bitcoin exchanges are also already ripple gateways). Except on ripple you can trade and transfer deposits of any currency: USD, EUR, BTC, LTC... I love cold hard coin as much as anyone. But sometimes one wants to move USD around to different exchanges (e.g. to arbitrage price differences), and that's what Ripple does.

[seleme]

Damn, I am really stupid sometimes, never thought about arbitrage with Ripple... now if only some other BTC exchanges would start being Ripple gateways it would be brilliant.

[seleme]

Technically? No idea.

[bitcoinBull]

Someone asked is 100 billion final cap. Yes, you could read it on this article too:

As with bitcoin, a finite number of ripple will be created — 100 billion.

How is that enforced?

By (open-source) code, which cryptographically verifies changes to the ledger (like bitcoin does for changes to the blockchain). The ledger started at 100B, decreasing from there.

ripplebot on ledger #3297478. Total: 99,999,998,515.225847/XRP

[Coinseeker]

That's really a choice for the people to make wouldn't you say?  We do still care about freedom right?

Yes but we care about Bitcoin's price too.

So we should care if something better than Bitcoin (i.e. which is more likely to be choosen by the market) exist.

What I care about is people being free from a corrupt banking system, with the freedom to choose superior currencies and stores of value.  If that includes Bitcoin, so be it.  If people choose something else, so be it.  I have no interest in individuals selfish desires to get rich, over the freedom of everyday currency users.  If Bitcoin is indeed a superior currency to USD, EUR or anything else, people will choose it out of free will.  If not, they will choose something else.  The question is, do you really believe Bitcoin is a superior currency?  If so, what are you worried about?

None of this has anything to do with Ripple. Ripple is a payment network that allows people to utilize any currency they choose.  So from that aspect, Ripple is currency agnostic.  If some peoples desire is to rid the world of all currencies and just replace them with Bitcoin, then that sounds alot like communism and I reject such a plan.  I like choice and when sending and receiving, I like the flexiblity to do so in any currency, in an instant.  That ability only makes Bitcoin that much better.  If it is indeed superior to government fiat, which I do believe it is.

Another thing to note from the comments in this thread, is how many people still think Ripple = XRP.  Ripple is a payment network and decentralized distributed exchange.  XRP is the currency built into the network, to prevent spam and yes, it does have the ability to be valuable one day.  Although speculating on XRP is EXTREMELY RISKY.  There is nothing that says it will be.  In either case, if you don't like XRP for one of several reasons, don't use it.  Aside from account minimums, you are not required to hold XRP.  Just like you are not required to hold USD, EUR, YEN, LTC or any other currency.  Ripple provides choice and a payment network, worthy of the awesomeness of crypto currencies, like Bitcoin.

It doesn't much matter if you believe it or not, it's still happening.  All the FUD in the world didn't stop it from open sourcing and all the FUD in the world is not going to stop the world from embracing it. Soon you will be using platforms that are built on Ripple and you won't even know it.  It is an amazing time for the future of digital currency and payments.

[ArticMine]

Ripple is a hybrid system between:

1) The traditional banking / payment methods such as banks, wire transfers, credit cards, web based services such as  PayPal, E-gold, Liberty Reserve, Western Union, Moneygram, Hawala etc.

and

2) Bitcoin and other cypto-currencies.

In the first model the sender pays the funds to a trusted provider who in turn pays the funds to the receiver directly or in many cases indirectly via one or more other trusted providers. In the second model the sender pays the funds directly to the receiver with no trusted intermediary needed.

With Ripple the sender pays the funds to a trusted provider, the senders gateway. The sender then sends the sender's gateway's credits to the receiver via a crypto-currency as in 2 above, who then either:

1) Gets paid by the sender's gateway.

or

2) Gets paid by a gateway who trusts the sender's gateway.

I can see there are situations where this can be an advantage over 1) or 2) above; however it will not replace either 1) or 2) above. In short it will complement rather than compete with Bitcoin.

[BldSwtTrs]

What I care about is people being free from a corrupt banking system, with the freedom to choose superior currencies and stores of value.  If that includes Bitcoin, so be it.  If people choose something else, so be it.  I have no interest in individuals selfish desires to get rich, over the freedom of everyday currency users.  If Bitcoin is indeed a superior currency to USD, EUR or anything else, people will choose it out of free will.  If not, they will choose something else.  The question is, do you really believe Bitcoin is a superior currency?  If so, what are you worried about?

I believe in free market too (not in free will but that's another story).

I just want to know what is the potential market shares of the stuff in what I am investing my money (indivuals with selfish desires to get rich is what makes free market works)

None of this has anything to do with Ripple. Ripple is a payment network that allows people to utilize any currency they choose.  So from that aspect, Ripple is currency agnostic.  If some peoples desire is to rid the world of all currencies and just replace them with Bitcoin, then that sounds alot like communism and I reject such a plan.  I like choice and when sending and receiving, I like the flexiblity to do so in any currency, in an instant.  That ability only makes Bitcoin that much better.  If it is indeed superior to government fiat, which I do believe it is.

It not because we discuss about wether Ripple is a competitor or not that it implies we are against competition.

Another thing to note from the comments in this thread, is how many people still think Ripple = XRP.  Ripple is a payment network and decentralized distributed exchange.  XRP is the currency built into the network, to prevent spam and yes, it does have the ability to be valuable one day.  Although speculating on XRP is EXTREMELY RISKY.  There is nothing that says it will be.  In either case, if you don't like XRP for 1 of several reasons, don't use it.  It aside from account minimums, you are not required to hold XRP.  Just like you are not required to hold USD, EUR, YEN, LTC or any other currency.  Ripple provides choice and a payment network, worthy of the awesomeness of crypto currencies, like Bitcoin.

Why do you think speculating on XRP is extremely risky? You mean riskier than speculating on Bitcoin?

[mmeijeri]

Why would you use Bitcoin to send value overseas when instead you can use fiat with Ripple?
Why would you use Bitcoin to purchase online stuff when instead you can use fiat with Ripple?

Some wouldn't, and that's fine it it's their choice. But if you use fiat IOUs you are still at the mercy of governments and central banks. If you use cryptocurrencies (Bitcoin, Ripple's own XRP, or whatever) you aren't. The fiat IOU payment system is then still a great way to get your hands on cryptocurrencies and to help accelerate their adoption.

It's important to realise that Ripple is really several systems rolled into one:

- XRP, a cryptocurrency much like bitcoin
- a fiat IOU payment system
- a distributed exchange which can be used for any currency, crypto or otherwise

Also people calling Ripple centralized, but is that true?

No, that's a lie.

It's also a P2P network, could he work if Ripple Lab were shut down?

Absolutely. In fact, their business depends on the network being able to survive the demise of Ripple Labs. Making Ripple dependent on Ripple Labs would have meant painting a larege target on their backs. Since Ripple Labs can no longer take down the Ripple network, governments will have much less of a motive to go after them, even if they did want to go after the Ripple network. Some of the people behind Ripple learned a hard lesson when eDonkey, an earlier company they were working on was taken down in order to take down its network.

[Coinseeker]

I just want to know what is the potential market shares of the stuff in what I am investing my money (indivuals with selfish desires to get rich is what makes free market works)

As I said, investing in XRP is risky.  My comments have never been about XRP, until the end of the last post to address multiple comments.  My interest is in the payment network and distributed exchange.  That's what matters.

It not because we discuss about wether Ripple is a competitor or not that it implies we are against competition.

Who is "we"?  I quoted the comments from the person I was directing my comments at.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question but again, since my previous comments that caused the response, never once mentioned XRP, I fail to see how my description of Ripple could be considered as Bitcoin competition.  

Why do you think speculating on XRP is extremely risky? You mean riskier than speculating on Bitcoin?

For several reasons and many that are consistent with Bitcoin and obvious to us all.  But more specifically, there is nothing that says XRP will significantly increase in value.  XRP doesn't need to increase in value for the Ripple network to succeed or function as it should.  What's more important is consistent values, for market makers.  XRP may reach parity one day or it may remain simply spam prevention.  Again, because Ripple the payment network doesn't require XRP to be ridiculously valued, makes it very risky IMO.  I will add though, IMO, I think the risk vs reward is tremendous, especially given todays XRP prices and because of that, I do hold a little XRP.

[Carlton Banks]

Spare us the earnest explanations, Ripple is just a way of recording all your financial transactions as obligations and swapping them with other Ripple users. It enables you to do nothing that wasn't already possible using cryptocurrency, exchanges and the fiat system. In fact, you can do less with it, as it seeks to act as a go between for these systems, but there are no well known fiat institutions or exchanges that work with Ripple. And even if there were, you have to use the real systems it is piggybacking anyway, otherwise the obligations you've created can't be fulfilled.

Complete waste of time.

[Coinseeker]

Spare us the earnest explanations, Ripple is just a way of recording all your financial transactions as obligations and swapping them with other Ripple users. It enables you to do nothing that wasn't already possible using cryptocurrency, exchanges and the fiat system. In fact, you can do less with it, as it seeks to act as a go between for these systems, but there are no well known fiat institutions or exchanges that work with Ripple. And even if there were, you have to use the real systems it is piggybacking anyway, otherwise the obligations you've created can't be fulfilled.

Complete waste of time.

Ripple federates payment networks much the way SMTP did for email.  The ability to send Gox -> Btce -> Stamp -> Bank, absolutely does not exist in a way that is instant. If it did, you wouldn't have these crazy spreads between exchanges but arbitrage opportunities are too slow and expensive.  It would take weeks the way you describe it and the costs would be ridiculous.  Now it's true, no banks have yet come on board but patience Daniel San.  Ripple has only been open sourced what, a month?  A little more?  Either way, Ripple is here to stay and the crypto space is better for it.  

[Rygon]

So far, the only example of usefulness of Ripple in this thread is to support arbitrage across exchanges, but only if those exchanges accept Ripple.  I understand that would be extremely useful for traders who regularly trade in multiple currencies.

But why should the average Bitcoin user, who only has one type of fiat, bitcoins, and does some light trading on one exchange (coinbase/bitstampl/btcchina) even care about Ripple? Should they be lobbying their fiat banking institution to get connected to the Ripple network so that they can trade easier at international exchanges?

[600watt]

lol, it has the word "rip"(off) in its name.

r.i.p.

[bitcoinBull]

Spare us the earnest explanations, Ripple is just a way of recording all your financial transactions as obligations and swapping them with other Ripple users. It enables you to do nothing that wasn't already possible using cryptocurrency, exchanges and the fiat system. In fact, you can do less with it, as it seeks to act as a go between for these systems, but there are no well known fiat institutions or exchanges that work with Ripple. And even if there were, you have to use the real systems it is piggybacking anyway, otherwise the obligations you've created can't be fulfilled.

Complete waste of time.

One cool aspect is that you can see the total bitstamp funds held on ripple (current bitstamp gateway cap is $357k USD and 2,703 BTC). Before ripple, the only other way you could estimate the total USD or BTC funds on an exchange was by adding up the total bids and asks visible on the order book. When an exchange becomes a ripple gateway, it gets more transparent. Its pretty neat being able to watch the total fiat funds moving in and out through ripple (kind of like the early excitement i had watching btc transactions move around on the blockchain at bitcoinmonitor.com). Its as if you worked at the bank and had access to bitstamp bank account records (just a partial view though - only the fund movement through ripple). IMO the gateway cap is also a very useful indicator for speculating, both on BTC price but even moreso on XRP price. e.g. if bitstamp.USD is being redeemed and deposited back to bitstamp, then somebody is probably planning to buy BTC (and vise-versa XRP).