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Author Topic: 2013-11-13 Forbes: Sanitizing Bitcoin: Company Wants To Track 'Clean' Bitcoins  (Read 4444 times)
Arvicco
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November 13, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
Last edit: November 13, 2013, 08:47:46 PM by Arvicco
 #1

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

From the comments:
Quote
This service is extremely dangerous as it undermines one of the key characteristics of Bitcoin as a MONEY: their complete fungibility. Further, since all Bitcoin transactions are public and pseudonymity given by opaque addresses is our ONLY financial privacy protection, services like this should be considered a direct and malicious attack on Bitcoin system.

I suppose the CORRECT response of the community should be to BOYCOTT any business that even remotely associates itself with this evil spynet.

By now, you should probably know enough about Avalon's dishonest and deceptive business practices to boycott it on its own merits, anyway...

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November 13, 2013, 05:36:26 PM
 #2

Quote
He predicts in the future that every user will have at least one address that’s self identified, “or at least every user who wants to do business in the U.S.”

Oh dear. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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November 13, 2013, 05:51:56 PM
 #3

As far as I understand what they're trying to do is write a piece of software, sell it to "the government" and convince them that this'll solve their troubles with bitcoin enabling illegal activities and tax dodging.

Sounds like a solid business plan, there are a lot of companies out there selling software of that kind, like tracking ebay sellers for the IRS and stuff.

If they get it to work, it'll catch a large share of the uninformed masses just using bitcoin on common platforms. There's no way though it'll stop anyone from staying in the dark. That's why, in the end, this is snake-oil-software, no more, no less.

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November 13, 2013, 06:50:07 PM
 #4

Interesting note about someone in the Mellon family has bought some Bitcoins. Seems like there is a new article every week about someone notable in the top 1% who has bought into bitcoin. I think it's a lot more widespread than news reports, but the financial elite are keeping hush until they finish buying their stash.
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November 13, 2013, 06:58:49 PM
 #5

i agree. i would not use such a service.

"With Coin Validation, he’s proposing a centralized tracking system that he knows won’t sit well with some hardliners in the community."

iam not a hardliner, but he can track his ass, not mine.

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November 13, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
 #6

It's only an overlay service, it can't be forced on anyone. I really don't know how they're expecting to be able to offer any definitive proof of illegal activity connected to certain outputs anyway (except by starting off by calling everything in the network tainted or unknown). How they're planning to deal with coinjoin and SCIP, I'm not really sure. I expect they've barely heard of them.

Forbes need to stop promoting this sort of thing. And to say they're "just reporting" is highly disingenuous. A taint tracking service can't get off the ground without communicating their existence, they have a real chicken and egg problem, with very little incentive to participate. This company is currently a website with no customers.

Besides, why aren't they offering the same service for cash in the US? Is it because no-one taking cash would be keen on helping them to make that work? Government mandate is the only thing that can get this well and truly off the ground.

Oh, and once again, Kashmir Hill go home. "Ignoramus" is giving way to "establishment shill".

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November 13, 2013, 07:04:41 PM
 #7

i agree. i would not use such a service.

"With Coin Validation, he’s proposing a centralized tracking system that he knows won’t sit well with some hardliners in the community."

iam not a hardliner, but he can track his ass, not mine.

This is the sort of Machiavellian rhetorical language being employed by Kashmir Hill. "Hardliners" like the creator of the whole system? She should get as close to zero traffic as we can give her. Jon Matonis was basically ousted from the Forbes roster, in favour of this sort of angle.

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November 13, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
Last edit: November 13, 2013, 07:39:40 PM by marcus_of_augustus
 #8

Technically a bad idea. Even very rich people can be naive about the fundamental nature of good money I guess. Fungibility is not just a difficult to spell word.

I can see this looking like the AOL venture of early internet days in the long term ... a walled garden, where the walls have crumbled, weeds grown and everybody's moved on elsewhere. And it may be that this is just some conscious window-dressing to legitimize bitcoin activity in the new, fast growing workshop out back.

Edit: and don't those lovely young boys look pretty in their shiny new suits and ties lined up in a row? An exquisite "road to hell is paved with good intentions" moment.

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November 13, 2013, 07:18:12 PM
 #9

It's only an overlay service, it can't be forced on anyone

Avalon is joining the program, as per the article. Assuming that means they're going to give up data on their existing customers, that sounds like forcing it on people to me. Same for any other company signing up.

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Carlton Banks
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November 13, 2013, 07:19:59 PM
 #10

I can see this looking like the AOL venture of early internet days in the long term ... a walled garden, where the walls have crumbled, weeds grown and everybody's moved on elsewhere. And it may be that this is just some conscious window-dressing to legitimize bitcoin activity in the new, fast growing workshop out back.

Exactly. Force sanitising on one legal jurisdiction, then watch how all the money flows to the places where it's not used. This is the kind of capital flight problem that can't be solved with aggressive tactics, or at least, without the most unprecedented ubiquity of aggressive tactics.

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November 13, 2013, 07:21:46 PM
 #11

Yifu talking about sanitazing bitcoins...

what a joke.
Carlton Banks
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November 13, 2013, 07:25:29 PM
 #12

It's only an overlay service, it can't be forced on anyone

Avalon is joining the program, as per the article. Assuming that means they're going to give up data on their existing customers, that sounds like forcing it on people to me. Same for any other company signing up.

The only information Avalon have are the identities and addresses used to pay one-off "clean" large sums. Mostly from several months ago. Avalon are also far from the front of the pack when it comes to their line of business anyhow, not unless they've got some game changing 20 or 14 nm chip up their sleeves, which looks a little unlikely right now.

They've also got a big deficit in trust capital to make up for, the majority of their customers got badly burned.

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November 13, 2013, 07:29:48 PM
 #13

The only information Avalon have are the identities and addresses used to pay one-off "clean" large sums. Mostly from several months ago.

My point is, if they convince companies to join this program, they have the ability to force their system on a lot of people. Not 100% coverage, but a lot of data anyway. I don't know if anyone is interested in joining up.

Selling out to advertisers shows you respect neither yourself nor the rest of us.
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November 13, 2013, 07:30:20 PM
 #14

All this is ignoring one very important development: there is to be a blockchain stored Identity Protocol at some time in the future anyway. It's opt in or out, and you can buy as many Id's as you like. Why would anyone trust a third party overlay to track coins and their previous owners, when the blockchain based solution solves more problems, isn't mandatory and doesn't impact fungibility?

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Mike Christ
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November 13, 2013, 07:33:47 PM
 #15

If they get it to work, it'll catch a large share of the uninformed masses just using bitcoin on common platforms. There's no way though it'll stop anyone from staying in the dark. That's why, in the end, this is snake-oil-software, no more, no less.

+100,000,000

There is no person on this planet who deals in shady business and isn't fully aware of all the risks involved.  As usual with these half-baked plots, only honest people get the shit end of the stick.

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.”
--B. Franklin

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November 13, 2013, 07:41:31 PM
 #16

The only information Avalon have are the identities and addresses used to pay one-off "clean" large sums. Mostly from several months ago.

My point is, if they convince companies to join this program, they have the ability to force their system on a lot of people. Not 100% coverage, but a lot of data anyway. I don't know if anyone is interested in joining up.

Let's see if Bitcoinstore.com joins up, they've probably got a measurable number and flow of customers compared to Avalon (who sold to less than 2000-3000 individuals as a guesstimate).

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November 13, 2013, 08:01:10 PM
 #17

So they plan to divide bitcoins to black and white and then make money letting dark guys legalize their btc ?
They probably should contact HSBC who will gladly accept their schemes.

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November 13, 2013, 08:17:35 PM
 #18

They're also inviting the worst possible outcome by trying to use draconian tactics; people refusing to co-operate with government at all. About any matter. The one thing they've forgotten is how resistant cryptocurrency is to confiscation. So, if a culture developed where people are fined as part of administering "justice" to consumers and retailers that don't comply, alot of people will prefer to keep their money, then move to a less authoritarian country.

The state and the financial sector lose so much from this trend we've started, but I think this sort of thing proves they're scared they may be outright losers. Truth is, they lost as soon as the concept was developed. Paradigm shift, bitches.

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November 13, 2013, 08:45:55 PM
 #19

I suppose the CORRECT response of the community should be to BOYCOTT any business that even remotely associates itself with this evil spynet.
Absolutely:

http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/11/is-it-time-to-boycott-all-us-bitcoin.html
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November 13, 2013, 09:41:34 PM
 #20

All businesses using this spynet will not reveal it publicly if they don’t want to be boycotted.

Saying that you don't trust someone because of their behavior is completely valid.
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