Mike Hearn, Foundation's Law & Policy Chair, is pushing blacklists right now

[NewLiberty]

... If you work for a corporation, your choices are going to be different to the guy running black markets and doing p2p trades. You just both value different feature sets and the software optimised in a different way.

From this article: https://letstalkbitcoin.com/the-regulation-of-bitcoin/

The corporation may well have much stronger privacy concerns than the black market, and can afford to push the legislature to preserve it.  They may have less to hide, but they probably have much more to protect.
Visibility into the quantity of trade and the particular business partners, or even their locations, can cost a large corporation billions in competitive losses.

[1714485030]

1714485030

[dewdeded]

Bla, bla, bla smart guy and who cares about his bitcoin achievments? If he now kills bitcoins. It doesn't make it better.

[Snail2]

Send your "dirty" BTC to a non US based exchange, buy LTC/PPC/XPM/whatevercoin, send you whatevercoins to an other exchange, sell it for BTC, withdraw you shiny clean BTC, then Mike, the Foundation, and the Land of the Free can roll up their lists tightly and use it as the most convenient for them .

[NewLiberty]

Send your "dirty" BTC to a non US based exchange, buy LTC/PPC/XPM/whatevercoin, send you whatevercoins to an other exchange, sell it for BTC, withdraw you shiny clean BTC, then Mike, the Foundation, and the Land of the Free can roll up their lists tightly and use it as the most convenient for them .

What about the poor fellow who buys them from the exchange?

[callem]

...
If you aren't whitelisted, the merchant can't accept you.

666 anyone?

...

base58(666) = BS  ... " Bitcoin System" ? or just coincidence?!  

[Rampion]

I suggest we (the community) blacklist all the coins of Mike Hearn and the other suckers at the Bitcoin Foundation.

Shame on them.

[callem]

This is how you fight Cryptolocker, Mickey:

http://malwaremustdie.blogspot.de/2013/11/tango-down-of-44-cryptolocker-cnc.html

(Hint: No need to change Bitcoin.)

+1^^. Why don't dollars get 'blamed' for illicit activity?

Eventually everyone will understand it's a law enforcement issue, not a currency issue.

[BCB]

This is how you fight Cryptolocker, Mickey:

http://malwaremustdie.blogspot.de/2013/11/tango-down-of-44-cryptolocker-cnc.html

(Hint: No need to change Bitcoin.)

+1^^. Why don't dollars get 'blamed' for illicit activity?

Eventually everyone will understand it's a law enforcement issue, not a currency issue.

You guy really need to read the senate testimony.  Not one law enforcement agency or regulator blamed bitcoin the protocol for anything.

http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/hearings/beyond-silk-road-potential-risks-threats-and-promises-of-virtual-currencies

"[FinCEN] recognized the innovation virtual currencies provide, and the benefits they might offer society" - Jennifer Shasky Calvery, Director, FinCEN.
http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/?id=e92d0cf1-9df0-44d9-b25a-d734547c0c30

"Digital currencies have the potential to support more efficient and transparent global commerce."
Edward Lowery III, Special Agent in Charge, U.S. Secret Service
http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/?id=5ce8c610-34ae-424b-b69d-52098f3edeca

"The Department of Justice recognizes that many virtual currency systems offer legitimate financial services and have the potential to promote more efficient global commerce."
Mythili Raman, Acting Assistant Attorney, U.S. Department of Justice.
http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/?id=5ce8c610-34ae-424b-b69d-52098f3edeca

knuckleheads...

[genjix]

This is fantastic news. I was expecting it for a long time, actually at the Amsterdam conference last week I was talking to a member of the Dutch police who had taken part in a panel, and mentioned I was waiting for DPR to show up in a US court at some point. I didn't think it'd happen a week later, but this outcome was eventually inevitable.

The point I made to Niels (the police guy) was that DPR had way too much confidence in the technologies he was using to keep him safe. I said I understood Tor and Bitcoin very well and there's no way I'd treat either of them as a silver bullet. And that's assuming NO mistakes. I didn't even know how I'd cash out. The best some people listening in could offer was "find someone who would help you cash out that's not an exchange". But where would you find someone capable of sinking non-trivial amounts of Bitcoins for dollars, outside of an exchange?

It's hard to tell from the documents to what extent he cashed out. Perhaps those details will come at trial. But given he was living with flat mates I guess his lifestyle was cheap and he probably didn't ever cash out into dollars in a big way - obviously lacking any fake IDs he didn't have any way to use the exchanges. This is also very good news. It is a strong argument that Bitcoin is not some super trivial way for criminals to make wild profits - despite the huge sums being quoted by the FBI agent, those are theoretical amounts of dollars he could have obtained if he'd had some way to do so, not amounts he actually made (given the tiny size of the Bitcoin economy).

By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme anarcho-capitalist tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!

mike, your bitcoin users are silk road users. why are you helping the police? they don't use bitcoin.

are you going to quit your job at google now it's public they are collaborating with the NSA. or does google pay too well? how much is the NSA offering bitcoin developers?

behind closed doors we don't know what's happening and who at which corporation is now being tasked to write code against bitcoin users to protect their business interests or even with a hefty salary from law enforcement themselves.

[RodeoX]

...
knuckleheads...

Some people seem to make paranoia about the government their religion. Like any zealot the facts have no persuasive effect. Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of criticisms of my government. But I don't find them malicious, just incompetent.  

[genjix]

But I don't find them malicious, just incompetent.

... corrupt lovers of power and control freaks.

[Realpra]

The fact that the foundation or Hearn has not come out and said "total misunderstanding, my bad" should tell everyone something.

These people can't WAIT to sell out.

[genjix]

You guy really need to read the senate testimony.  Not one law enforcement agency or regulator blamed bitcoin the protocol for anything.

...

knuckleheads...

did you see the task force?

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-09/13/digital-economy-task-force

The Task Force, which launched in August, is not solely focussed on child exploitation. It has developed working groups that aim to combat a range of illicit activities, to safeguard human rights and to encourage inter-agency coordination and law enforcement.

The report detailed how criminal and terrorist organisations have turned to digital currency to reap profits from drug trafficking, prostitution and the dissemination of child abuse images.

Steve Rubley, managing director, Government Segment for the Legal business of Thomson Reuters points out that the digital economy provides a plethora of new opportunities and is central to how business is conducted but there are also "dark corners" where drug cartels can easily launder money and human sex traffickers operate in near obscurity.

this is pandering in the hope of being spared from harsh treatment. nothing good will come of this.

bitcoin is what it is: world changing technology.

the printing press fundamentally altered old power structures against their will. so too will bitcoin. we haven't even begun to explore the possibilities it brings. we don't need to ask permission. the market is here and won't be stopped. we need to be bold and brazen in how we nurture this early and exciting technology.

it is a tool of the black market. it will transform humanity for the better. government education begins and ends with those statements - nothing more. we don't need anything the legacy system has to offer. sooner or later, the people will come around as the pull of bitcoin will be too strong. from the ashes of a corrupted system rises a bold new paradigm for global humanity.

[RodeoX]

But I don't find them malicious, just incompetent.

... corrupt lovers of power and control freaks.

That has not been my experience. I'm sure that many elected officials have that mindset, but my family members in the FBI for example are more like boyscouts. They want to do good. Sometimes it does not work out though. Take the disastrous drug war. Which has caused so much suffering.
I approach such problems with engagement. And I see it working in places like Colorado and Washington state. Don't fight the government, make it do your bidding.  

[genjix]

But I don't find them malicious, just incompetent.

... corrupt lovers of power and control freaks.

That has not been my experience. I'm sure that many elected officials have that mindset, but my family members in the FBI for example are more like boyscouts. They want to do good. Sometimes it does not work out though. Take the disastrous drug war. Which has caused so much suffering.
I approach such problems with engagement. And I see it working in places like Colorado and Washington state. Don't fight the government, make it do your bidding.  

I've had many many experiences with police. 80% are just doing a job to pay rent (so was Hitler's SS) and 20% love their job, going way beyond the call of duty to enforce laws and get at 'bad types' they don't like (sometimes bending or breaking the law). They break into houses, arrest people for assault, beat people up (off camera), follow and harass you, ... they are not all good people and I don't support their work which is mostly being a pawn of powerful interests that collaborate with wealthy groups to fuck you.

Here's 3 PRISM slides from the NSA:







I don't know what more kind of proof people need that the police are corrupt, and we don't need to help make their work easier with applying law to bitcoin (in their own interpreted way).

you know the blacklist in the UK which was originally only for child porn and now blocks 'hate speech', copyright infringement, 'bad porn' and the pirate bay was originally formed as a consensus amongst ISPs after the metropolitan police put pressure on Demon internet. the same steps are now happening with bitcoin and it's looking semi-legit with people justifying it. but even a cursory look at internet history will show you what the slippery slope this is and we must fight hard against this tooth and nail. not later, but now. now is the time to fight for your freedom, not later once everything is compromised.

[BCB]

Speaking of threats:

The recent hearings in Washington discussed:

Virtual Currency Emerging Threats Working Group (VCET).  Founded by the FBI in 2012 includes DEA, US Attorney's offices, Criminal Division's Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section and Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section.

I was told that it was three full floors in the FBI's Washington office.

[callem]

This is how you fight Cryptolocker, Mickey:

http://malwaremustdie.blogspot.de/2013/11/tango-down-of-44-cryptolocker-cnc.html

(Hint: No need to change Bitcoin.)

+1^^. Why don't dollars get 'blamed' for illicit activity?

Eventually everyone will understand it's a law enforcement issue, not a currency issue.

You guy really need to read the senate testimony.  Not one law enforcement agency or regulator blamed bitcoin the protocol for anything.
...
knuckleheads...

The comment was nothing to do with the senate hearing (which was overwhelmingly positive) - it was about black/red lists being endorsed by foundation members.

>> It's a law enforcement issue, not a bitcoin issue <<

Does anyone endorse tracking 'tainted' US banknote serial numbers?

[marcus_of_augustus]

...
knuckleheads...

Some people seem to make paranoia about the government their religion. Like any zealot the facts have no persuasive effect. Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of criticisms of my government. But I don't find them malicious, just incompetent.  

Really?

Did you not read the Snowden leaks? ... seems pretty fucking malicious to me ... unless it is just incompetence they happened to instigate an orwellian dragnet pan-opticon super-state apparatus?

Cognitive dissonance is what you should ask your shrink about ...

[BadBitcoin (James Sutton)]

Does anyone endorse tracking 'tainted' US banknote serial numbers?

Surely it's done.

Do I endorse it? In some cases (e.g. a bank robbery), sure.

Do I support supermarkets scanning the cash they receive through a checker to see if any of it is on a list? Even if it was feasible, I'm not sure what the point would be.

The problem is, "blacklisting" coins is actually completely worthless in the hands of a not completely incompetent fraudster, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to pretend that you traded your bad coins for something else by moving them between wallets and claiming that some "other" sold you those coins, or even a portion.

The whole "redlist" idea is literally worthless, theres no good that it could possibly do and the only thing it does is do harm. Mike, prove to me otherwise please, I can't see the reasoning.

[tvbcof]

The problem is, "blacklisting" coins is actually completely worthless in the hands of a not completely incompetent fraudster, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to pretend that you traded your bad coins for something else by moving them between wallets and claiming that some "other" sold you those coins, or even a portion.

The whole "redlist" idea is literally worthless, theres no good that it could possibly do and the only thing it does is do harm. Mike, prove to me otherwise please, I can't see the reasoning.

For the reasons you mentioned and others, x-listing is fairly worthless on it's own.  Most people who understand the solution probably easily understand this.

Coupled with systems which dismantle anonymity, however, x-listing could be highly effective at solving 'crime' and a lot of other things which many people consider maladies of the current implementation.

Anonymity is actually considered a bug and not a feature to a LOT of people and it is certainly not limited to crypto-currencies.  If Bitcoin could be evolved to a situation where the foundations of anonymity were weakened while it still retains it's leading role in the space, that would be ideal to some.  Other more general anonymity-centered attacks could then suck Bitcoin along for the ride.